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General Israel/Palestine discussion thread - Part 4

planigale, your concerns are noted.

"Project Sunrise" is about to be unveiled. (with a 32-slide PowerPoint presentation)
Will Palestinians seize this chance to advance? Place yer bets.
The report of this program being prepared emerged after meetings Friday in Miami between Witkoff and Kushner and representatives from Egypt, Turkey and Qatar on the future of Gaza and the proposed international force.
 
planigale, your concerns are noted.

"Project Sunrise" is about to be unveiled. (with a 32-slide PowerPoint presentation)
Will Palestinians seize this chance to advance? Place yer bets.
The report of this program being prepared emerged after meetings Friday in Miami between Witkoff and Kushner and representatives from Egypt, Turkey and Qatar on the future of Gaza and the proposed international force.
it seems that the world keeps offering them something they have never asked for. What evidence is there that they want anything other than to hate and kill?
 
jt512, Palestinians worldwide are awaiting an organized program for them to be relieved of their 'refugee camps' in Lebanon, Jordan, Judea&samaria, e.J'lem, syria, and of course, Gaza.

Egypt holds the keys to this. They divided Rafah and cut off Gaza in 1982, creating a bizarre situation of 'occupying Palestinian land' (across the Rafah/Philadelphi Corridor in N.Sinai) without anyone even noticing.

Well, Kushner noticed.
He certainly noticed, as did senior White House aide Josh Gruenbaum.
Mr. Gruenbaum is credited as being the author of "Project Sunrise" (an odd name for Gaza's rejuvenation, because there's no sunrise over the water in that part of the world ---- just a spectacular sunset)
What is the current WH aim in all of this? Nationbuilding seems to be their path ahead, it sure seems.

Hatred and violence is not going to disappear, jt512. Not ever. Not so long as two religions vie for the control of the revered Temple Mount.

The best thing now is to BYPASS the Palestinian claims to that 35-acre public park.
Bring Saudi Royal Guardsmen (in full dress-parade regalia) to be the ceremonial caretakers/overseers, in conjunction with the Jordanian Hashemite King who manages the WAQF, as part of the status quo of the site.

Then build the Temple Mount cable-cars/tramway (cite needed) and open new tourism transit corridors from Hebron (a few minutes down the road) as well as revitalizing the road into Bethlehem. All being made accessible from Gaza via high-speed maglev trains and PRT lines.

Gruenbaum looks at this as an opportunity to invest billions.
HAMAS sees it as their worst nightmare, because it excludes them from having further military options.
 
I don't dispute that Paestinians and other Arabs (and European Christians) have carried out anti-Semitic attacks and crimes including terrorism. But the claim that everything started 07/10 and that the long history of crimes on both sides can be ignored (except if it reflects badly on Palestinians) is nonsense.
My point was actually "10/7 is just the biggest recent example from a long history of Hamas/Palestine attacking Israel to no productive end".

Also, "I don't dispute" is not the same as "Hamas did X, Y, and Z bad things". Especially when I notice you're perfectly willing to describe, in detail, the bad things you think Israel did, and blame them for Hamas' actions.

You may choose to dismiss the evidence of torture, extrajudicial executions and use of human shields by the IDF and Israeli government, but it doesn't mean those things haven't happened.
Again with the moral grandstanding instead of discussing the substance of my criticisms, which was "this is irrelevant to the points I made". In fact, what was the last thing I said in that post?

I believe this is the part where someone is morally outraged that I'm dismissing evidence of Israel Bad, and ignores everything else I just said about the relevance.​

There were armed guards and IDF reservists at the Nova festival, applying the IDF logic justifies the attack on the festival even if it meant there were significant collateral (civilian) deaths
Except Hamas militants weren't attacking the IDF forces, with civilians as collateral damage.

They were there specifically to attack, kill, and kidnap civilians.

As much as anti-Israel folks love to ignore the fact, Israel goes out of its way to warn Palestinians before attacks, and has for a very long time, even when it makes those attacks less effective.

And then Hamas tells locals to ignore those warnings, and blames Israel for the deaths.

As I already pointed out, and you are ignoring.

Hamas arose from a non-violent group because non-violence was seen as a failed approach. Israel ignored Hamas offer of a prolonged (hundred years) cease fire and didn't even attempt to negotiate for peace. Hamas tried to end the war before it started, Israel showed no interest.

Leaving aside the fact that I can't find evidence of this besides one PDF linked on Wikipedia which claims Hamas would still never formally recognize Israel (page 238)...Why exactly should Israel trust people who hate Israel?

After, again, decades of aggression and attacks? Including possibly the deadliest attack on Jewish people since the Holocaust?

Hamas keeps trying to attack a much bigger, stronger opponent, and playing victim. Violence is demonstrably worse than non-violence, because it gets more people on their side killed.

Also, it's hilarious to see this when you later dismissed claims of Hamas hiding baby food as "Israeli propaganda". And your counter-evidence was "some doctor said Israeli security forces confiscated the baby powder they were carrying".

We didn't know who else they did it to, we didn't know the reason, we don't know how widespread it was, but you present that as proof positive that Hamas could not also confiscate baby powder, much less do it more than Israel.

Which...is not how it works.

If your standard is that the IDF only has to be marginally more ethical than Hamas, you have lost, true or not: a State has to let itself be judged by much higher standards than a terrorist organization. By making the comparison, you have already acknowledged that Israel is committing war crimes and crimes against humanity.
So Hamas is not the legitimate government of Gaza, just a terrorist group?

