Merged General Israel/Palestine discussion thread - Part 2

[I Am The Scum]

Forgive my ignorance of the situation, but has there been any evidence pointing to those responsible for the death of the three kids at the start of all this? Has anyone claimed responsibility?

 

[Ziggurat]

Nah...Netenyahu would never say that. Instead, he should just say the truth - which would go something like this:

Yeah...there is no way Israel is giving back any land, and we're eventually going to take it all...because God says it is ours.

Your derangement is becoming more and more evident. Israel has already given back land. They have already proven your claims false. Your persistence in clinging to what you cannot honestly be ignorant of proves that your opinions are not merely ignorant, they are malicious.

Antisemitism is the canary in the global coalmine of stupidity.

 

[Jules Galen]

Your derangement is becoming more and more evident. Israel has already given back land. They have already proven your claims false. Your persistence in clinging to what you cannot honestly be ignorant of proves that your opinions are not merely ignorant, they are malicious.

Antisemitism is the canary in the global coalmine of stupidity.

Ahhh...the 'Ole "Your either with us, or you're a Jew Hater" routine coupled with "They've already given back some of that Land they stole...what, you want them to give back everything they stole?"

So...let's get this straight. If someone objects to the Israelis stealing land, then they are a Anti-semitic? That is one hell of an argument!

 

[Jules Galen]

Forgive my ignorance of the situation, but has there been any evidence pointing to those responsible for the death of the three kids at the start of all this? Has anyone claimed responsibility?

Nope. But that didn't stop the Israelis from laying blame and cracking heads.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_kidnapping_and_murder_of_Israeli_teenagers

 

[Ziggurat]

Ahhh...the 'Ole "Your either with us, or you're a Jew Hater" routine coupled with "They've already given back some of that Land they stole...what, you want them to give back everything they stole?"

I see you've shifted your goalpost in an attempt to avoid addressing the utter falsity of your slander. It won't work. You didn't simply claim that they wouldn't give back everything, you claimed that they would take everything. And history has already proven you wrong, and you already know that.

So...let's get this straight. If someone objects to the Israelis stealing land, then they are a Anti-semitic? That is one hell of an argument!

No, Jules. I think you're antisemitic because you lied. You did not simply object to past actions, you denied proven past actions, and claimed motives which those past actions already contradict.

You are incapable of honest debate.

 

[Jono]

Leverage to do what? Stop Israel? No, they can't do that

No, not to stop Israel (at least not by military force). But Hamas is not 'really' fighting a ground-war, not chiefly. The leverage they gain is almost directly interchangable with the crocodile tears they gain with the world assembly of human rights et al. It doesn't even need to be said that Hamas has next to no concern for the lifes of the palestinians. They don't have any (or at least, not much). They might even have less concern for dead civilian palestinians than Israel does, if possible.

And they'd have to be stupid not to recognize that Hamas brought all this unnecessary pain down on their heads, and didn't even manage to inflict much hurt on Israel in return.

They are stupid. They're just too desperate, bruised and battered to realise that. Last time this scale of Gaza-Israel conflict happend, where Hamas sent over 600-700 rockets into Israel and "only" killing three israelis (which is indeed bad enough, not making light of those who died), whereas Israel roled in and killed 800+ of Gaza-residents (no idea how many were active/willing combatants) it dawned on me that Hamas had to have the worst 'rocketeers' in history, as their hit-vs-miss ratio is abyssmal.

Propaganda can do a lot, but it's not omnipotent. Do you honestly not think that will hurt Hamas's own credibility within Gaza?

Well I really do hope it will. But considering how things like this have played out in history, I'm not counting on it. I'm, unwillingly, second-guessing the prowess of propaganda. It tends to tap into resources like few other ventures, or should I say ailments?

 

[Jono]

Well...not that their "Blood" doesn't matter - it creates some epic photos that can be transmitted about the world and gain some sympathy. However, directly attacking Israel with those pathetic rockets like Hamas does? There's just got to be a better way. But...Israel keeps falling for the bait! I am amazed.

Why do you think they do it? To maximize the body-count of dead israelis? No, they mostly rattle their fire on a level of garage-hoodlums who found rocket launchers, then run n hide amongst the population and just wait for the IDF to go into overkill, as they habitually do.

 

[Ziggurat]

No, not to stop Israel (at least not by military force). But Hamas is not 'really' fighting a ground-war, not chiefly. The leverage they gain is almost directly interchangable with the crocodile tears they gain with the world assembly of human rights et al.

