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Ed General Israel/Palestine discussion thread - Part 3

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Michel H said:
Perhaps because it is good to have a few thoughts for the suffering victims of a long occupation when you are a famous person (fame may lead to social responsibility).
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You're confusing the act of mentioning Palestine every time Israel is addressed with "social responsibility". It isn't.

Besides, Israel has no concentration or extermination camp, of course.
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You think that actually matters to Israel's online community of blood enemies? It doesn't.
 
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Problem is so many people...including , BTW many who don't have religious beliefs...see this in such simplistic black and white terms.
It's a very complex situation with a very complex history.

CNN's current series on the History of Jerusalem points that out. Next week we jump from the Crusades to World War One and Allenby's Palestinian Campaign.
It has flaws (the shoehorning of Cleopatra into the episode of Herod the Great because she is such a big historical name and Lawrence of Arabia is the first guy mentioned in their ads for next week's epidose when he played a minor role in the campaign) but overal an interesting..and fair minded..show.
 
CaptainHowdy, you are right, my question was tu quoque and adds nothing to the discussion.
Both Olympic baseball players mentioned are Jewish, they have every right to support Israel by playing on that nation's team! Famous Jews aren't being called out (yet) for their consanguity, but that could change in an instant (See: Hillel on campuses, as they are now attempting to counter the anti-Jewish mood that is becoming pervasive among some student bodies).
https://www.jpost.com/diaspora/anti...nt-antisemitism-on-university-campuses-675688
 
SuburbanTurkey said:
The poverty conditions in Gaza are fairly uncomplicated to understand. It's a blockaded ghetto, anything but intense poverty is impossible there.
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It's only uncomplicated if you purposefully omit the complicating information, but that's disingenuous and dishonest.

Israel has good reasons for blockading Gaza, and it's not just because they want to be meanies to Muslim Arabs. To change the relationship between Hamas and Israel will require efforts from both Hamas and Israel, Israel can't do it alone.

There is wealth and wealthy people in Gaza. Hamas makes the final decisions on how foreign aid is distributed, and it's Hamas that is responsible for keeping hostilities active.

SuburbanTurkey said:
Agricultural pursuits are frequently hampered by land confiscation by the state or by illegal settlers. Apartheid policies that make Palestinians de-facto second class citizens make many forms of ordinary economic activity extremely unprofitable, if impossible.
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Israel withdrew from Gaza back in 2005. There are no Israeli land confiscations in Gaza.

Israel is responsible for the rights of Israeli citizens, which includes Israeli Arabs.

The Palestinian governments are responsible for the rights of Palestinians. If you think it's unfair that Palestinian citizens have different rights than Israeli citizens, then encourage them to finalize peace and their government can decide what their citizens rights are just like any other government does.
 
Mycroft said:
The Palestinian governments are responsible for the rights of Palestinians. If you think it's unfair that Palestinian citizens have different rights than Israeli citizens, then encourage them to finalize peace and their government can decide what their citizens rights are just like any other government does.
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Yes, the Israeli position does seem to be that they will continue their campaign of human rights abuses until the Palestinian population totally capitulates.

Seems more likely to me that Israel prefers the status quo. Illegal settlement is gobbling up Palestinian lands. Conditions in Gaza will remain poor and force more and more of the Palestinian population to seek refuge status abroad.
 
Israel’s second-ever Olympic gold medalist, Artem Dolgopyat, cannot legally get married in his home country, as he is not Jewish by the standards of the Chief Rabbinate, his mother lamented on Sunday, while the country celebrated its new national hero.

In an interview with 103FM Radio, Dolgopyat’s mother Angela Bilan said: “The state does not let him get married. He has a girlfriend and they have lived together for three years, but he cannot get married.”
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https://www.timesofisrael.com/israels-new-national-sports-hero-cant-marry-in-the-country-mother-laments/

Israel's gold medalist isn't Jewish enough to deserve basic civil rights in his home country.
 