So it has no moral right to speak for the people of Palestine, much less to act in their "defense"?
Did you actually think this through?

Also, who are you responding to? I didn't say or imply or think anything like this. You have this profoundly irritating habit of saying things like this to nobody in particular.

One, citation needed. Two, 23,000 people killed in Gaza in 2024.
You say this while making multiple claims on this page that you provide not a single source for. Not to mention when you linked to a video you admitted you could not verify.

Also, claiming every single person who dies of exposure is Israel's fault is, at best, what Sagan would call an extraordinary claim.

You also ignored webfusions points about the Egypt crossing, to blatantly try to morally grandstand (again) using a screenshot of some guy's tweet with no evidence whatsoever.

Gee, I wonder why you would try to change the subject at that point.
 
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Your original statement was factually wrong
To be clear, my original claim was that no one is living on land that was not originally settled by other tribes.

If you want to make a specific claim about cultural displacement in some specific time and place then by all means drop a link to the relevant research. It might even be usefully analogous to the displacement of Hebrew speaking monotheists by Arabic speaking monotheists elsewhere in the world.
 
If we reductio the ◊◊◊◊ out of this absurdum, all humans except a few who still live in East Africa settled elsewhere.
I'm not making any arguments from "stolen land" since it tends to lead to absurdities.

Almost no one has a moral or legal right to resettle themselves in the lands of their ancestors.

If my kids wanted to move to where their Lenape ancestors lived, they'd have to buy or rent a place when they got there.

This is also true for the lands of their British, Irish, and Spanish ancestors, although in those cases they'd need an entry visa as well.
 
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Create your own facts to excuse war crimes.
1) Invent black clothes
2) Invent the fact that there isn't a cease fire
3) Invent the fact that he had crossed the yellow line.
4) Invent the fact that the IDF hadn't crossed the yellow line line. (Remember the yellow line is beyond the withdrawal line that the IDF are supposed to have withdrawn to, within 'Palestinian Space'; the IDF had crossed the yellow line so were well beyond where they were required to be.)
5) Even if he was an enemy combatant (which he wasn't) the IDF are required to render aid under IHL. They are also required to treat the bodies of dead persons properly.

Another reminder to you that there is no international law because there is no world government or world police and despite weird claims by present-day leftist intellectuals, treaties and conventions only apply to countries that have ratified them. And countries can ratify them with attached reservations and withdraw from them.

* Israel: Population 10 million, including 2 million Muslims (up from 150,000 in 1948). About 400 mosques.

* Arab world: Population 450 million, including 4,000 Jews (down from 900,000). There are functioning synagogues in Morocco and Tunisia, very few elsewhere. One has recently been opened in the UAE for foreign residents.

This first photo from 2016 shows the Hassan Bek Mosque in Tel Aviv. So far as I know it is the only mosque in Tel Aviv proper, which was founded in 1906 as a Jewish city. There are six mosques in Yafo, a Tel Aviv suburb which was formerly the Arab town of Jaffa and still has about 15,000 Arab residents.

The second photo from 2009 shows the enormous Sha'ar Hashamayim Synagogue in Cairo, which once served about 80,000 Jews but which has been closed and empty since 1956. Both synagogues are still legally the property of an Egyptian Jewish community which no longer exists. Many other synagogues in the Arab world have been destroyed.

As we are constantly reminded, about 700,000 Palestinian Arabs fled or were expelled from the territory which became Israel during the 1947-48 war. Their descendants, now numbering 5.9 million, are still officially classed as refugees. It's less well known that of the 900,000 Jews living in the Muslim world in 1945, the great majority were expelled (after being stripped of their property) at that time or over the following decade. These included Jews not just from the Arab states, but also from Iran, Turkey, Afghanistan and Pakistan. About 650,000 settled in Israel, while about 200,000 from North Africa settled in France. Their descendants (now also in the millions) are not classed as refugees and have made new lives for themselves.

These events could be seen as a population exchange between Israel and the Arab-Muslim world, rather like the exchange (involving 1.6 million people) between Greece and Turkey in the 1920s. Although that exchange was agreed by the Greek and Turkish governments, it was imposed on the affected populations, often by force. In the long run, however, it benefited both countries. The same might be said of the Arab-Jewish exchange if the politics of the Arab-Israel conflict had not dictated that several generations of Palestinians should not be resettled but instead should be held as hostages in UNRWA camps.

It may seem an unlikely proposition in the age of Netanyahu, when "Zionism" has become a dirty word in the mouths of all right-thinking leftists around the world, but it is a fact that Zionism and socialism were once closely aligned. Many of the pioneers of the Zionist movement were socialists, and socialist parties dominated the modern Jewish community in Palestine and Israel from its foundations all the way down to the 1977 election.

This history has been somewhat obscured by the fact that the three best-known figures in Zionist history - Theodor Herzl (1860-1904), Chaim Weizmann (1874-1952) and Ze'ev Jabotinsky (1880-1940) - were not socialists. Herzl was a conservative, Weizmann a liberal, and Jabotinsky a right-wing nationalist. But none of these three actually lived in the Land of Israel. The leadership of the Yishuv (the Jewish community in Ottoman and Mandate Palestine), always came from the labour movement.

From the early 1930s the dominant figure in the Yishuv was David Ben-Gurion (1886-1973), who in 1948 became Israel's first prime minister. Ben-Gurion came from what was already a long tradition of Jewish socialism. Not all Jewish socialists were Zionists. The largest Jewish socialist movement, the Bund*, was anti-Zionist, although in the face of persecution by both Nazis and Stalinists, many Bundists finished up in Israel anyway. But many Zionists were socialists, and many Jewish socialists were Zionists. Most non-Jewish socialist and labour parties (notably the French Socialists and British Labour) sympathised with Zionist aspirations.

