General Israel/Palestine discussion thread - Part 4

[arthwollipot]

It's a lie to say that they care. The genocide in Nagorno-Karabakh and South Sudan was Muslims against Christians. The "anti-genocide" crowd ain't gonna protest against that.

You know why there were fewer people protesting those. They weren't being plastered all over the news. Nobody here will say that they weren't horrific. What Israel is doing is big damn news. Of course there are more people talking about it.

Sure. And I suppose those advocating for the elimination of Israel as a state (as some here do) think this would be an entirely peaceful, violence free exercise….

I must have missed where someone here advocated for the elimination of Israel as a state.

And where have I mentioned antisemitism in this recent exchange? I have been talking about selecting only parts of history which may (but don’t always) cast Jews/Israel as a persecutor while ignoring the centuries when Jews have been victims.

The bit where you conflated criticism of Israel with criticism of Jews is where you brought up antisemitism. Also, nobody's forgetting the Holocaust.

Now you tell me, is “from the river to the sea” antisemitic or not? I and many others believe it to be as it advocates for the elimination of Israel and no doubt a large number of Jews.

It is certainly true that a large number of people do view it as antisemitic. Is there anybody here espousing that view?

 

[Planigale]

Evasion noted. But it’s not surprising you are not interested in addressing the persecution of Jews (and Christians) by Muslims over the centuries. Stay consistent with your “Israel/jews evil” commentary.

If you want to discuss this start a new thread, by definition it is not 'Current Events'.

I have never said Israel nor Jews are evil. This is an absolute lie and I think you should apologise.

 

[Planigale]

One could as easily argue that the Hebrew-speaking people were pushed out centuries ago by the Arabic-speaking people, bearing in mind that only one of those languages is native to the region.

Actually if you look at the genetics, the indigenous Jewish peoples such as Samaritans are the same as the indigenous Christian and Muslim peoples. Religion is not a fixed inheritable character. Many famous Jews from two thousand years ago became Christians, for centuries Christianity was the dominant monotheistic religion of Palestine and was literally an indigenous religion of Palestine. Many of the Jewish and Christian indigenes converted to Islam over the ensuing centuries. You cannot define whether someone is indigenous by their religion or language. How many people spoke Hebrew in Palestine in the middle ages?

 

[Planigale]

You seem to be claiming Jews are not descended from native Canaanite people. If so, where do you think they originated?

I have no problems with the concept that the religion originated in Palestine, so did Christianity. That does not mean that everyone who is Jewish has ancestors resident in palestine for centuries. Nor does it mean that those residents of Palestine who were Jewish did not become Christian or Muslim

 

[Planigale]

Sure. And I suppose those advocating for the elimination of Israel as a state (as some here do) think this would be an entirely peaceful, violence free exercise….

And where have I mentioned antisemitism in this recent exchange? I have been talking about selecting only parts of history which may (but don’t always) cast Jews/Israel as a persecutor while ignoring the centuries when Jews have been victims.

Now you tell me, is “from the river to the sea” antisemitic or not? I and many others believe it to be as it advocates for the elimination of Israel and no doubt a large number of Jews.

Likud of course promote a single state from the sea to the river; amazing how changing the order of words but not the meaning make the same concept both zionist and anti-semitic.

 

[lionking]

If you want to discuss this start a new thread, by definition it is not 'Current Events'.

I have never said Israel nor Jews are evil. This is an absolute lie and I think you should apologise.

You are the one who started listing so-called history from many decades ago. Hardly current events.

So you can’t complain when others say it’s a self-serving and misleading list.

 

[webfusion]

I still haven't seen an alternative translation of what the guy was saying. Like I said, I don't speak Hebrew, but the body language and hand gestures were consistent with the subtitles. The sentiment expressed is also consistent with what I have been informed about how Israelis, especially members of the Israeli Defence Force, think about Palestinians.

If you want me to believe that the subtitles were inaccurate, show me an accurate translation.

With GROK's answer, I cannot take the video on face value and assume that it's authentic.
While GROK could be wrong, it indicates the clip is A-I generated and no such answer was offered by this amputee. My understanding is the entire response was fabricated by a video manipulation program.

In other words, without the original to compare, what you posted could easily be a fake. It's now on you to prove it's accurate. It's not something hard -- what is the interviewee's identity? Where is the full interview? C'mon, this ain't too complex an assignment; let's see the proof that bolsters your effort to promulgate a video that's blatantly just demonizing Israelis (and IDF).

As for the remark that "this is how Israelis...think about Palestinians" -- I'm sure there are members of the Israeli public who would like for Palestinians to vanish from the face of the earth. Or, alternatively, Israelis would prefer to distance themselves away from Palestinians and move elsewhere.

One in four Israelis would move abroad, IDI survey says | The Jerusalem Post

The margin becomes even bigger with secular Jews, with 39% considering departing Israel, a number higher than the one registered among religious Jews.

www.jpost.com

 

[d4m10n]

I have no problems with the concept that the religion originated in Palestine, so did Christianity.

You have ducked my question, which was "[W]here do you think they originated?" as a people not as a faith.

You cannot define whether someone is indigenous by their religion or language.

If we're characterizing indigeneity based on genetic ancestry—which it sounds like you are—then we're going to have to wrap our heads around the genetics of the Levant.

Actually if you look at the genetics, the indigenous Jewish peoples such as Samaritans are the same as the indigenous Christian and Muslim peoples.

