Happy for you to do that; perhaps including US for comparison. But I note as ever NatalieSalat's posts are innuendo and propaganda full and fact absent.
General Israel/Palestine discussion thread - Part 4
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The Great Zaganza
Maledictorian
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I remember you insisting that histroy is irrelevant when it comes to the conflict - at least any history going back further than Oct 7th.
NatalieSalat
Thinker
At the least, Jerusalem is off the table for any conceivable Israeli government after Hamas's "stunt".
I would be perfectly happy to keep to the present day, but when people like Planigale put together a stupid series of recent historical events purporting to show Israel’s misbehaviour as a way of “understanding” (ie excusing) the attacks by Palestine, it needs to be called out.
Jews have been the victims of Muslim persecution and far worse since soon after the rise of Islam, continuing for centuries. The fact that Israel is able to successfully defend itself now hits a very raw nerve for a number of anti-Israel posters here. A number of whom have advocated for the elimination of Israel as a state.
Planigale, as evidenced by their last post, has no intention of dealing with the history of Muslim atrocities against Jews seriously.
This is my issue. If Planigale wants to keep with current events, I would be happy.
webfusion
Philosopher
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Hillary Clinton has a few words about the lack of historical context and the 'short-form' video inundation of young people, making them particularly susceptible to misinformation and lies.
www.yahoo.com
arthwollipot's introduction of a video that may be AI-altered is typical of this manifestation.
Hillary Clinton Says Young Americans Are Pro-Palestine Because They Watch ‘Totally Made Up’ Videos of Gaza Horrors
Clinton complained young Americans were becoming sympathetic towards Palestinians because they watch "totally made up" videos on social media.
arthwollipot's introduction of a video that may be AI-altered is typical of this manifestation.
d4m10n
Penultimate Amazing
I really don't think we can be "perfectly happy to keep to the present day" in any discussion where hardline activists want to claim all of the land—from the Jordan River to the Mediterranean Sea—on account of ancestral claims which go back further than the living memory of anyone in the discussion.
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Yes I get this, but to date the only commentary of the past has been “Israel/jews evil”.
d4m10n
Penultimate Amazing
This is to be expected from anyone who affirms that decolonization is invariably morally good and who manages to somehow discount the Muslim conquest of the Levant when deciding what counts as colonization which needs to be undone.
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If you have a coherent argument to make I will address it. If it is: Islam bad; I won't. I would ask you to remember many palestinians are christians, they are treated no differently than muslim Palestiians. Israel does not just abuse, kill, arrest muslim Palestinians but also christian Palestinians; even palestinian jews (see samaritans).
I would argue that the Palestinian struggle for independence is a classical decolonisation struggle of an indigenous people oppressed by a colonialist system. Not a religious struggle. Yes Israel identifies as a Jewish state and non-jews are discriminated against, but Palestine is a multi secular concept, Christian and Muslim and Jewish. The commonality being that they are indigenous peoples, not European colonialists displacing them.
Complete and utter ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊◊.
d4m10n
Penultimate Amazing
You seem to be claiming Jews are not descended from native Canaanite people. If so, where do you think they originated?
d4m10n
Penultimate Amazing
One could as easily argue that the Hebrew-speaking people were pushed out centuries ago by the Arabic-speaking people, bearing in mind that only one of those languages is native to the region.
arthwollipot
Observer of Phenomena, Pronouns: he/him
I still haven't seen an alternative translation of what the guy was saying. Like I said, I don't speak Hebrew, but the body language and hand gestures were consistent with the subtitles. The sentiment expressed is also consistent with what I have been informed about how Israelis, especially members of the Israeli Defence Force, think about Palestinians.
If you want me to believe that the subtitles were inaccurate, show me an accurate translation.
arthwollipot
Observer of Phenomena, Pronouns: he/him
Stop right there. Criticism of Israel is not criticism of Jews. It is not antisemitic to be anti-genocide.