Moritz (later Moses) Hess (1812-75) may be regarded as the father of socialist Zionism. He was a close friend of Karl Marx and a mentor to Friedrich Engels. With Marx, he took part in the failed German democratic revolution in 1848. His book "Rome and Jerusalem" (1862) correctly predicted that the rise of German nationalism would prove hostile to the Jews, and advocated a socialist Jewish commonwealth in Palestine. This was 30 years before Herzl's better-known book "The Jewish State" (1896).

Nachman Syrkin (1868-1924) led the socialist faction at the first Zionist Congress in Basle in 1897. In "The Jewish Question and the Jewish Socialist State" (1898) he argued that only the labour movement could build a Jewish state, and his advocacy of collective farming led to the establishment of the first kibbutz at Degania in 1910.

Dov Ber Borochov (1881-1917) was the founder of the Poale Zion (Workers of Zion) party. He was not just a socialist but a rigorous Leninist. In "The National Question and the Class Struggle" (1905) he argued that the Jews of Europe could only be emancipated by class struggle in their own state. He welcomed the Russian revolution and returned to Russia to fight for the Bolsheviks, but died of pneumonia in Kyiv. His ideas were highly influential in the Yishuv in the 1920s and 30s.

Berl Katznelson (1887-1944) was one of the founders of the Histadrut trade union federation, which dominated life in Mandate Palestine and through the first 30 years of Israeli statehood, and also a founder of the Mapai (Labor) party. Through the Histadrut he established Israel's socialised health system. He was a major influence on Ben-Gurion, Golda Meir and other Israeli leaders.

David Ben-Gurion (1886-1973) was born in Poland and emigrated to Ottoman Syria in 1906. He was an active Zionist from his school days, and also a revolutionary socialist. In 1923 he visited the Soviet Union, hoping to meet his hero, Trotsky, but was unable to do so. Later he became a more orthodox democratic socialist. He always saw Zionism and socialism as not just compatible, but essential to each other. The deaths of Haim Arlosoroff (1899-1933) and Katznelson left him as the undisputed leader of the labour movement and of the Yishuv. Although Weizmann remained the international face of Zionism, Ben-Gurion was its real leader from the 1930s until his death.

All of these leaders discussed the issue of the Arab population of Palestine. They argued (correctly) that Palestine was a poor, backward, thinly populated area which could absorb Jewish immigrants without displacing the Arab population. They argued (correctly) that Jewish immigration and investment would create growth and raise the living standards of the Arabs. They argued (correctly, at least at first) that the Arabs did not have a national consciousness and that Jews and Arabs could work together to create a socialist commonwealth. Like all socialists, they believed (incorrectly) that class was more important than nationality. They failed to foresee the rise of Palestinian nationalism after the establishment of the Mandate, and when it did arise, they failed to cope with it.

In all these assumptions the socialist Zionists were opposed by Jabotinsky, who argued that if the Jews wanted Palestine, they would have to fight both the Arabs and the British to get it. He also said that socialism would fail in Palestine as it would everywhere. The socialists bitterly resented Jabotinsky's eloquent attacks on their principles - Ben-Gurion called him "the Jewish Hitler." (Jabotinsky did have fascist sympathies in the 1920s but was a convinced democrat.) In the long run Jabotinsky was proved right, and his disciples Begin, Shamir, Sharon and Netanyahu have governed Israel for most of the last 40 years.

In the 1930s and 40s the socialist Zionists grappled with the conflict between their ideals and reality they faced on the ground. After the massacres of 1929 and 1936-39 they had few illusions about a Jewish-Arab socialist commonwealth. (Socialism has never had any appeal in the Arab-Islamic world, although dictators like Saddam and Assad claimed that their despotic statist regimes were "Arab socialism.") But they refused to accept Jabotinsky's prediction that the Arabs would have to be defeated.

This explains the incoherence of the Jewish leadership's attitude to the Arabs during the 1947-48 War of Independence. While in Jaffa, Lydda and Ramle the Arabs were being driven out at gunpoint, in Haifa the Jewish mayor was imploring the Arabs not to flee to Lebanon (they mostly fled anyway, but many came back). Contrary to later assertions, there was no plan to drive all the Arabs out of the Jewish state, which is why there were still 150,000 Arabs in Israel when the war ended. Today their descendants number 2.1 million.

The labour movement and its party Mapai ran Israel until Menachem Begin won the 1977 election. The last Labor prime minister, Ehud Barak, lost office in 2001 after Yasser Arafat's walkout at the Camp David summit. Labor staked all on the "land for peace" principle, and when Arafat sank that policy, Labor support collapsed and has never recovered. In July this year the remnants of the Labor party were absorbed into a new centre-left party, The Democrats. This brings to an end more than a century of socialist Zionism, although there are still some kibbutzim that are run as collective farms.

Meanwhile, in a process that began in the wake of the 1967 war and has steadily accelerated since, the international left has turned against Israel and Zionism. Parties of the left now uncritically endorse the Palestinian narrative that accuses Israel of "apartheid" and "genocide." The call to destroy Israel, drive out its 7 million Jewish inhabitants and establish a Jew-free Palestinian state "from the river to the sea" is now part of the standard rhetoric of the left everywhere. The Gaza war has raised the left's hatred of Zionism and Zionist Jews to new levels of hysteria and violence, particularly on the campuses of elite universities. It is now impossible to be accepted as part of the left without endorsing the slogans of genocidal anti-Zionism.

