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General Israel/Palestine discussion thread - Part 4

can we stop with the incessant gaslighting?

At this moment, the only question everyone needs to answer is: is the only way Israel can achieve its military and political goals to commit War Crimes, Crimes against Humanity and Genocide?

If no, then Israel is guilty of terrible atrocity just because it can, not because it has to.
If yes, then its military and political goals are incompatible with Civilization.
 
can we stop with the incessant gaslighting?

At this moment, the only question everyone needs to answer is: is the only way Israel can achieve its military and political goals to commit War Crimes, Crimes against Humanity and Genocide?

If no, then Israel is guilty of terrible atrocity just because it can, not because it has to.
If yes, then its military and political goals are incompatible with Civilization.
Thank you for this perfect example of gaslighting.
 
For those who are still following the events surrounding Gaza's ongoing descent into the abyss, these remarks by the head of Israel's military are worth reposting here:

As for gaslighting, just check out this statement from the UN chief --
“Gaza is destroyed, but Hamas is not yet destroyed. So there is something fundamentally wrong with the way this is conducted.”
HAMAS is not 'destroyed' because HAMAS is integral to the societal and cultural fabric of Gaza.
Mosques, daycare, health clinics, food-distribution, schools, policing, issuing permits, providing jobs, and of course, their 'armed wing' with rockets and tunnels that co-opted the civilians into unwilling participants in the 'resistance' perpetrated upon Israel by those jihadists. The fact remains, in any future scenario, HAMAS will continue to exist as an element of life in Gaza.

Israel is doing what the UN cannot (or doesn't wish to) accomplish, in pursuit of HAMAS operatives.
 
can we stop with the incessant gaslighting?

At this moment, the only question everyone needs to answer is: is the only way Israel can achieve its military and political goals to commit War Crimes, Crimes against Humanity and Genocide?

If no, then Israel is guilty of terrible atrocity just because it can, not because it has to.
If yes, then its military and political goals are incompatible with Civilization.
Why would Israel's military and political goals be incompatible with Civilization?

Hamas's military and political goals have long been deemed compatible with Civilization, in the form of widespread support, including in the UN, for their cause. And their entire strategy is a miserable pile of war crimes, crimes against humanity, and genocide. What's good enough for Palestinians should be good enough for Jews, but once again the anti-semitic double standard rears its ugly head. When will you stop with the incessant gaslighting?
 
Moving goal posts?
Even British people living in Great Britain must know that their Celtic and Germanic and French ancestors displaced earlier waves of settlers on those isles.
So you are not referencing the Norman-French, Norse, Anglo-Saxon, Roman or Celts, but now are moving right back to the beaker people. Your original statement was factually wrong, because you have now found another case that is arguably true doesn't mean your original claim was correct.
 
Why would Israel's military and political goals be incompatible with Civilization?

Hamas's military and political goals have long been deemed compatible with Civilization, in the form of widespread support, including in the UN, for their cause. And their entire strategy is a miserable pile of war crimes, crimes against humanity, and genocide. What's good enough for Palestinians should be good enough for Jews, but once again the anti-semitic double standard rears its ugly head. When will you stop with the incessant gaslighting?
I think no one has claimed hamas military goals (whatever they are) are compatible with civilisation. The claim is politically Hamas' goals were not what israeli propaganda claimed them to be. Hamas clearly made attempts at a peaceful resolution, with an offer that could have been the basis of negotiation, if not immediately accepted (FWIW I think an offer of one hundred years acceptance of the existence of the Israeli state as a jewish state on the 1968 borders was a reasonable start to negotiations) but Israel refused to negotiate (as did the US). Hamas had clearly made a change from the historic anti-semitic / racist views to a much more limited political view of changing the Israeli state from being a Jewish state. The change from Israel being a jewish state is then interpreted as being anti-jewish and equating to an end of jews. that is clearly not what was meant, the end of israel as an avowedly jewish state that discriminates against non-jews is not the same as being genocidal. There is no evidence that the current Hamas is either politically genocidal, nor capable of being genocidal in a military fashion.
 
I think no one has claimed hamas military goals (whatever they are) are compatible with civilisation.
I have.