But it's not working. They aren't getting leverage. Check out this Egyptian response:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7VtENBF_yjo
The Egyptians (who are no friends of the Israelis, believe me) are blaming Hamas for this. The Egyptians are saying that there's no prospect of victory, and that Hamas's leaders are hypocrites for living large while the Palestinian people are suffering. I haven't heard anything out of Saudi Arabia - they may have issued some routine denunciations, but if so, they don't seem to be putting a lot of effort into it. Iran is already fully dedicated to the kill Jews cause, they're not going to do anything more in response, and because of Egypt cracking down on tunnels into Gaza, they may have less they can do. Syria and Iraq are fully engaged in far more serious conflicts of their own. Jordan is probably also more worried about ISIS than Israel. Turkey may make noises, but won't act. Europe is backing Israel, so economic sanctions aren't a threat. China doesn't give a crap about the Palestinians, and Russia is also occupied elsewhere. And even internally, Israel is united against Hamas this time, they won't get any relief from the opposition parties.

So what's this leverage supposed to do for Hamas? Because it looks to me like they can't do anything with it.

 

[Jules Galen]

They are stupid. They're just too desperate, bruised and battered to realise that. Last time this scale of Gaza-Israel conflict happend, where Hamas sent over 600-700 rockets into Israel and "only" killing three israelis (which is indeed bad enough, not making light of those who died), whereas Israel roled in and killed 800+ of Gaza-residents (no idea how many were active/willing combatants) it dawned on me that Hamas had to have the worst 'rocketeers' in history, as their hit-vs-miss ratio is abyssmal.

You're right. Hamas sucks at Rockets. Seriously...they actually suck at about everything.

However, if Hamas were playing a real hard game, they'd make sure that none of those Rockets killed any Israeli. Even if that meant they had to have their warheads removed and shot into open desert. But...for sure they should try to get as many rockets as possible to activate "Iron Dome" - because that costs Israel a lot of money per shot, and it's pretty spectacular, too - and it would make it look like Hamas was really trying. Also, Hamas needs some positive name for these rockets....like "Defend the Children" rockets. It sounds like a stupid name, but if it repeated often enough people will become inured to the stupidity.

Also...Hamas should give a warning to all the Israelis on their website saying "Exit the area, we are going to shoot rockets now to 'Defend the Children' ". Then, if any Israelis actually are harmed by the "Defend the Children" rockets, then Hamas can scream that Israeli authorities would not allow the innocent civilians to evacuate...because they use Israeli citizens as "Human Shields".

Then, after Israel takes the bait and gets all self-righteous and kills about a 1000 Palestinians while no Israelis killed - Hamas could better make a case that they were being bullied and that Israel was commiting War Crimes - they could even call for a Trial at the Hague.. And...while all those people are being killed, there are sure to be some iconic photographic opportunities of children and suffering that will bring the world to tears - like the photo of that poor dead Palestinian Boy on the Beach that made world headlines..

I know this doesn't seem to make sense to the Hardware Junkies who think War is all about whose Missile is Bigger, but it might be a better strategy.

 

[Eddie Dane]

You're right. Hamas sucks at Rockets. Seriously...they actually suck at about everything.

However, if Hamas were playing a real hard game, they'd make sure that none of those Rockets killed any Israeli. Even if that meant they had to have their warheads removed and shot into open desert. But...for sure they should try to get as many rockets as possible to activate "Iron Dome" - because that costs Israel a lot of money per shot, and it's pretty spectacular, too - and it would make it look like Hamas was really trying. Also, Hamas needs some positive name for these rockets....like "Defend the Children" rockets. It sounds like a stupid name, but if it repeated often enough people will become inured to the stupidity.

Also...Hamas should give a warning to all the Israelis on their website saying "Exit the area, we are going to shoot rockets now to 'Defend the Children' ". Then, if any Israelis actually are harmed by the "Defend the Children" rockets, then Hamas can scream that Israeli authorities would not allow the innocent civilians to evacuate...because they use Israeli citizens as "Human Shields".

Then, after Israel takes the bait and gets all self-righteous and kills about a 1000 Palestinians while no Israelis killed - Hamas could better make a case that they were being bullied and that Israel was commiting War Crimes - they could even call for a Trial at the Hague.. And...while all those people are being killed, there are sure to be some iconic photographic opportunities of children and suffering that will bring the world to tears - like the photo of that poor dead Palestinian Boy on the Beach that made world headlines..

I know this doesn't seem to make sense to the Hardware Junkies who think War is all about whose Missile is Bigger, but it might be a better strategy.

Logical fallacy salad.

 

[Jono]

So what's this leverage supposed to do for Hamas? Because it looks to me like they can't do anything with it.