Part of the explanation for this is of course that Israel now has a militantly right-wing nationalist government, which people on the left understandably dislike (as do I). But the anti-Zionist turn also reflects the long-term degeneration of the left as a political force. With the disappearance of the old industrial working class and the decline of the trade unions, the left is now dominated by a new intellectual class based in the universities, whose main preoccupation is identity politics. Now that the left is completely divorced from whatever remains of the working class, the main focus of left activism is now "solidarity" with a succession of nasty Third World regimes and insurgencies. The Palestinians have successfully played up to this trend by posing as an oppressed people, while of course giving very short shrift to any symptoms of leftism or identity politics in the areas they control (as "Queers for Palestine" seem unable to notice).


As for the ICC:

1. I don't agree that courts should determine their own jurisdiction. That's how the US Supreme Court became the politicised monster it is today. Courts are instruments of public policy and their jurisdiction should be set by legislation. Judges are not politicians and should be prevented from acting as such.

2. We live in a world of sovereign states (the "Westphalian system"). We do not have a world government with jurisdiction over all states. States can choose to cede some of their sovereignty to supranational bodies (like the EU), but they can't be forced to.

3. Israel withdrew its signature on the ICC treaty precisely because it feared it would be weaponised by anti-Israel governments (who appoint ICC judges) in this way.

4. Israel (unlike most of the countries which attack it) has a robust independent judiciary which can and does punish Israelis who commit human rights violations.

5. I don't agree that Israel is "disrespecting the rule of law." Between states, laws only apply to those states who agree to be bound by them. Israel is a party to the Genocide Convention, so the ICJ clearly had jurisdiction in that case. But since Israel is not a party to the ICC treaty, the ICC has no jurisdiction over it (and does not claim to). The only way the ICC has bought its way into this case is by recognising the "State of Palestine" a fictitious and non-functional state which claims to govern Gaza.


989.jpg678.jpg
 
Who cares about civilian deaths? That's a very damning question. A very damning question, which reveals a lot about your moral status, or complete lack thereof. You claim to be righteous, and then you ask "who cares how many civilians were killed?". You are not righteous.

If dim-bulbs such as you had been around during WW2, we would not have fought the Axis because civilian infrastructure was being destroyed and lives were being lost. Due to Allied bombing

The conchies got what they merited. "Lions led by donkeys" was always a politically motivated myth.
 
These four photos show the Israeli cities of Yafo (Jaffa), Akko (Acre), Nasrat (Nazareth) and Be'er-Sheva (Beersheba). Every time photos of these cities appear online, multiple comments appear, claiming that they are in a mythical country called "Palestine." Sometimes I ignore these people, sometimes I argue with them, but nothing deters them. It's evident that many of them, particularly those living in Muslim countries, have no knowledge at all of the history of these cities or of Israel.


The sad part about this is that all four of these cities once were in Palestine, and would still be in a Palestinian state today if the Palestinian Arabs and their allies in the Arab states had accepted the 1947 UN Partition Plan. (See the map I posted here a few days ago.) Instead they rejected the Plan, and immediately (as in, the day after the UN vote) began to attack Jewish towns and farms, launching the war that ended in their total defeat and the permanent loss of these cities to Israel.


It is frequently said that the Jewish leadership only accepted the Partition Plan because they knew the Arabs would reject it, and that they always intended to take possession of as much of Mandate Palestine as they could. Israelis sometimes deny this, but it's perfectly true. David Ben-Gurion, the leader of the Jewish community in Palestine, welcomed the UN vote as "the greatest day in Jewish history," and joined the crowds in Tel Aviv dancing in the streets. But he also met with his military command and told them to prepare for war, not just with the Palestinian Arab militias, but also with Egypt, Syria and Transjordan. When Arab forces attack us, he said, we should seize their villages, expel their populations, and not allow them to return.


By rejecting the Partition Plan, and instead choosing to start a war they had no hope of winning, the Arabs played right into Ben-Gurion's hands, as he knew they would. They did so again in 1967, 1973 and 2023.
In the event, the Israelis didn't need to expel most the Arab population of Palestine. Certainly there were some expulsions, notably at Lod (Lydda) and Ramle, but in most places the Arabs fled in panic long before they saw an Israeli soldier, with the elite families leading the exodus to Lebanon, Syria, Transjordan and Egypt. When Ben-Gurion visited Haifa in May 1948, he found the Arab half of the city abandoned. He wrote: "How could tens of thousands of people, without any sufficient reason, leave their city, homes and wealth in such a panic?"


References: Benny Morris: "The Birth of the Palestinian Refugee Problem Revisited"; Tom Segev, "A State at Any Cost," an excellent biography of Ben-Gurion.

It's been over seventy-eight years since the UN Partition Plan for Mandate Palestine. If the Palestinian Arabs and the Arab states had accepted the plan, there would have been a Palestinian state these past 78 years (much larger than any state they can now hope to achieve), and no Arab-Israel wars or conflicts. But no, instead they chose to launch a "war of extermination" (to quote the Arab League of the time) against the Jews, in which of course they were defeated. Instead of accepting any kind of settlement, the Arabs took an all-or-nothing gamble. When you gamble all-or-nothing, and you lose, you get nothing, which is what the Palestinians now have.


That’s not to mention the Arab rejection of the Peel commission recommendation of 1937 under which a Jewish state would receive about 20 percent of the land reluctantly accepted by the Zionist leadership but rejected by the Arabs.