Not just the Samaritans, though; have a look at this thread. To the best of my understanding, all of the diaspora Jewish populations tested are related to the fellahin who stayed in the Levant and converted to either Christianity or Islam. As the study authors point out, Palestinians, Bedouins, Druze, and various Jewish populations have a "shared genetic history of related Middle Eastern and non-Semitic Mediterranean ancestors who chose different religious and tribal affiliations." If this is correct, Israelis and Palestinians in the region have essentially the same goal: To construct a new nationalist identity in the region where their polytheistic Canaanite ancestors lived thousands of years ago prior to converting to one monotheism or another and then being subjugated by a series of foreign imperial powers such as the Greeks, Romans, Umayyads, Crusaders, Ayyubids, Turks, and Brits.

tl;dr — If the Jews, Christians, and Muslims of the region are all descended from the same indigenous peoples, then indigeneity isn't going to tell us much of anything about who should live in which parts of the Levant today; we'll have to consider other factors instead.

 

[d4m10n]

Of course, when non-Indigenous Australians make this statement, we don't mean it to be taken literally. My friends who own their own homes are not going to hand them over to any Aboriginal person who knocks on their door, even if they agree, in theory, that they are living on stolen land. But it is an assertion which has wide support in Australia - and I broadly agree with it.

Does anyone here happen to live on non-stolen land? Even British people living in Great Britain must know that their Celtic and Germanic and French ancestors displaced earlier waves of settlers on those isles.

 

[lionking]

Does anyone here happen to live on non-stolen land? Even British people living in Great Britain must know that their Celtic and Germanic and French ancestors displaced earlier waves of settlers on those isles.

You might find some frozen settlements where nobody wants to live, but I doubt it.

 

[Planigale]

Does anyone here happen to live on non-stolen land? Even British people living in Great Britain must know that their Celtic and Germanic and French ancestors displaced earlier waves of settlers on those isles.

The evidence is that there was cultural replacement not physical displacement.

 

[jimbob]

Does anyone here happen to live on non-stolen land? Even British people living in Great Britain must know that their Celtic and Germanic and French ancestors displaced earlier waves of settlers on those isles.

Exactly. Maybe some Falkland Islanders

 

[Planigale]

You are the one who started listing so-called history from many decades ago. Hardly current events.

So you can’t complain when others say it’s a self-serving and misleading list.

I listed events involving the IDF since 1948, a party to current events. You want to discuss events since the seventh century across the whole of North Africa, Europe and the Near East. Actions by institutions no longer in existence. Can you see the difference? In a current events thread?

 

[Planigale]

Exactly. Maybe some Falkland Islanders

Icelanders, although settlement did involve a number of Irish slaves.

 

[Planigale]

You have ducked my question, which was "[W]here do you think they originated?" as a people not as a faith.

If we're characterizing indigeneity based on genetic ancestry—which it sounds like you are—then we're going to have to wrap our heads around the genetics of the Levant.

Not just the Samaritans, though; have a look at this thread. To the best of my understanding, all of the diaspora Jewish populations tested are related to the fellahin who stayed in the Levant and converted to either Christianity or Islam. As the study authors point out, Palestinians, Bedouins, Druze, and various Jewish populations have a "shared genetic history of related Middle Eastern and non-Semitic Mediterranean ancestors who chose different religious and tribal affiliations." If this is correct, Israelis and Palestinians in the region have essentially the same goal: To construct a new nationalist identity in the region where their polytheistic Canaanite ancestors lived thousands of years ago prior to converting to one monotheism or another and then being subjugated by a series of foreign imperial powers such as the Greeks, Romans, Umayyads, Crusaders, Ayyubids, Turks, and Brits.

tl;dr — If the Jews, Christians, and Muslims of the region are all descended from the same indigenous peoples, then indigeneity isn't going to tell us much of anything about who should live in which parts of the Levant today; we'll have to consider other factors instead.

I don'y disagree with you.

But I would question whether e.g. Ethiopian Jews* who probably had an ancestor who lived in Palestine > 2,500 years ago are indigenous to palestine because of their religion, whilst those whose ancestors have been continually resident in Palestine but who are not Jewish are defined by some here as not indigenous.

*And only if they converted from the ancient Judaic tradition they practiced to a White European Judaism. An appallingly racist action. Israel has effectively destroyed Ethiopian Judaism.

 

[arthwollipot]

Does anyone here happen to live on non-stolen land? Even British people living in Great Britain must know that their Celtic and Germanic and French ancestors displaced earlier waves of settlers on those isles.

How far back do you want to go? If we reductio the ◊◊◊◊ out of this absurdum, all humans except a few who still live in East Africa settled elsewhere.

 

[NatalieSalat]

1. I would never accuse you of being a friend of Hamas, and that was not the expression I used.

2. I don't think it's true that Hamas leaders have said their objective is a Palestinian state. They have said that their objective is to destroy Israel. If they wanted a Palestinian state, they should have said so in 2000 and 2008 when Arafat and Abbas were offered one, and rejected it.

3. If the Gaza Palestinians don't want to be ruled by Hamas, they need to stand up and say so. And they need to realise that the only people who can deliver them from Hamas rule are the Israelis. I don't see any sign that they accept that.

 

[NatalieSalat]

"You know why there were fewer people protesting those. They weren't being plastered all over the news. Nobody here will say that they weren't horrific. What Israel is doing is big damn news. Of course there are more people talking about it."

Yes, black and brown people killing other brown and black people isn't news to most. So, the LTTE are now long gone.

 

[arthwollipot]

Yes, black and brown people killing other brown and black people isn't news to most.

Sad but true.

 

[lionking]

If you want to discuss this start a new thread, by definition it is not 'Current Events'.

And yet you can’t help but speculate on the Palestinians ancient right to occupy the land of Palestine…….