Maybe I am a bit numbed from how it has worked before, and not really picked up on any notable changes of attitude yet. I hope you're right. Because this homicidal cat n mouse game has gone on long enough. I'm not as optimistic as you about a shift like so, at this moment. Well, not yet anyway.

 

[Jules Galen]

Logical fallacy salad.

Yes...it was. So what?

If people were Logical, War would be history.

 

[Jono]

You're right. Hamas sucks at Rockets. Seriously...they actually suck at about everything.

Well they do. Whether intentionally or not, they are a military disaster. This battle is between two world-class screw up Camp-Champs, with Hamas owning the garage and Israel owning the freeway. And its mostly innocents caught in the cross-hairs, as usual.

 

[Jules Galen]

Well they do. Whether intentionally or not, they are a military disaster. This battle is between two world-class screw up Camp-Champs, with Hamas owning the garage and Israel owning the freeway. And its mostly innocents caught in the cross-hairs, as usual.

What's so terrible is that so many of the combatants believe they are dying for some noble cause...and they are not. The only people who truly win a War are the guys who make money from it. The rest are either cannon fodder or tools.

 

[Jono]

What's so terrible is that so many of the combatants believe they are dying for some noble cause...and they are not. The only people who truly win a War are the guys who make money from it. The rest are either cannon fodder or tools.

In warfare, people eat desperation like candy and spit blood like water. In war, that is what they do, and it is the job of their authorities to see to it that none is the wiser about anything, or too much of anything, besides the illusion of 'black' vs 'white'. Or, at least, that'd be a crude observation of past conflicts in general.

 

[Jules Galen]

In warfare, people eat desperation like candy and spit blood like water. In war, that is what they do, and it is the job of their authorities to see to it that none is the wiser about anything, or too much of anything, besides the illusion of 'black' vs 'white'. Or, at least, that'd be a crude observation of past conflicts in general.

When I was younger, I bought into all that 'black' vs 'white' narrative. However, as I grew older and actually studied War and it's causes, I quickly left that mindset behind.

I guess my first epiphany was the Vietnam War. As an American,i had always been told how neccessary that war was and how we fought real well, but we lost because we were betrayed by a bunch of back-stabbing politicians, journalists and movie stars (yeah...movie stars - Jane Fonda). Well...My God! If the likes of Jane Fonda are so dangerous, then why didn't we weaponize her and send her to Moscow? The cold war would have been over in days!

 

[KumarS]

But it's not working. They aren't getting leverage. Check out this Egyptian response:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7VtENBF_yjo
The Egyptians (who are no friends of the Israelis, believe me) are blaming Hamas for this.

Egypt is under a dictactorship and this wont last long
The big players in the region, Turkey, IS and Iran are all against Isreal

Turkey PM slams Egypt's 'illegitimate tyrant' Sisi
http://news.yahoo.com/turkey-pm-erdogan-slams-egypts-illegitimate-tyrant-sisi-130905463.html

Turkey's Erdogan Condemns Israel Over Gaza
http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/turkeys-erdogan-condemns-israel-gaza-24616920

Iranian Leader Encourages Hamas in 'Struggle Against Occupation'
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/183048#.U8mgivmSxZ8

 

[KumarS]

Why do you think they do it? To maximize the body-count of dead israelis? No, they mostly rattle their fire on a level of garage-hoodlums who found rocket launchers, then run n hide amongst the population and just wait for the IDF to go into overkill, as they habitually do.

Not for long.

Iran is getting nukes, the Islamic State is sweeping Iraq and Syria
Israel is going to be encircled very soon.
They it will be game over for them

 

[dudalb]

Not for long.

Iran is getting nukes, the Islamic State is sweeping Iraq and Syria
Israel is going to be encircled very soon.
They it will be game over for them

That Israel also has nukes seems to have been left out of your calculations.

BTW the Islamic State told all CHristians..and I suspect all non Muslims to pay a heavy tax to an Islamic court, get out, or die.
These are the people you cheerlead for??????

 

[uke2se]

Not for long.

Iran is getting nukes, the Islamic State is sweeping Iraq and Syria
Israel is going to be encircled very soon.
They it will be game over for them

You just don't get it, do you? The entities you talk about are enemies. Of each other. The ISIS are fighting a muslim civil war. None of them are going to bail Hamas out of this mess.

As for Israel, they've been surrounded since 1948, been attacked on all fronts three times and emerged stronger. None of the nations around Israel has a chance in hell. Neither does ISIS and certainly not Hamas. You are going to have to look elsewhere for your dead-jews fix.