I keep pointing out these inconvenient facts to some on this thread but all I get back is denial, evasion and insults. Possibly we all need some new friends who are not reality-impaired.

8nl.jpg9mm.jpg10no.jpg11pq.jpg
 

Fun fact: you can get hypothermia at temperatures up to 20°C, in wet conditions.

Fun Fact, Gazans can leave.

Trump's oft-threatened "hell to pay" includes that option.

The current calm is just an illusion.

HAMAS fangirls & fanbois are plentiful, and their ranks have swelled in Canada and the USA.
 
Fun Fact, who says it's their homeland? Gaza is a refugee byway. UNRWA failed in their mission, with the result of 'camps' still existing today, not just in Gaza, but elsewhere as well.
Half of Gazans are done with it and would readily take off for other pastures. Give them exit visas to third-countries who can provide shelter and food and medical, and let's relieve these wretched souls of their distressed and cold and windy and rainy conditions.

Israel can only do so much, as this situation is untenable in the long run. Everyone says so.
Why cling to a sinking ship? Time to abandon the SS HAMAS and seek some semblance of safety for themselves and their children.

 
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Another reminder to you that there is no international law because there is no world government or world police and despite weird claims by present-day leftist intellectuals, treaties and conventions only apply to countries that have ratified them. And countries can ratify them with attached reservations and withdraw from them.

* Israel: Population 10 million, including 2 million Muslims (up from 150,000 in 1948). About 400 mosques.

* Arab world: Population 450 million, including 4,000 Jews (down from 900,000). There are functioning synagogues in Morocco and Tunisia, very few elsewhere. One has recently been opened in the UAE for foreign residents.

This first photo from 2016 shows the Hassan Bek Mosque in Tel Aviv. So far as I know it is the only mosque in Tel Aviv proper, which was founded in 1906 as a Jewish city. There are six mosques in Yafo, a Tel Aviv suburb which was formerly the Arab town of Jaffa and still has about 15,000 Arab residents.

The second photo from 2009 shows the enormous Sha'ar Hashamayim Synagogue in Cairo, which once served about 80,000 Jews but which has been closed and empty since 1956. Both synagogues are still legally the property of an Egyptian Jewish community which no longer exists. Many other synagogues in the Arab world have been destroyed.

As we are constantly reminded, about 700,000 Palestinian Arabs fled or were expelled from the territory which became Israel during the 1947-48 war. Their descendants, now numbering 5.9 million, are still officially classed as refugees. It's less well known that of the 900,000 Jews living in the Muslim world in 1945, the great majority were expelled (after being stripped of their property) at that time or over the following decade. These included Jews not just from the Arab states, but also from Iran, Turkey, Afghanistan and Pakistan. About 650,000 settled in Israel, while about 200,000 from North Africa settled in France. Their descendants (now also in the millions) are not classed as refugees and have made new lives for themselves.

These events could be seen as a population exchange between Israel and the Arab-Muslim world, rather like the exchange (involving 1.6 million people) between Greece and Turkey in the 1920s. Although that exchange was agreed by the Greek and Turkish governments, it was imposed on the affected populations, often by force. In the long run, however, it benefited both countries. The same might be said of the Arab-Jewish exchange if the politics of the Arab-Israel conflict had not dictated that several generations of Palestinians should not be resettled but instead should be held as hostages in UNRWA camps.

It may seem an unlikely proposition in the age of Netanyahu, when "Zionism" has become a dirty word in the mouths of all right-thinking leftists around the world, but it is a fact that Zionism and socialism were once closely aligned. Many of the pioneers of the Zionist movement were socialists, and socialist parties dominated the modern Jewish community in Palestine and Israel from its foundations all the way down to the 1977 election.

This history has been somewhat obscured by the fact that the three best-known figures in Zionist history - Theodor Herzl (1860-1904), Chaim Weizmann (1874-1952) and Ze'ev Jabotinsky (1880-1940) - were not socialists. Herzl was a conservative, Weizmann a liberal, and Jabotinsky a right-wing nationalist. But none of these three actually lived in the Land of Israel. The leadership of the Yishuv (the Jewish community in Ottoman and Mandate Palestine), always came from the labour movement.

From the early 1930s the dominant figure in the Yishuv was David Ben-Gurion (1886-1973), who in 1948 became Israel's first prime minister. Ben-Gurion came from what was already a long tradition of Jewish socialism. Not all Jewish socialists were Zionists. The largest Jewish socialist movement, the Bund*, was anti-Zionist, although in the face of persecution by both Nazis and Stalinists, many Bundists finished up in Israel anyway. But many Zionists were socialists, and many Jewish socialists were Zionists. Most non-Jewish socialist and labour parties (notably the French Socialists and British Labour) sympathised with Zionist aspirations.

Moritz (later Moses) Hess (1812-75) may be regarded as the father of socialist Zionism. He was a close friend of Karl Marx and a mentor to Friedrich Engels. With Marx, he took part in the failed German democratic revolution in 1848. His book "Rome and Jerusalem" (1862) correctly predicted that the rise of German nationalism would prove hostile to the Jews, and advocated a socialist Jewish commonwealth in Palestine. This was 30 years before Herzl's better-known book "The Jewish State" (1896).

Nachman Syrkin (1868-1924) led the socialist faction at the first Zionist Congress in Basle in 1897. In "The Jewish Question and the Jewish Socialist State" (1898) he argued that only the labour movement could build a Jewish state, and his advocacy of collective farming led to the establishment of the first kibbutz at Degania in 1910.