Trausti
Master Poster
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I dunno. The "anti-genocide" crowd only seems to care when they can blame da joos. Nagorno-Karabakh? South Sudan? Crickets.
arthwollipot
Observer of Phenomena, Pronouns: he/him
That's a lie and you know it.
Trausti
Master Poster
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It's a lie to say that they care. The genocide in Nagorno-Karabakh and South Sudan was Muslims against Christians. The "anti-genocide" crowd ain't gonna protest against that.
Sure. And I suppose those advocating for the elimination of Israel as a state (as some here do) think this would be an entirely peaceful, violence free exercise….
And where have I mentioned antisemitism in this recent exchange? I have been talking about selecting only parts of history which may (but don’t always) cast Jews/Israel as a persecutor while ignoring the centuries when Jews have been victims.
Now you tell me, is “from the river to the sea” antisemitic or not? I and many others believe it to be as it advocates for the elimination of Israel and no doubt a large number of Jews.
arthwollipot
Observer of Phenomena, Pronouns: he/him
You know why there were fewer people protesting those. They weren't being plastered all over the news. Nobody here will say that they weren't horrific. What Israel is doing is big damn news. Of course there are more people talking about it.
I must have missed where someone here advocated for the elimination of Israel as a state.
The bit where you conflated criticism of Israel with criticism of Jews is where you brought up antisemitism. Also, nobody's forgetting the Holocaust.
It is certainly true that a large number of people do view it as antisemitic. Is there anybody here espousing that view?
If you want to discuss this start a new thread, by definition it is not 'Current Events'.
I have never said Israel nor Jews are evil. This is an absolute lie and I think you should apologise.
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Actually if you look at the genetics, the indigenous Jewish peoples such as Samaritans are the same as the indigenous Christian and Muslim peoples. Religion is not a fixed inheritable character. Many famous Jews from two thousand years ago became Christians, for centuries Christianity was the dominant monotheistic religion of Palestine and was literally an indigenous religion of Palestine. Many of the Jewish and Christian indigenes converted to Islam over the ensuing centuries. You cannot define whether someone is indigenous by their religion or language. How many people spoke Hebrew in Palestine in the middle ages?
I have no problems with the concept that the religion originated in Palestine, so did Christianity. That does not mean that everyone who is Jewish has ancestors resident in palestine for centuries. Nor does it mean that those residents of Palestine who were Jewish did not become Christian or Muslim
Likud of course promote a single state from the sea to the river; amazing how changing the order of words but not the meaning make the same concept both zionist and anti-semitic.
You are the one who started listing so-called history from many decades ago. Hardly current events.
So you can’t complain when others say it’s a self-serving and misleading list.
webfusion
Philosopher
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With GROK's answer, I cannot take the video on face value and assume that it's authentic.
While GROK could be wrong, it indicates the clip is A-I generated and no such answer was offered by this amputee. My understanding is the entire response was fabricated by a video manipulation program.
In other words, without the original to compare, what you posted could easily be a fake. It's now on you to prove it's accurate. It's not something hard -- what is the interviewee's identity? Where is the full interview? C'mon, this ain't too complex an assignment; let's see the proof that bolsters your effort to promulgate a video that's blatantly just demonizing Israelis (and IDF).
As for the remark that "this is how Israelis...think about Palestinians" -- I'm sure there are members of the Israeli public who would like for Palestinians to vanish from the face of the earth. Or, alternatively, Israelis would prefer to distance themselves away from Palestinians and move elsewhere.
One in four Israelis would move abroad, IDI survey says | The Jerusalem Post
The margin becomes even bigger with secular Jews, with 39% considering departing Israel, a number higher than the one registered among religious Jews.
www.jpost.com
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d4m10n
Penultimate Amazing
You have ducked my question, which was "[W]here do you think they originated?" as a people not as a faith.
If we're characterizing indigeneity based on genetic ancestry—which it sounds like you are—then we're going to have to wrap our heads around the genetics of the Levant.
