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General Israel/Palestine discussion thread

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Netanyahu has stated many times he's not against a Palestinian state. Palestinian leaders have stated many times
they want to kill Jews or stall until a great Muslim army can come along and conquer Israel.
 
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WildCat said:
A simple question: if the party of a genocidal anti-semitic terrorist group was running for office in Australia would you consider voting for them if you liked their economic policy?
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Fortunately, none of our political parties are as corrupt as Fatah under Arafat, or fundamentalist maniacs like Hamas. The Jews in Australia can feel quite safe.

I don't believe Hamas has shown itself to be any better at running anything than Fatah, which is why Fatah is still in power in the West Bank. It seems to be a few years since the last elections, I wonder if Hamas is keen to front up again, since they have only made things worse for the Palestinians than they first were.
 
a_unique_person said:
I don't know that I can believe that. He does not seem to know where they are going to actually live, nor what their borders will be, nor what their rights will be in this 'state'.
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Because those things are subject to negotiations.
 
The Fool said:
and a platform of "No palestinian state under any circumstances" gets Likid a lot of votes among "peace-Loving Israelis"

"peace", of course, defined in the Likud Charter as "Palestinians remain stateless forever"
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How is Israel stopping them from having a state? They can start one any time they want, but they instead insist on having certain land. As if that cannot be negotiated afterwords. Israel is willing to negotiate land terms and it hasn't prevented them from creating a state. Jordan was able to create a state.

So tell us why they require Israel to create a state for themselves.
 
a_unique_person said:
But I have already been told here that the Palestinians can demand nothing. The negotiations seem to be pointless.
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Well in the internal dialogue and press they demand the killing and expulsion of all Jews. In the negotiations they consider the Right of Return a deal-breaker, because they know that nobody in Israel would ever accept seven million Arab refugees (who have grown up on the poisonous propaganda they spread in the refugee camps). So yes, the negotiations are indeed pointless.
 
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HoverBoarder said:
Not really that many. How did he get on the list?
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Because he "engaged in pointless massive killings".

None of your links give any numbers to support your "large number of people" claim, which I notice you have now conveniently interpreted to mean "a whole lot of people", "a number of people", "a whole bunch of people" and "quite alot of people". :-)
 
Jonnyclueless said:
How is Israel stopping them from having a state? They can start one any time they want, but they instead insist on having certain land. As if that cannot be negotiated afterwords. Israel is willing to negotiate land terms and it hasn't prevented them from creating a state. Jordan was able to create a state.

So tell us why they require Israel to create a state for themselves.
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create a state when they are occupied? Thats an interesting sort of state.

from the Likud Charter...
"A unilateral Palestinian declaration of the establishment of a Palestinian state will constitute a fundamental and substantive violation of the agreements with the State of Israel and the scuttling of the Oslo and Wye accords. The government will adopt immediate stringent measures in the event of such a declaration."

Thats why they want UN cover for any potential declaration. I've just finished listening to a long list of reasons why even UN support wouldn't work and would not even be possible without Israels permission. What odds are you giving that Palestinians would be able to hold off Israels "immediate stringent measures"?
 
HoverBoarder said:
Originally Posted by HoverBoarder

Greece offered to transfer the goods to Gaza instead, but that was never the point of the flotilla. The point of the flotilla was to obtain media coverage for the plight of the Gazans who have been suffering under intense Hamas and Israeli oppression, but the flotilla only focuses on Israel, and ignores the serious damage to the Gazan people from Hamas.

Gazans would not have nearly as much trouble as they do now if it were not for Hamas. There absolutely should be more people working to better the lives of the people living in Gaza, but blaming all of their problems on Israel, and engaging in dangerous provocative acts like trying to break a Naval blockade for media coverage doesn't actually help Gaza.

If they really want to help, they should put the same intensity towards advocating for both sides to get serious about peace.
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Do you think it's right that the people of Gaza are being punished for electing Hamas?
 
The Fool said:
create a state when they are occupied? Thats an interesting sort of state.

from the Likud Charter...
"A unilateral Palestinian declaration of the establishment of a Palestinian state will constitute a fundamental and substantive violation of the agreements with the State of Israel and the scuttling of the Oslo and Wye accords. The government will adopt immediate stringent measures in the event of such a declaration."

Thats why they want UN cover for any potential declaration. I've just finished listening to a long list of reasons why even UN support wouldn't work and would not even be possible without Israels permission. What odds are you giving that Palestinians would be able to hold off Israels "immediate stringent measures"?
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By occupied you mean they dispute that land Israel has is theirs. How does that prevent them from creating a state which they can later continue to dispute territory just like Israel is doing now? Is Israel an interesting state?

Once again, you mean they WONT create a state unless they get all the land they want first. It kinda shows the priority here which is always that their own well being comes last. It's more important that they elect Hamas to wage war on Israel than to fund their infrastructure just as it's more important that they have certain pieces of land than create a state.

But let's just blame the Israelis.
 