Dov Ber Borochov (1881-1917) was the founder of the Poale Zion (Workers of Zion) party. He was not just a socialist but a rigorous Leninist. In "The National Question and the Class Struggle" (1905) he argued that the Jews of Europe could only be emancipated by class struggle in their own state. He welcomed the Russian revolution and returned to Russia to fight for the Bolsheviks, but died of pneumonia in Kyiv. His ideas were highly influential in the Yishuv in the 1920s and 30s.

Berl Katznelson (1887-1944) was one of the founders of the Histadrut trade union federation, which dominated life in Mandate Palestine and through the first 30 years of Israeli statehood, and also a founder of the Mapai (Labor) party. Through the Histadrut he established Israel's socialised health system. He was a major influence on Ben-Gurion, Golda Meir and other Israeli leaders.

David Ben-Gurion (1886-1973) was born in Poland and emigrated to Ottoman Syria in 1906. He was an active Zionist from his school days, and also a revolutionary socialist. In 1923 he visited the Soviet Union, hoping to meet his hero, Trotsky, but was unable to do so. Later he became a more orthodox democratic socialist. He always saw Zionism and socialism as not just compatible, but essential to each other. The deaths of Haim Arlosoroff (1899-1933) and Katznelson left him as the undisputed leader of the labour movement and of the Yishuv. Although Weizmann remained the international face of Zionism, Ben-Gurion was its real leader from the 1930s until his death.

All of these leaders discussed the issue of the Arab population of Palestine. They argued (correctly) that Palestine was a poor, backward, thinly populated area which could absorb Jewish immigrants without displacing the Arab population. They argued (correctly) that Jewish immigration and investment would create growth and raise the living standards of the Arabs. They argued (correctly, at least at first) that the Arabs did not have a national consciousness and that Jews and Arabs could work together to create a socialist commonwealth. Like all socialists, they believed (incorrectly) that class was more important than nationality. They failed to foresee the rise of Palestinian nationalism after the establishment of the Mandate, and when it did arise, they failed to cope with it.

In all these assumptions the socialist Zionists were opposed by Jabotinsky, who argued that if the Jews wanted Palestine, they would have to fight both the Arabs and the British to get it. He also said that socialism would fail in Palestine as it would everywhere. The socialists bitterly resented Jabotinsky's eloquent attacks on their principles - Ben-Gurion called him "the Jewish Hitler." (Jabotinsky did have fascist sympathies in the 1920s but was a convinced democrat.) In the long run Jabotinsky was proved right, and his disciples Begin, Shamir, Sharon and Netanyahu have governed Israel for most of the last 40 years.

In the 1930s and 40s the socialist Zionists grappled with the conflict between their ideals and reality they faced on the ground. After the massacres of 1929 and 1936-39 they had few illusions about a Jewish-Arab socialist commonwealth. (Socialism has never had any appeal in the Arab-Islamic world, although dictators like Saddam and Assad claimed that their despotic statist regimes were "Arab socialism.") But they refused to accept Jabotinsky's prediction that the Arabs would have to be defeated.

This explains the incoherence of the Jewish leadership's attitude to the Arabs during the 1947-48 War of Independence. While in Jaffa, Lydda and Ramle the Arabs were being driven out at gunpoint, in Haifa the Jewish mayor was imploring the Arabs not to flee to Lebanon (they mostly fled anyway, but many came back). Contrary to later assertions, there was no plan to drive all the Arabs out of the Jewish state, which is why there were still 150,000 Arabs in Israel when the war ended. Today their descendants number 2.1 million.

The labour movement and its party Mapai ran Israel until Menachem Begin won the 1977 election. The last Labor prime minister, Ehud Barak, lost office in 2001 after Yasser Arafat's walkout at the Camp David summit. Labor staked all on the "land for peace" principle, and when Arafat sank that policy, Labor support collapsed and has never recovered. In July this year the remnants of the Labor party were absorbed into a new centre-left party, The Democrats. This brings to an end more than a century of socialist Zionism, although there are still some kibbutzim that are run as collective farms.

Meanwhile, in a process that began in the wake of the 1967 war and has steadily accelerated since, the international left has turned against Israel and Zionism. Parties of the left now uncritically endorse the Palestinian narrative that accuses Israel of "apartheid" and "genocide." The call to destroy Israel, drive out its 7 million Jewish inhabitants and establish a Jew-free Palestinian state "from the river to the sea" is now part of the standard rhetoric of the left everywhere. The Gaza war has raised the left's hatred of Zionism and Zionist Jews to new levels of hysteria and violence, particularly on the campuses of elite universities. It is now impossible to be accepted as part of the left without endorsing the slogans of genocidal anti-Zionism.

Part of the explanation for this is of course that Israel now has a militantly right-wing nationalist government, which people on the left understandably dislike (as do I). But the anti-Zionist turn also reflects the long-term degeneration of the left as a political force. With the disappearance of the old industrial working class and the decline of the trade unions, the left is now dominated by a new intellectual class based in the universities, whose main preoccupation is identity politics. Now that the left is completely divorced from whatever remains of the working class, the main focus of left activism is now "solidarity" with a succession of nasty Third World regimes and insurgencies. The Palestinians have successfully played up to this trend by posing as an oppressed people, while of course giving very short shrift to any symptoms of leftism or identity politics in the areas they control (as "Queers for Palestine" seem unable to notice).


As for the ICC:

1. I don't agree that courts should determine their own jurisdiction. That's how the US Supreme Court became the politicised monster it is today. Courts are instruments of public policy and their jurisdiction should be set by legislation. Judges are not politicians and should be prevented from acting as such.

