General Israel/Palestine discussion thread - Part 4

[webfusion]

Whatta ya mean, what ceasefire? The United States of America is going full-ahead into phase 2 and arranging an interim intervention force that will supervise thoroughly the details of HAMAS' observance of the terms, and keep tabs on Israel's static military deployment beyond the Yellow Lines.
Rafah is a bone of contention, to be worked-out.
Zikim (ErezWest) is a new and expanded cargo transfer facility that supplements Erez and Karem Shalom.
Israel has done a Salami-Slice job on Gaza's main arteries, and created new routes N/S and reinforced the zones of separation (Netzarim Corridor). Also, as the Agreements move ahead, there is post-war planning for
"Green" and "Red" Zones:
Green Zones would be areas under Israeli and international military control where reconstruction, including "alternative safe communities," might begin.
Red Zones would be areas left in ruins and remaining under Hamas influence, with little to no reconstruction efforts, intended for a gradual reduction of Islamic Jihadist control.

IDF dismantles Hamas sites along Gaza Yellow Line | The Jerusalem Post

The operation was conducted by the 143rd Gaza Division of the Golani Brigade, which located weapons and surveillance equipment, including AK-47 rifles, RPG rockets, and cameras used by Hamas.

www.jpost.com

 

[arthwollipot]

Whatta ya mean, what ceasefire?

I mean what ceasefire? There hasn't been a ceasefire. Neither Israel nor Hamas has ceased firing.

 

[webfusion]

Ayalet Shaked shared a deceased speechwriter's article in a 2014 Facebook post. (written by Uri Elitzur years earlier, in which he labeled "the entire Palestinian people" as the enemy and advocated for the destruction of its elderly & women, cities, and villages.)
So, technically, SHE didn't say it.
Is reposting/sharing other's sentiments the same as authoring the words? It may be considered as such, I dunno the exact social media protocol on that.
Lots of Israelis wish the Palestainians would ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊ disappear.
}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}

arthwollipot, there has been an effective ceasefire, as far as can be practicable when IDF is dug in and faces guerilla hit-and-run actions, along with IED's RPGs and such. The yellow line is possibly going to become the new permanent partition of Gaza. From what I'm seeing, the overall implementation of “alternative safe communities” (ASC's) is where this is all headed.

 

[arthwollipot]

Ayalet Shaked shared a deceased speechwriter's article in a 2014 Facebook post. (written by Uri Elitzur years earlier, in which he labeled "the entire Palestinian people" as the enemy and advocated for the destruction of its elderly & women, cities, and villages.)
So, technically, SHE didn't say it.
Is reposting/sharing other's sentiments the same as authoring the words? It may be considered as such, I dunno the exact social media protocol on that.
Lots of Israelis wish the Palestainians would ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊ disappear.

Okay, thanks.

What about this one?

 

[webfusion]

I repeat -- Lots of Israelis wish the Palestinians would ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊ disappear.

Palestinians as animals in Israeli discourse - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

=================================
Israel is running on all eight cylinders.

Israeli exports in 2025 near pre-war peak | The Jerusalem Post

Economy and Industry Minister Nir Barkat announced the figures on the second day of the Foreign Trade Administration’s annual annexes conference.

www.jpost.com

Palestinian Arabs are not.
They are basically out of gas.

 

[arthwollipot]

I repeat -- Lots of Israelis wish the Palestinians would ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊ disappear.

Including you?

 

[webfusion]

Sinai is the obvious way out for Palestinians, at least for a few years, until true Palestinian reform is achieved. As a matter of principle, the Middle East stakeholder nation of Egypt, who is consistently urging the establishment of a Palestinian state, needs to also offer some real estate alongside their demands for 'freepalestine'.

Israel must allow bureaucratic departure from Gaza Strip | The Jerusalem Post

If foreign governments want more people to leave safely, they must do the unglamorous work: issue visas, arrange onward travel, accept evacuees, and fund logistics.

www.jpost.com

In a functioning international system, civilians with lawful travel options should not remain trapped in a combat zone because politics are difficult. Facilitating their exit is what a responsible state does in wartime.

(I note that the USA is cancelling the P-A visas and prohibiting entry to Palestinians into America)

Israel is headed towards institutionalizing the departure channel.
Now, where's the international community? They need to step up.
Especially Egypt.


Arthwollipot, I have made quite clear my preference.
If you missed the other times I've posted this, take a moment and read it.
It's enlightening. And reasonable.