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SuburbanTurkey said:
https://www.timesofisrael.com/israels-new-national-sports-hero-cant-marry-in-the-country-mother-laments/

Israel's gold medalist isn't Jewish enough to deserve basic civil rights in his home country.
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There are no "basic civil rights" to a non-religious marriage in Israel, period. For anyone.
Not Muslims, Not Christians, Not Jews. If clergy refuses (and they have their own criteria for refusing, with several considerations involved) then a marriage license is not provided.

Beyond that, I find it quite disconcerting that you brought forward this particular issue, without pointing out that there are efforts underway by leading Israeli politicians (including vice-Premier Lapid) to alter the status-quo.
https://www.jpost.com/israel-news/lapid-michaeli-vow-to-enable-medal-winner-to-marry-675623

Did you post that just to bash Israel?
What was your reason for offering this story?
 
webfusion said:
There are no "basic civil rights" to a non-religious marriage in Israel, period. For anyone.
Not Muslims, Not Christians, Not Jews. If clergy refuses (and they have their own criteria for refusing, with several considerations involved) then a marriage license is not provided.

Beyond that, I find it quite disconcerting that you brought forward this particular issue, without pointing out that there are efforts underway by leading Israeli politicians (including vice-Premier Lapid) to alter the status-quo.
https://www.jpost.com/israel-news/lapid-michaeli-vow-to-enable-medal-winner-to-marry-675623

Did you post that just to bash Israel?
What was your reason for offering this story?
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Yes, my post was meant as a naked criticism of Israel and their regressive policies, like their anti-miscegenation marriage policy. The fact that this regressive nonsense is cloaked in theocratic bureaucracy is not an excuse.

All this talk about how our ally is the only democracy in the middle east, perhaps there should be more acknowledgement how backwards this apartheid, theocratic state really is.
 
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SuburbanTurkey said:
Yes, my post was meant as a naked criticism of Israel and their regressive policies, like their anti-miscegenation marriage policy. The fact that this regressive nonsense is cloaked in theocratic bureaucracy is not an excuse.

All this talk about how our ally is the only democracy in the middle east, perhaps there should be more acknowledgement how backwards this apartheid, theocratic state really is.
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It's fine to criticize, but do so fairly.
Israel is not a theocratic state. Yes, there's theocratic bureaucracy (not just Jewish, but Moslem and Christian as well, with a few other religions thrown in for good measure, and they ALL protect and defend their customs, traditions and practices).
As for "apartheid" -- that's just YOU repeating a lie.

Israel's GOVERNMENT allows civil marriages to be recorded in the Population Registry, but that union would have to be performed elsewhere (Cyprus is the go-to location for Israelis who want to avoid the Clergy).

The subject is a sore spot in Israeli society (along with drafting Haredim).
Stay out of it, Turkey. Your ongoing Israel-bashing would be better-served by taking other routes, OK?
 
SuburbanTurkey said:
Yes, the Israeli position does seem to be that they will continue their campaign of human rights abuses until the Palestinian population totally capitulates.

----- Capitulates to what?
Can you point to specific demands Israel has of the Palestinians? What are the 'terms of surrender' that you believe Israel is seeking?

Seems more likely to me that Israel prefers the status quo. Illegal settlement is gobbling up Palestinian lands. Conditions in Gaza will remain poor and force more and more of the Palestinian population to seek refuge status abroad.
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In Israel, there are many things that are 'staus quo' -- including the policies on our Temple Mount, now a public park, which falls directly into your categorization of "Palestinian Lands" right?