2. We live in a world of sovereign states (the "Westphalian system"). We do not have a world government with jurisdiction over all states. States can choose to cede some of their sovereignty to supranational bodies (like the EU), but they can't be forced to.

3. Israel withdrew its signature on the ICC treaty precisely because it feared it would be weaponised by anti-Israel governments (who appoint ICC judges) in this way.

4. Israel (unlike most of the countries which attack it) has a robust independent judiciary which can and does punish Israelis who commit human rights violations.

5. I don't agree that Israel is "disrespecting the rule of law." Between states, laws only apply to those states who agree to be bound by them. Israel is a party to the Genocide Convention, so the ICJ clearly had jurisdiction in that case. But since Israel is not a party to the ICC treaty, the ICC has no jurisdiction over it (and does not claim to). The only way the ICC has bought its way into this case is by recognising the "State of Palestine" a fictitious and non-functional state which claims to govern Gaza.


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Can you remind us about the Lavon affair and operation Susannah? Israel planting bombs in Egypt as a false flag operation to blame the Islamic brotherhood and encourage migration of Jews from Egypt to Israel. My memory is that Israel also planted bombs in Iraqi synagogues again under the guise of Islamic anti-Jewish extremists to encourage Jewish migration to Israel, but I cannot remember the Israeli code name for the operation.

Do you really believe that Israelis who attack or kill Palestinian arabs are treated the same as Palestinian arabs who attack Israeli Jews?


 
Fun Fact, who says it's their homeland?
They do.

I've said before that I don't like to use Instagram as evidence, especially when they're subtitled in English, but I've seen dozens of posts from Palestinians saying that they won't leave their homes.

Give them exit visas to third-countries...
Which countries would you suggest? We know that Egypt isn't going to take them. What country, please, is going to accept a mass exodus of millions of poor Palestinians?
 
Which countries would you suggest? We know that Egypt isn't going to take them. What country, please, is going to accept a mass exodus of millions of poor Palestinians?
It is curious why not even their co-ethnics or co-religionist will take them in. That's some bad reputation.
 
It is curious why not even their co-ethnics or co-religionist will take them in. That's some bad reputation.
I repeat, what country is going to accept a mass exodus of millions of poor Palestinians? Until you can find a country, @webfusion's argument of "they should all just leave" isn't going anywhere.
 
I repeat, what country is going to accept a mass exodus of millions of poor Palestinians? Until you can find a country, @webfusion's argument of "they should all just leave" isn't going anywhere.
Heh, forget about a million, their co-ethnics and co-religionist won't even take one. Imagine having that bad of a reputation. I'm not advocating that they leave. No, please stay. Spare the world.
 
No, they don't. Their claim is that ISRAEL itself must be made devoid of Jews, because it's ALL Arab Land.

I've said before that I don't like to use Instagram as evidence, especially when they're subtitled in English, but I've seen dozens of posts from Palestinians saying that they won't leave their homes.

And half of the population of Gaza has the will to leave, when provided an opportunity.
Palestinians in Gaza are terrified to speak honestly about HAMAS -- for obvious reasons.
So, we're left with Instagrammers making it seem they love Gaza so much.
Not credible, I would venture to say.

Which countries would you suggest? We know that Egypt isn't going to take them. What country, please, is going to accept a mass exodus of millions of poor Palestinians?

Egypt is going to 'take' them -- what choice will they have when that Rafah border is opened? Shoot them in cold blood as they surge across?
(See: January 2008)

Maybe Somaliland is a possible destination?
Also, Indonesia.
Perhaps Libya.
The exit doesn't have to be all to just one place.

I hear that Tulsa is nice.
 
Egypt is going to 'take' them -- what choice will they have when that Rafah border is opened? Shoot them in cold blood as they surge across?(See: January 2008)

Maybe Somaliland is a possible destination?
Also, Indonesia.
Perhaps Libya.
The exit doesn't have to be all to just one place.

I hear that Tulsa is nice.
You mean like the IDF has been doing?
 
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Heh, forget about a million, their co-ethnics and co-religionist won't even take one. Imagine having that bad of a reputation. I'm not advocating that they leave. No, please stay. Spare the world.
How many refugees has Jordan, Syria, Lebanon, Iran, Turkey taken? I think you will find that 'Islamic' countries have taken far more refugees than 'Christian' countries.
 
AJ is effectly the state media arm of Quatar, a de facto client state of the nutty clerics in Tehran.
I note you are silent about Israel planting bombs to terrorise Jewish citizens of Arab countries into migrating to Israel using the false flag that Islamic anti semitic extremists planted the bombs.
 
I note you are silent about Israel planting bombs to terrorise Jewish citizens of Arab countries into migrating to Israel using the false flag that Islamic anti semitic extremists planted the bombs.
Given that the surrounding countries want to destroy yours, shoring up your numbers seems reasonable. Unjustified methods but an indication of desperation - as with Benadotte.
 
The only people doing good there are the charities, and most of them have just been banned.

At what point will you stop fabricating & prevaricating & obfuscating?

The 24 organizations on the authorized-to-operate list account for 99% of the total aid volume into Gaza.​


 
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Yeah, Israel is lying about that. You know how I can tell? Israel says that Médecins Sans Frontières was allied with Hamas. It's the exact excuse they use whenever they murder journalists.

Does the Jerusalem Post ever mention the Flour Massacre? Didn't think so.
 