 

[NatalieSalat]

Palestinian infant freezes to death in Gaza as Israel keeps blocking aid

Winter cold 'becomes lethal' as Israel restricts entry of tents, blankets and other shelter supplies to ravaged enclave.

www.aljazeera.com

One baby's death is one too many. It is not freezing you say. Children aren't starving you say. Try saying that when you have to hand a dead child to its mother.
Try and justify this you heartless ******

AJ is effectively the state media arm of Quatar, a major sponsor along with Iran of Palestinian terror and extremist groups.

Pacifism without pragmatism is villainy. Diana Gould was no hero by functionally siding with the people behind the Dirty War.

 

[arthwollipot]

Arthwollipot, I have made quite clear my preference.
If you missed the other times I've posted this, take a moment and read it.
It's enlightening. And reasonable.

I've read it. I notice that it appears to be entirely authored by Israelis with apparently no input from any Palestinians, and it requires Egypt to give up a substantial amount of land. Good luck with that.

Also, I noticed that the link that the article provides to the New State Solution website is now dead. I assume the proposal is too.

 

[webfusion]

'requires Egypt to give up a substantial amount of land'
So what? The peace treaty with Egypt provided the entire Sinai back to Egypt (after Sadat lost it THREE times --- 1956, 1967, 1973 --- in wars the Egyptians initiated). Was THAT not 'substantial' on the part of Israel to make that concession for the sake of peace?
Now, with changes occurring rapidly in regards to the MidEast confrontation nations (Syria, Lebanon, & SaudiArabia), and Trump pressing hard, something has to change to the persistently-urged "1949 Armistices paradigm" which has failed so many times, I've lost track.

That area in N.Sinai is empty basically. It can handle an influx of ALL the worlds' Palestinian refugees, and they would have access into an ExpandedNewPalestine through the port at elArish and the international air terminal there, as well.

And there's precedent --- The Egyptians gave up a 'substantial amount' of land to Saudi Arabia.
(See: Tiran and Sanafir, 2017)
Sisi did so in exchange for $22-billion in oil supply and development aid to Egypt .
Why would this NewPalestine trade-off be of such grave consequence to Egypt, when it would ultimately lead to an outcome that benefits everyone?
(Note: Israel just signed a $35-billion LNG contract with Gen. Sisi of Egypt, without ANY quid-pro-quo, astonishingly).
Getting from here to there requires more than "NOPE" or "Good luck with that" or "unacceptable" or "violates the Rights of Palestinians" (including their 'right' to continue attacking Israel).

Which Palestinians need to be consulted? HAMAS?
Palestinian Islamic Jihad? Palestine Authority?

As for the NSS website, yes, it's been taken offline.
MirYam Institute is responsible for that, and I've been unsuccessful in trying to find out from them the exact reasons. Intrepid journalists might wish to look into this aspect and discover that Institute's underlying rationale for suspending it.

 

[arthwollipot]

Which Palestinians need to be consulted? HAMAS?
Palestinian Islamic Jihad? Palestine Authority?

How about literally anyone? Since it's going to profoundly affect their lives?

 

[webfusion]

While the suggestion was floated, and the reaction was predictable -- Rejection --- the fact remains that it's literally impossible to formulate a NewPalestineState primarily because it is based on the premise of them thus needing to abandon the "Palestinian Cause" which is based on the reclamation of ALL ARAB LANDS (i.e. -- Eliminate Israel).

A Palestinian State in North Sinai?

Rosa Luxemburg Stiftung - North Africa Office

rosaluxna.org

and

Zionism: The Policy of Transferring Palestinians, from the Origins to the Present Day

www.palestine-studies.org

and

https://www.npr.org/2024/02/26/1232826942/rafah-gaza-palestinians-egypt-border

and

A Palestinian state in Gaza-Sinai: The real two-state solution — The MirYam Institute

NSS Working Group member contribution.

www.miryaminstitute.org

and

Palestine in the Sinai?

More on: Israel Egypt Palestinian Territories Several days ago news reports "revealed" a proposal by Egyptian President Sisi to extend the territory of…

www.cfr.org

and

Expelling Palestinians From Gaza Is Playing With Fire

Among the many risks inherent in the ongoing war in Gaza, perhaps the most dangerous has been the potential for broader escalation involving other

warontherocks.com

and

Sinai as an alternative to Gaza: Who is funding this? Who is passing the deal?