.Hamas clearly made attempts at a peaceful resolution
You lie. October 7 was not an attempt at peaceful resolution. All that remains is to see whether you will condemn terrorists for inciting Israeli retaliation, the same way you condemn Israel for inciting terrorist retaliation. (Spoiler: You won't.)
 
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I have.


You lie. October 7 was not an attempt at peaceful resolution. All that remains is to see whether you will condemn terrorists for inciting Israeli retaliation, the same way you condemn Israel for inciting terrorist retaliation. (Spoiler: You won't.)
I have repeatedly condemned Hamas for criminal acts.

So you are the liar. Liar, liar, liar.

I deeply resent the fact that you haven't bothered to read my many previous posts where i have done so and accuse me of defending terrorism by Hamas. i have always been clear the crimes of Hamas should be punished. The crimes of the IDF should be punished. the crimes of Hamas do not justify crimes by Israel. I think you owe me an apology.

The attempts at negotiation proceeded 07/10. That is what is tragic. If Israel had responded to Hamas prior to 07/10 then all the Israeli (and other nationals deaths) on that day and the tens of thousands of innocent Palestinians killed and wounded by the IDF since could have been avoided. The massive infrastructure destruction and cultural annihilation. The attacks on Lebanon, Syria, Iran with the thousands killed and mutilated by Israel could have been avoided.

You guys don't seem to get it. Real people, children, women. men have been killed, crippled unnecessarily. All because of pride? 'We won't negotiate with terrorists' when they clearly do. Perhaps it is because you have never seen the victims of this type of action. tried to stop the bleeding, fix the broken limbs and held a dying child and had to give the body to the mother. Perhaps if you knew the reality you wouldn't be so cavalier about violence.

To be clear the violence by Hamas was wrong, those who committed crimes on 07/10 should be tried and convicted. I have repeatedly said that.
 
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Moving goal posts?

So you are not referencing the Norman-French, Norse, Anglo-Saxon, Roman or Celts, but now are moving right back to the beaker people. Your original statement was factually wrong, because you have now found another case that is arguably true doesn't mean your original claim was correct.
Er, is this not off topic?
 
There was nothing for Israel or the country's citizens to negotiate about. The one-state solution which the Arabs that we call the Palestinians have reverted to after the failure of Oslo, is not a solution.

Also, the Green Line was never a border. At Arab insistence in 1949.

The reality:

The 1949 Armistice Lines (Green Line) were explicitly not borders as The Arab states insisted on this specifically to preserve their claim to all of Palestine.

The agreements stated these were temporary ceasefire lines, not recognized boundaries.

Jordan illegally occupied the West Bank (1948-1967), Egypt occupied Gaza during that period as well and no one called for a Palestinian state then.

Those lines haven't existed since June 1967 - nearly six decades ago.

The rhetorical trick: Calling them "borders" and "1967 borders" at that, makes it sound like Israel is violating established, recognized international boundaries. It implies there was a legitimate Palestinian state with defined borders that Israel invaded and still occupies.

But there never was such a state. The lines were explicitly temporary, explicitly not borders, explicitly subject to negotiation in a final peace settlement.

The deeper irony: The Arab states insisted these weren't borders because they rejected Israel's legitimacy entirely and wanted the option to finish the job later. Now that same rejection of legitimacy is repackaged as "return to 1967 borders" - using lines that only existed because of Arab rejectionism, as if they represented some sacred status quo.

It's like starting a fight, losing, refusing to sign a peace treaty, then 58 years later demanding the other side return to where things stood when you refused to make peace.

The fact-checking failure here is massive and consequential. So many people genuinely don't know these weren't borders.
 
Israel is not interested in 'trying and convicting' HAMAS fighters.
We are interested in killing them, wholesale.

Nothing in your article identifies those killed as associated with Hamas, since this was in the occupied West bank, then it is unlikely they were Hamas. Yes we know IDF kills 'terrorists'. A recent example of their killing unarmed individuals who had surrendered* has been well documented. Of course any one killed by the IDF is defined as a terrorist, there are multiple examples where it has been clearly documented the 'terrorists' were unarmed emergency workers, journalists, aid seekers, children. The IDF lie and have repeatedly been caught out in their lies.

*The IDF and security agencies have a long track record of killing unarmed prisoners.
 
The Arab groups are no better. Or the Axis during WW2.