The Jerusalem POST indeed mentioned and covered the story. Why would you 'think' otherwise?
Your own link provides the J-P as a source multiple times (bylines: Yonah Jeremy-Bob and Danielle Greyman-Kennard)

And? People are stressed in Gaza. Tens of thousands are dead. HAMAS is struggling to survive (and still refusing to release the body of Ran Gvir), while your claim that 'nobody' is going to take in Gazans fleeing their strife isn't borne by reports. Especially interesting is Egyptian Presidential Decree No. 736.
Yep, Egypt is building the infrastructure for a Gaza population surge into Sinai because it knows they no longer can keep them out.

The question is no longer if the Palestinian Arabs will move into Sinai, but when it'll happen.
Israel’s determination to disarm HAMAS “is absolute.” (Chief of Staff Zamir)
 
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You mean like the IDF has been doing? (reference: Egypt shooting to stop hordes surging across the 1982 Rafah lines into historically-Palestinian lands in Sinai)


I'm wondering if Trump will intervene on behalf of Palestinians when they start to move into Sinai, as the war resumes.
Yes, the Gaza war isn't over. Not by a longshot.

Fascinating article about how to transform debris into building materials.
Will Arabs in Gaza adopt Israeli tech to help themselves? Or are they going to boycott advantageous Jewish ventures while proceeding to allow their fanatic and violent 'leadership' to leave them suffering in the ashes of the rubble?
 


Came across this completely at random.

Warms your heart. Tells you not everyone there is an Allah worshiping or Yahweh worshiping psycho. Or at least, regardless of if they do indulge in Allah worship and Yahweh worship, tells you that not everyone touched by that unholy land is a murderous psychotic POS. Tells you there's hope for the world still.
 

“The tent we live in is worn out and rainwater leaks inside,” said Linda Abu Halima, 30, who was living in the coastal zone of Mawasi after her home in Beit Lahiya, northern Gaza, was destroyed. “We received it through the help of someone; it is handmade from wood and tarpaulin. We cannot buy a new tent due to the high prices, and we have not received any aid at all.”
 
Chanakya, that video is not an outlier. Most Israelis are comfortable with each other, regardless of their backgrounds.
In the so-called 'settlements' (Ariel, for instance) you'll find Israelis and Palestinians working, studying, playing, singing, hugging, speaking of peace.
When Jews were living and working in Gaza, they got along quite well with their Arab neighbors, I personally remember those days. (1970's- 1980's)

It'll be like that again, but not for another generation or so.
The indoctrination and violent aims of HAMAS have taken hold strongly, and that requires a special treatment to de-program the minds of their youth. (Iran's people in their millions, who are fed-up with radical Islamic fundamentalist nutbars, are providing a template, it would appear).

========================

IDF's new "Thunderous" howitzers are being deployed and guess where they'll likely be used first? Gaza, my guess.
A strategic 'walking artillery barrage' is all it would take to scatter HAMAS out of the strip, south into Sinai.

========================

I'm sending a new tent (purchased from WalMart) to Miss Linda abu-Halima in Gaza.
I hope that HAMAS postal operations can locate her address --- I wrote "Mawasi, GazaPalestine" on the package.
 
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Chanakya, that video is not an outlier. Most Israelis are comfortable with each other, regardless of their backgrounds.

I'd have expected no less. Most people, in my experience, are possessed of empathy. Which is why the lack of such on here, when it comes to "them" as opposed to when it is about "you", not from just one or two outlier psychos and edgelords but most all, came initially as a surprise, that one had difficulty wrapping one's head around, and after that became deeply disgusting.

The indoctrination and violent aims of HAMAS have taken hold strongly, and that requires a special treatment to de-program the minds of their youth.

Likewise the indoctrination and violent aims of so many by the criminal --- the war criminal, as well as Trump-esque petty crook ---- Netanyahu, and other vile right-leaning psychos among your top leadership.

I'm glad you had this camaraderie earlier, but it isn't fellow-feeling to butcher and reduce to hell the lives of your fellows. And only a madman would expect your victims to bear you goodwill in return for this hell.

Hamas, yes, sure, absolutely. But the monster Netanyahu, and his enablers, no less.

I'm sending a new tent (purchased from WalMart) to Miss Linda abu-Halima in Gaza.
I hope that HAMAS postal operations can locate her address --- I wrote "Mawasi, GazaPalestine" on the package.

How very nice, that you should reach out personally to help your Palestinian countrymen in their suffering. (y) That gesture warms the heart, as well, and gives one hope that the future might not necessarily be all bleak.

Wish you a happy new year, Webfusion. Despite everything, hopefully maybe peace again. Disagreements notwithstanding, here's reaching out to you in empathy, for what that is worth. None of us that haven't lived through this hell --- on either side of this divide in your country --- can really appreciate what that is actually like.
 
Yeah, Israel is lying about that. You know how I can tell? Israel says that Médecins Sans Frontières was allied with Hamas. It's the exact excuse they use whenever they murder journalists.

Does the Jerusalem Post ever mention the Flour Massacre? Didn't think so.
All you've done is make the burden of proof even higher, AND used Guilt By Association.

You're also cherry picking something and assuming they didn't report on it.

And as usual, when Webfusion proves you wrong (via your own source), you quietly drop the subject and try a fringe "Israel Bad!" reset and ignore the counterpoint.

I'm glad you had this camaraderie earlier, but it isn't fellow-feeling to butcher and reduce to hell the lives of your fellows. And only a madman would expect your victims to bear you goodwill in return for this hell.
You do remember the casus belli of this war, right? Which came after decades of similar, if less deadly, attacks?
 
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