Jonnyclueless said:
By occupied you mean they dispute that land Israel has is theirs. How does that prevent them from creating a state which they can later continue to dispute territory just like Israel is doing now? Is Israel an interesting state?

Once again, you mean they WONT create a state unless they get all the land they want first. It kinda shows the priority here which is always that their own well being comes last. It's more important that they elect Hamas to wage war on Israel than to fund their infrastructure just as it's more important that they have certain pieces of land than create a state.

But let's just blame the Israelis.
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you really have not paid attention to anything I said have you?
 
The Fool said:
you really have not paid attention to anything I said have you?
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And as usual, wasting our time with these kind of comments instead of addressing the conversation. Why don't you save us both some time and put me back on ignore so you don't waste my time?
 
Jonnyclueless said:
And as usual, wasting our time with these kind of comments instead of addressing the conversation. Why don't you save us both some time and put me back on ignore so you don't waste my time?
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what do you imagine would be Israels reaction? Would they just smile wave and leave?
 
The Fool said:
what do you imagine would be Israels reaction? Would they just smile wave and leave?
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Once again, your position is that it's not possible for them to have a state unless they get the land they want first. No they wouldn't leave. Now what is stopping them?
 
WildCat said:
A simple question: if the party of a genocidal anti-semitic terrorist group was running for office in Australia would you consider voting for them if you liked their economic policy?
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Well, it happened before...

The folks excusing Hamas here are using exactly the same excuses the folks back then did to excuse the Nazis, to wit:

1). The Nazis aren't really antisemitic, but merely want to "correct the injustice" of the "Jewish" treaty of Versailles, or of Jewish over-representation in the professions;

2). Even if they are genocidal antisemites, it's a justified reaction to the evils the Jews did to them;

3). Even if they are genocidal antisemites for no good reason, it's not a big deal, because they "brought unity" or "cured corruption" or "stood up to the occupiers" or a million other nice things;

4). They are not really antisemites but actually patriots, because they would hate equally any other evil, uppity nation that dared to treat them so unjustly. If the Eskimos were behind the evil Versailles treaty, for example, the Nazis would have hated the Eskimos equally.
 
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Skeptic said:
Well, it happened before...

The folks excusing Hamas here are using exactly the same excuses the folks back then did to excuse the Nazis, to wit:

1). The Nazis aren't really antisemitic, but merely want to "correct the injustice" of the "Jewish" treaty of Versailles, or of Jewish over-representation in the professions;

2). Even if they are genocidal antisemites, it's a justified reaction to the evils the Jews did to them;

3). Even if they are genocidal antisemites for no good reason, it's not a big deal, because they "brought unity" or "cured corruption" or "stood up to the occupiers" or a million other nice things;

4). They are not really antisemites but actually patriots, because they would hate equally any other evil, uppity nation that dared to treat them so unjustly. If the Eskimos were behind the evil Versailles treaty, for example, the Nazis would have hated the Eskimos equally.
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You are very slow to understand anything, aren't you. Every time you repeat it back, you get it completely wrong. Hitler hated the Jews because he wrongly believed that they caused Germany to lose WWI and caused the the chaos that ensued after it. He hated the French because of the Treaty of Versailles and invaded and conquered them, making them sign their surrender in the same train car that Germany had had to sign it's surrender after it conquered them. So if you swap Eskimo's for French, you are getting closer. His anti-semitism was based on completely wrong logic, the Jews didn't make Germany lose WWI, nor cause the chaos and poverty that followed them losing WWI. The whole idea was just a result of his paranoia and not based on any facts.

Much of what Hamas says is really anti-semitic. Yes, really.
 
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Jonnyclueless said:
Once again, your position is that it's not possible for them to have a state unless they get the land they want first. No they wouldn't leave. Now what is stopping them?
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Israel, for one thing.

The Palestinian Authority has a plan for diplomatic counterattack to Israel's efforts to foil recognition of a Palestinian state at the United Nations General Assembly in September, according to internal Foreign Ministry documents. Ahead of the fateful vote, Israel and the PA are scrambling for every vote, even in the most distant corners of the world.
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http://www.haaretz.com/print-editio...ahead-of-september-vote-on-statehood-1.371198

Not to mention the Likud charter.

  • The 'Peace & Security' chapter of the 1999 Likud Party platform rejects a Palestinian state.
"The Government of Israel flatly rejects the establishment of a Palestinian Arab state west of the Jordan river. The Palestinians can run their lives freely in the framework of self-rule, but not as an independent and sovereign state. Thus, for example, in matters of foreign affairs, security, immigration and ecology, their activity shall be limited in accordance with imperatives of Israel’s existence, security and national needs.
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Likud being the party in power currently, and the party that does it's best to destabilise other peace processes.
 
Virus said:
I believe Israel should defend itself by preventing arms shipments to terrorists.
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Great. Well, since none of these boats are carrying weapons of any sort, there's no reason for Israel to prevent them from reaching Gaza.
 
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