• Quick note - the problem with Youtube videos not embedding on the forum appears to have been fixed, thanks to ZiprHead. If you do still see problems let me know.

General Israel/Palestine discussion thread

Status
Not open for further replies.
a_unique_person said:
Israel could help by not having key people like Netanyahu doing their best to destabilise the peace process because they do want it all, and proving to the Palestinians that the Israeli's can't be trusted.
Click to expand...

They did have such a person in charge of Israel, a mere 4 years ago, in Olmert.

Why do you think that Netanyahu in particular is a barrier to the peace process? The Palestinians have obstructed the peace process at every turn since its inception. Has something changed in the Palestinian attitude towards Israel in the last 4-5 years?
 
a_unique_person said:
If it was Eskimos and not English who turned up at Botany Bay, do you think the Aboriginals would have welcomed them with open arms and not try to kill them. It's not who they are, but what they were doing.
Click to expand...

It's true because it should be true. You seem to fall into this trap a lot.
 
a_unique_person said:
IIRC, they also had a promise of no more corruption, and that was what won them the election.
Click to expand...
A simple question: if the party of a genocidal anti-semitic terrorist group was running for office in Australia would you consider voting for them if you liked their economic policy?
 
a_unique_person said:
Has Memri got that video of Netanyahu saying he did his best to wreck Oslo? I'm betting it's not. Time to change the name and tax status of Memri.
Click to expand...
Do you have any comment on a Hamas honcho saying that the flotilla's efforts are helping Hamas?

Any comment on that a_u_p?
 
WildCat said:
About your "one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter" comment... this includes Hitler, right?
Click to expand...

no.
hitler was not fighting for the freedom of an oppressed nation.
he imposed imprisonment and death upon many millions.
previous to hitler, germany was a modern, self-governed, free nation.
he was not a 'freedom fighter' in any way shape or form.
 
bikerdruid said:
no.
hitler was not fighting for the freedom of an oppressed nation.
he imposed imprisonment and death upon many millions.
previous to hitler, germany was a modern, self-governed, free nation.
he was not a 'freedom fighter' in any way shape or form.
Click to expand...

But you said it. "One man's terrorist..."

It's all relative.
 
bikerdruid said:
no.
hitler was not fighting for the freedom of an oppressed nation.
he imposed imprisonment and death upon many millions.
previous to hitler, germany was a modern, self-governed, free nation.
he was not a 'freedom fighter' in any way shape or form.
Click to expand...

Maybe not to you, but he is definitely a freedom fighter to many other people. Hitler was, and still is worshipped by a large number of people who viewed/view Hitler in a very positive light and would wholeheartedly disagree with your description of him.

Afterall, one man's genocidal maniac is another man's freedom fighter and hero.

The same argument could be made for Stalin, or Idi Aman, or Saddam Hussein, or Kim II Sung, or Pol Pot, or Mao-Ze-Dong. All of these people engaged in pointless massive killings, but are still worshipped and revered by many people.

Clearly there is a difference in opinion with the rest of the world.

Should we just agree to settle in the middle with those who revere people that advocate for or engage in mass killings, and define mass murderers like Hitler and Stalin as "just people that some people support and some do not?" Or do you see a point to rejecting people who engage in or advocate mass killings and those who support them?


Hamas is one of a number of groups in the world that call for mass killings based on racial and religious prejudice. Whatever their excuses are for having this position, it is still wrong, and it should be opposed.

Just because there are people that support their position and the group, it does not grant them validation. The position and goals of the group are still just as wrong.


I don't know if you have ever seen the rallies of Hitler, or Stalin, or Mao-Ze-Dong, but the rallies to support these mass murderers included many normal, everyday people that you would normally not associate with the types of truly evil deeds that these men carried out. The reason for that is because propaganda can be a very powerful tool, and it is a main reason why many good and ordinary citizens also support groups like Hamas.

One man's terrorist or mass murderer may be another man's hero, but there are clear psychological reasons for that, and we need to work to seriously address those reasons rather than just chalking it up to a difference of opinion.

If the Palestinians want their own State, than they will have to deal with positions like those from Hamas and get serious about peace. Blaming all of their problems on Israel may make them feel better about the position that they are in, but it does nothing to actually help themselves better their situation.
 
Abdul Alhazred said:
Captain of "Audacity of Hope" Under Arrest in Greece
Arutz Sheva (Israel)

__________________
The lack of a rational explanation is not evidence for an irrational explanation.
Click to expand...

Cleon said:
"Terrorist?" Really? :nope:
Click to expand...

You could make the case that this is not about actually delivering goods to Gazans, and is instead about a dangerous stunt to get media attention which provides advantages for Hamas. Which in many ways is correctly labeled a terrorist group.

However, calling the captain of one of the boats who is willing to risk the life of his passengers for that extremely dangerous political stunt a "terrorist" may be a bit of a stretch. Horribly misguided, idiotic, and naive perhaps, but I would not define him as a terrorist, or as someone who is directly supporting weapons smuggling.


Greece offered to transfer the goods to Gaza instead, but that was never the point of the flotilla. The point of the flotilla was to obtain media coverage for the plight of the Gazans who have been suffering under intense Hamas and Israeli oppression, but the flotilla only focuses on Israel, and ignores the serious damage to the Gazan people from Hamas.

Gazans would not have nearly as much trouble as they do now if it were not for Hamas. There absolutely should be more people working to better the lives of the people living in Gaza, but blaming all of their problems on Israel, and engaging in dangerous provocative acts like trying to break a Naval blockade for media coverage doesn't actually help Gaza.

If they really want to help, they should put the same intensity towards advocating for both sides to get serious about peace.
 
Last edited:
bikerdruid said:
no.
Click to expand...
I see, so you are able to differentiate between "terrorist" and "freedom fighter"!

bikerdruid said:
hitler was not fighting for the freedom of an oppressed nation.
Click to expand...
Of course he was, that was pretty much the entire Nazi platform! They were oppressed by the Treaty of Versailles, the Communists, the French, and the Jews. And they used that as an excuse to commit atrocities.

Just like Hamas, which you admitted has significant support amongst Palestinians, blames all their problems on the Jews, and has vowed to commit atrocities to exact revenge, and to carry out God's will.

What kind of person calls Hamas "freedom fighters"?
 
Last edited:
You can blame the left. They invented all this stuff about how there's no objective truth in the 50's and 60's. Intellectuals like Jean Baudrillard and Guy Debord wrote whole books of obscurantist babble that nobody could understand and meant absolutely nothing.
 
WildCat said:
I see, so you are able to differentiate between "terrorist" and "freedom fighter"!


Of course he was, that was pretty much the entire Nazi platform! They were oppressed by the Treaty of Versailles, the Communists, the French, and the Jews. And they used that as an excuse to commit atrocities.

Just like Hamas, which you admitted has significant support amongst Palestinians, blames all their problems on the Jews, and has vowed to commit atrocities to exact revenge, and to carry out God's will.

What kind of person calls Hamas "freedom fighters"?
Click to expand...

Terrorist: Hamas, LrA, etc...

Freedom fighter: French Resistance from WWII

There. :p
 
bikerdruid said:
my perspective on the matter is irrelevant.
however, since gazans and other palestinians view them as freedom fighters, they cannot be ignored in serious talks of peace.
that is where the matter is relevant.
Click to expand...

And many Germans once saw Hitler as their leader... doesn't mean that the Allies had to include him in serious peace talks.

Folks can be wrong sometimes. Passionately wrong. But still wrong.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Back
Top Bottom