Not just the Samaritans, though; have a look at this thread. To the best of my understanding, all of the diaspora Jewish populations tested are related to the fellahin who stayed in the Levant and converted to either Christianity or Islam. As the study authors point out, Palestinians, Bedouins, Druze, and various Jewish populations have a "shared genetic history of related Middle Eastern and non-Semitic Mediterranean ancestors who chose different religious and tribal affiliations." If this is correct, Israelis and Palestinians in the region have essentially the same goal: To construct a new nationalist identity in the region where their polytheistic Canaanite ancestors lived thousands of years ago prior to converting to one monotheism or another and then being subjugated by a series of foreign imperial powers such as the Greeks, Romans, Umayyads, Crusaders, Ayyubids, Turks, and Brits.
tl;dr — If the Jews, Christians, and Muslims of the region are all descended from the same indigenous peoples, then indigeneity isn't going to tell us much of anything about who should live in which parts of the Levant today; we'll have to consider other factors instead.
d4m10n
Penultimate Amazing
Does anyone here happen to live on non-stolen land? Even British people living in Great Britain must know that their Celtic and Germanic and French ancestors displaced earlier waves of settlers on those isles.
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You might find some frozen settlements where nobody wants to live, but I doubt it.
The evidence is that there was cultural replacement not physical displacement.
Exactly. Maybe some Falkland Islanders
I listed events involving the IDF since 1948, a party to current events. You want to discuss events since the seventh century across the whole of North Africa, Europe and the Near East. Actions by institutions no longer in existence. Can you see the difference? In a current events thread?
Icelanders, although settlement did involve a number of Irish slaves.
I don'y disagree with you.
But I would question whether e.g. Ethiopian Jews* who probably had an ancestor who lived in Palestine > 2,500 years ago are indigenous to palestine because of their religion, whilst those whose ancestors have been continually resident in Palestine but who are not Jewish are defined by some here as not indigenous.
*And only if they converted from the ancient Judaic tradition they practiced to a White European Judaism. An appallingly racist action. Israel has effectively destroyed Ethiopian Judaism.
arthwollipot
Observer of Phenomena, Pronouns: he/him
How far back do you want to go? If we reductio the ◊◊◊◊ out of this absurdum, all humans except a few who still live in East Africa settled elsewhere.
NatalieSalat
Thinker
1. I would never accuse you of being a friend of Hamas, and that was not the expression I used.
2. I don't think it's true that Hamas leaders have said their objective is a Palestinian state. They have said that their objective is to destroy Israel. If they wanted a Palestinian state, they should have said so in 2000 and 2008 when Arafat and Abbas were offered one, and rejected it.
3. If the Gaza Palestinians don't want to be ruled by Hamas, they need to stand up and say so. And they need to realise that the only people who can deliver them from Hamas rule are the Israelis. I don't see any sign that they accept that.
2. I don't think it's true that Hamas leaders have said their objective is a Palestinian state. They have said that their objective is to destroy Israel. If they wanted a Palestinian state, they should have said so in 2000 and 2008 when Arafat and Abbas were offered one, and rejected it.
3. If the Gaza Palestinians don't want to be ruled by Hamas, they need to stand up and say so. And they need to realise that the only people who can deliver them from Hamas rule are the Israelis. I don't see any sign that they accept that.
NatalieSalat
Thinker
"You know why there were fewer people protesting those. They weren't being plastered all over the news. Nobody here will say that they weren't horrific. What Israel is doing is big damn news. Of course there are more people talking about it."
Yes, black and brown people killing other brown and black people isn't news to most. So, the LTTE are now long gone.
Yes, black and brown people killing other brown and black people isn't news to most. So, the LTTE are now long gone.
arthwollipot
Observer of Phenomena, Pronouns: he/him
Sad but true.
And yet you can’t help but speculate on the Palestinians ancient right to occupy the land of Palestine…….
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