Conditions in Gaza will remain poor until they free themselves from men whose interests oppose freedom. I have yet to see such a movement emerge at the grassroots level.
As for leaving Gaza, Israel will attempt to alleviate the pressure on the Egyptian exit point (Rafiah crossing) and start allowing Palestinians to use the Allenby Bridge (Jordan).
https://www.jpost.com/middle-east/payment-of-hamas-salaries-delays-qatar-funding-for-gaza-675996
 
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SuburbanTurkey said:
Yes, my post was meant as a naked criticism of Israel and their regressive policies
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That is the what, not the why. Why do you care about Israeli marriage policies? Do you care about Palestinian, or Egyptian, or Jordanian marriage policies? I doubt it. I doubt you even know what such policies are.
 
webfusion said:
----- Capitulates to what?
Can you point to specific demands Israel has of the Palestinians? What are the 'terms of surrender' that you believe Israel is seeking?
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In my opinion, the basic issue is Israel's territorial expansion in the West Bank and East Jerusalem.

It is likely Israel's government would like to see the Palestinian Authority and Hamas accept a Trump style peace plan (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trump_peace_plan) with a small Palestinian state in the long run, and East Jerusalem belonging permanently to Israel. This is probably the kind of "surrender" that Israel would like to see.
 
Ziggurat said:
That is the what, not the why. Why do you care about Israeli marriage policies? Do you care about Palestinian, or Egyptian, or Jordanian marriage policies? I doubt it. I doubt you even know what such policies are.
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Considering the huge amounts of foreign aid and diplomatic support the US lavishes on Israel, it seems fair to question the human rights record in detail. If we reduce our support of Israel to similar levels of Egypt or Jordan I would find their lack of respect for human rights less objectionable.

US support of Israel is the only reason there hasn't been action from the UN concerning illegal Israeli settlements, for example. US sponsorship plays a huge role in enabling the worst elements of Israeli policy.
 
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SuburbanTurkey said:
Considering the huge amounts of foreign aid and diplomatic support the US lavishes on Israel, it seems fair to question the human rights record in detail. If we reduce our support of Israel to similar levels of Egypt or Jordan I would find their lack of respect for human rights less objectionable.
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No you wouldn’t. You would just find a new excuse. Even this excuse doesn’t actually make any sense. Why is a human rights violation less morally wrong if there is less foreign aid? It makes no sense. But then, it doesn’t actually need to. Because everything you have said is a pretense.
 
SuburbanTurkey said:
Considering the huge amounts of foreign aid and diplomatic support the US lavishes on Israel, it seems fair to question the human rights record in detail. If we reduce our support of Israel to similar levels of Egypt or Jordan I would find their lack of respect for human rights less objectionable.

US support of Israel is the only reason there hasn't been action from the UN concerning illegal Israeli settlements, for example. US sponsorship plays a huge role in enabling the worst elements of Israeli policy.
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The United States disagrees that the Temple Mount/Western Wall & the Jewish Quarter, or any other enclave of Jewish life in and around Jerusalem is "illegal" --- The Hebrew University sits on lands captured from Jordanian Legions in '67 (next to Hadassah Hospital on Mt.Scopus)
These are within the scope of the "illegal" areas you are talking about.
Gilo? Illegal town?
Ma'ale Adumim? Illegal?
Hebron? Illegal housing?
Alfe Menashe? Illegal community?
Ariel? An illegal abomination?

Are these the worst elements of Israeli policy you are referring to?
What actions do you envision from the UN regarding Jews living in Jerusalem's suburbs?
What would happen if the USA stood back and allowed China, Russia (those paragons of human rights on the UNSC) to support evisceration of Jewish life in our holy land and capitulation to the Arabs? The world would be a BETTER place in your opinion?

By the way, the USA provides Egypt with billions of $$$ and supports the military dictatorship there. Your tax dollars at work.
But nevermind, there aren't Jewish communities in Egypt (or in Lebanon, or Syria, or Jordan, where even selling a property to a Jew is a terrible, terrible thing, with very harsh penalties, and let's not even mention Saudi Arabia, 70 miles to our south).

You may be right -- let's focus our humanitarian concerns on the totally anti-miscegenation Israeli marriage laws (that, inter alia, apply equally across the entire spectrum of religions, from the Ba'hai to the Druze to the Circassians, to the Copts, to the Eastern Orthodox, etc etc) and stop providing defensive Sikorsky CH53K helicopters.
Makes sense to me.