Egyptian Sinai has returned to the forefront of the conflict between the Palestinian Resistance and the Israeli occupation, with the circulation of plans that include the displacement of the reside…

www.middleeastmonitor.com

and

A forced exodus from Gaza to Egypt? Israeli ‘concept paper’ fuels outrage

Israel downplayed the proposal that Palestinians in Gaza be transferred to Egypt’s Sinai Desert as a “thinking document” from the country’s Intelligence Ministry.

www.nbcnews.com

“Israel might make the Palestinians Egypt’s problem, whether Egypt likes it or not.”

 

[webfusion]

For the record, Ran Gvili is still unaccounted-for.
If Palestinian Jihadist factions think they can hand-wave it away, while proceeding into "Phase II" of the Gaza Reconstruction, they are mistaken.
Israel is not prepared for another Goldwasser/Regev embroglio.

Talik Gvili set to join Benjamin Netanyahu on trip to US | The Jerusalem Post

Walla also learned that Shira, Ran Gvili's sister, was invited by Israeli Consul General in New York, Ofir Akunis, to light the fifth Hanukkah candle at the Consulate General.

www.jpost.com

 

[webfusion]

In regards to the $35-billion LNG supply deal, I looked into the arrangement being worked-out, and it appears that Egypt's leadership is struggling to explain to their people such a close & cozy relationship with the Jews of Israel.
(Egyptians are overwhelmingly not particularly fond of Israeli Jews, especially now with the so-called "genocide" in Gaza ---- many Egyptians would prefer that General el-Sisi go to war again, tearing up their treaty, rather than acquiesce to any Jews)

Egypt: Gas deal with Israel is 'purely commercial' | The Jerusalem Post

"The deal serves a strategic interest to enhance Egypt's position as the only regional center for gas trading in the Eastern Mediterranean," official Diaa Rashwan said.

www.jpost.com

Yair Lapid is quoted as saying he wishes Egypt would take a leading role in 'Making Gaza Gaza Again' (MGGA)

Benjamin Netanyahu and President Donald Trump will meet on December 29th.

 

[lionking]

While the suggestion was floated, and the reaction was predictable -- Rejection --- the fact remains that it's literally impossible to formulate a NewPalestineState primarily because it is based on the premise of them thus needing to abandon the "Palestinian Cause" which is based on the reclamation of ALL ARAB LANDS (i.e. -- Eliminate Israel).

A Palestinian State in North Sinai?

Rosa Luxemburg Stiftung - North Africa Office

rosaluxna.org

and

Zionism: The Policy of Transferring Palestinians, from the Origins to the Present Day

www.palestine-studies.org

and

https://www.npr.org/2024/02/26/1232826942/rafah-gaza-palestinians-egypt-border

and

A Palestinian state in Gaza-Sinai: The real two-state solution — The MirYam Institute

NSS Working Group member contribution.

www.miryaminstitute.org

and

Palestine in the Sinai?

More on: Israel Egypt Palestinian Territories Several days ago news reports "revealed" a proposal by Egyptian President Sisi to extend the territory of…

www.cfr.org

and

Expelling Palestinians From Gaza Is Playing With Fire

Among the many risks inherent in the ongoing war in Gaza, perhaps the most dangerous has been the potential for broader escalation involving other

warontherocks.com

and

Sinai as an alternative to Gaza: Who is funding this? Who is passing the deal?

Egyptian Sinai has returned to the forefront of the conflict between the Palestinian Resistance and the Israeli occupation, with the circulation of plans that include the displacement of the reside…

www.middleeastmonitor.com

and

A forced exodus from Gaza to Egypt? Israeli ‘concept paper’ fuels outrage

Israel downplayed the proposal that Palestinians in Gaza be transferred to Egypt’s Sinai Desert as a “thinking document” from the country’s Intelligence Ministry.

www.nbcnews.com

“Israel might make the Palestinians Egypt’s problem, whether Egypt likes it or not.”

Exactly. Hamas and any other body which purports to represent Palestine will accept nothing other than the elimination of Israel. It’s a very simple fact.

 

[webfusion]

Hey-Ho, they gotta go.

Al Jazeera: How Israel encourages emigration from Gaza

An Al Jazeera report claims that 7,000 Gaza residents have emigrated via Israel with support from Israeli-linked bodies, alleging a strategic effort to encourage departure amid the humanitarian crisis.

www.israelnationalnews.com

 

[Planigale]

An Israeli military bulldozer deliberately ran over a wounded Palestinian child, cutting his body in half while he was still alive, after shooting him and preventing medical aid from reaching him. This premeditated killing reflects extreme brutality and forms part of Israel’s ongoing pattern of targeting Palestinian civilians as a national group

Israeli bulldozer crushing of a wounded child exemplifies horrific killing pattern in Gaza

The Israeli army’s practice of running over Palestinians is not an isolated incident but one of the most brutal forms of deliberate killing

euromedmonitor.org

Euro-Med Human Rights Monitor’s field team documented the injury of 16-year-old Zaher Nasser Shamia from Jabalia camp in the northern Gaza Strip by Israeli forces on Wednesday afternoon, 10 December 2025. The wounded child lay bleeding, with no one able to reach him due to continuous gunfire. Minutes later, a military bulldozer advanced towards him and deliberately ran him over while he was still alive on the ground, splitting his body in two and tearing it into pieces.

 

[webfusion]

"16-year-old Zaher Nasser Shamia" --- He entered an active live-fire combat zone.
From all appearances, his presence could have been easily construed to be a HAMAS dude (especially at age 16, dressed in his black clothing, he's not considered a child out there at that time, but just another potential threat to the military force advancing.)

Merkava Mk IV tanks and Armored D9's don't stop for anything in their paths. (See: Rachel Corrie)

Right now, they're in a holding stage, dug in, maintaining the integrity of the Yellow Lines.
All movement in their direction is going to be dealt with lethally.

Has two years of war maneuvering not taught these people anything about remaining in areas where there's HAMAS vs. IDF confrontations being a bad idea?

 

[Planigale]

"16-year-old Zaher Nasser Shamia" --- He entered an active live-fire combat zone.
From all appearances, his presence could have been easily construed to be a HAMAS dude (especially at age 16, dressed in his black clothing, he's not considered a child out there at that time, but just another potential threat to the military force advancing.)

Merkava Mk IV tanks and Armored D9's don't stop for anything in their paths. (See: Rachel Corrie)

Right now, they're in a holding stage, dug in, maintaining the integrity of the Yellow Lines.
All movement in their direction is going to be dealt with lethally.

Has two years of war maneuvering not taught these people anything about remaining in areas where there's HAMAS vs. IDF confrontations being a bad idea?

Create your own facts to excuse war crimes.
1) Invent black clothes
2) Invent the fact that there isn't a cease fire
3) Invent the fact that he had crossed the yellow line.
4) Invent the fact that the IDF hadn't crossed the yellow line line. (Remember the yellow line is beyond the withdrawal line that the IDF are supposed to have withdrawn to, within 'Palestinian Space'; the IDF had crossed the yellow line so were well beyond where they were required to be.)
5) Even if he was an enemy combatant (which he wasn't) the IDF are required to render aid under IHL. They are also required to treat the bodies of dead persons properly.

 

[Planigale]

Ammar Wadi knew he was risking his life when he set out to get a bag of flour for his family from an aid truck near the Zikim crossing into Gaza in June....Wadi is among the dozens of Palestinians whose loved ones say they vanished near Zikim and whose fates remain unknown.....
A CNN investigation now points to the Israeli military bulldozing the bodies of some of those killed near the crossing into shallow, unmarked graves. At other times, their remains were simply left to decompose in the open, unable to be recovered in the militarized area.

The practice of mishandling bodies by bulldozing them into unmarked graves can violate international law, according to legal experts. CNN’s review, which also found that aid seekers were killed by indiscriminate Israeli fire near the crossing, drew upon hundreds of videos and photos from around Zikim, along with interviews of eyewitnesses and local aid truck drivers. CNN spoke with two former Israeli military members who described instances elsewhere in Gaza during the war in which the bodies of Palestinians were bulldozed into shallow graves.
According to international law, the warring sides should cooperate in burying the dead in a way that allows them to be identified, said Janina Dill, co-director of the Oxford Institute for Ethics, Law and Armed Conflict.

“The purpose is to prevent the dead from becoming the missing and to allow for memorialization, chiefly by their families,” Dill said. “Moreover, if bodies are deliberately mutilated or mishandled in a way that violates their dignity, this can amount to ‘outrages upon personal dignity’ which is a war crime under the Geneva Conventions.”

Whether the IDF tracks sites where it has allegedly buried bodies remains an open question, however. One of the IDF whistleblowers told CNN that when his unit buried nine people in early 2024, the location of the grave was left unmarked.

https://edition.cnn.com/2025/12/03/middleeast/bulldozed-corpses-gaza-israel-zikim-aid-intl-vis-invs

The question is when will the IDF return the bodies of the hundreds of Palestinians they have concealed in unmarked graves?