Not.
 
Michel H said:
In my opinion, the basic issue is Israel's territorial expansion in the West Bank and East Jerusalem.
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OK, let's take it to the logical extension of this claim.
What was the nature of the three wars that Israel fought from May 1948, through Suez/Gaza War 1956, and up to the morning of June 5, 1967? Israel held not one centimeter of what you refer to as "east Jerusalem" or "West Bank" --- in fact, up until the conclusion of the Six Day War, Jews were disallowed from access to our shrine of Abraham, Isaac & Jacob as well as 100% restricted from approaching the Temple Mount/Western Wall.
If the "basic issue" is indeed territorial, arising ONLY from the June 1967 breaches of the 1949 Armistice (Cease-Fire-in-Place) Demarcation, then why did Israel have to fight those wars? From your perspective, the "basic issue" of Israel is expansion.

From many Palestinians' perspective, the 'basic issue' is Israel itself, in MY opinion.


Michel H said:
It is likely Israel's government would like to see the Palestinian Authority and Hamas accept a Trump style peace plan (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trump_peace_plan) with a small Palestinian state in the long run, and East Jerusalem belonging permanently to Israel. This is probably the kind of "surrender" that Israel would like to see.
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Honestly, Israel's current government is just getting their feet under themselves, trying to deal with COVID19, Iranian intrigues, Islamic Jihadists with tens of thousands of missiles & drones, a weak American President, and just plain old strange-bedfellows of our coalition politics.

And you think a Peace Plan is on anyone's agenda?

Oh, and for the record, the amount of land of a small PalestineState is 6205 sq.km. (~2500 sq.miles) -- would you like to know how I arrived at this figure?
 
webfusion said:
OK, let's take it to the logical extension of this claim.
What was the nature of the three wars that Israel fought from May 1948, through Suez/Gaza War 1956, and up to the morning of June 5, 1967? Israel held not one centimeter of what you refer to as "east Jerusalem" or "West Bank" --- in fact, up until the conclusion of the Six Day War, Jews were disallowed from access to our shrine of Abraham, Isaac & Jacob as well as 100% restricted from approaching the Temple Mount/Western Wall.
If the "basic issue" is indeed territorial, arising ONLY from the June 1967 breaches of the 1949 Armistice (Cease-Fire-in-Place) Demarcation, then why did Israel have to fight those wars? From your perspective, the "basic issue" of Israel is expansion.
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Israel fought the 1967 war (and took so much land) because they chose to, it was an overreaction to the closure of the Straits of Tiran by Egypt. Arabs and the Iranians have made (and are still making) mistakes too but this does not exonerate Israel from their legal obligations.
From many Palestinians' perspective, the 'basic issue' is Israel itself, in MY opinion.
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Perhaps some Palestinians who work either in Israel or in Israeli settlements might disagree. Anyway, I agree with you that Hamas (and their Iranian friends) should stop saying they want to destroy the State of Israel.
Honestly, Israel's current government is just getting their feet under themselves, trying to deal with COVID19, Iranian intrigues, Islamic Jihadists with tens of thousands of missiles & drones, a weak American President, and just plain old strange-bedfellows of our coalition politics.

And you think a Peace Plan is on anyone's agenda?
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I believe that much of Israel troubles are actually related to their illegal colonization policies in Palestine (but not the coronavirus, of course). For example, two days ago, Palestinian groups in Lebanon fired rockets at northern Israel, which sparked fires (see https://www.timesofisrael.com/leban...kes-reflect-aggressive-escalatory-intentions/), and this is now leading to yet another crisis. I believe we all suspect why Palestinians aren't very happy.
Oh, and for the record, the amount of land of a small PalestineState is 6205 sq.km. (~2500 sq.miles) -- would you like to know how I arrived at this figure?
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This seems very large (the West Bank area is 5,655 km2). Perhaps you took this number from the 1947 U.N. partition plan for Palestine.
 
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