Nothing in your article identifies those killed as associated with Hamas, since this was in the occupied West bank, then it is unlikely they were Hamas. Yes we know IDF kills 'terrorists'. A recent example of their killing unarmed individuals who had surrendered* has been well documented. Of course any one killed by the IDF is defined as a terrorist, there are multiple examples where it has been clearly documented the 'terrorists' were unarmed emergency workers, journalists, aid seekers, children. The IDF lie and have repeatedly been caught out in their lies.

*The IDF and security agencies have a long track record of killing unarmed prisoners.
 
There was nothing for Israel or the country's citizens to negotiate about. The one-state solution which the Arabs that we call the Palestinians have reverted to after the failure of Oslo, is not a solution.

Also, the Green Line was never a border. At Arab insistence in 1949.

The reality:

The 1949 Armistice Lines (Green Line) were explicitly not borders as The Arab states insisted on this specifically to preserve their claim to all of Palestine.

The agreements stated these were temporary ceasefire lines, not recognized boundaries.

Jordan illegally occupied the West Bank (1948-1967), Egypt occupied Gaza during that period as well and no one called for a Palestinian state then.

Those lines haven't existed since June 1967 - nearly six decades ago.

The rhetorical trick: Calling them "borders" and "1967 borders" at that, makes it sound like Israel is violating established, recognized international boundaries. It implies there was a legitimate Palestinian state with defined borders that Israel invaded and still occupies.

But there never was such a state. The lines were explicitly temporary, explicitly not borders, explicitly subject to negotiation in a final peace settlement.

The deeper irony: The Arab states insisted these weren't borders because they rejected Israel's legitimacy entirely and wanted the option to finish the job later. Now that same rejection of legitimacy is repackaged as "return to 1967 borders" - using lines that only existed because of Arab rejectionism, as if they represented some sacred status quo.

It's like starting a fight, losing, refusing to sign a peace treaty, then 58 years later demanding the other side return to where things stood when you refused to make peace.

The fact-checking failure here is massive and consequential. So many people genuinely don't know these weren't borders.
Do you understand the meaning of negotiation?

Of course the Arab position entering negotiations will be unacceptable to Israel (and vice versa) otherwise no negotiation would be necessary. You may argue the border between North and South Korea is not a border, because it was just the line of deconfliction, but pragmatically it is a border. Whether any particular line becomes a border would be a subject of negotiation. Because some one now dead once said that something was or was not a border does not mean that cannot be rediscussed. talking is much better than killing.

There is something evil about the way some people exalt in the deaths of others.

The refusal to negotiate hasn't brought peace to Israel.
 
I would prefer Israel not justify their acts by saying that they are no worse than those done by Nazis.
And, in turn, I would also prefer that the Friends of Palestine groups (some of which have been chanting down at the SLV on Swanston St. in the last two years) *not* describe Israel's Jewish population as those who helped the Austrian painter who was born in 1889 and died in 1945 do what he did.
 
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What staggers me is the total silence of the Thai Government on this. One of its own people captured and held hostage for so long, and ultimately killed, and yet not a word. Nothing said publicly, at the UN, or any public forum I have been able to track down. I think it is appalling that a State leaves its own to the fate of others - it is a betrayal of the very definition of modern nationhood.

There's nothing in the Bangkok Post or the Nation either, at least on their English-language websites. I assume they have been told by the government not to mention it. Thailand has normal diplomatic relations with Israel. I can only assume the government is afraid of Muslim opinion. There has been a Muslim insurgency in the deep south (the former Sultanate of Patani) for many years, although it has been quiet lately.
 
Not only am I exhalting in the deaths of HAMAS (et.al.), but I expect to see more of that occurring.

As for the claim by planigale that "Israel refuses to negotiate" -- of course we know otherwise.
Israel negotiated with HAMAS (with intermediaries) and successfully obtained the release of hostages.



++++++++++++++++

Thailand certainly isn't desiring a diplomatic fiasco, so they are keeping quiet about their people being killed on 10-7 (dozens of them, in fact).


Between 30,000 and 40,000 Thai laborers work for Israeli farmers.
When Gaza rejuvenation commences, Thai job-seekers (in farming and construction) will likely end up admitted into the Palestinian enclave to assist.

++++++++++++++++

planigale is unaware of HAMAS in the hills & valleys of Judea & Samaria?

She has never heard of Izz al-Din al-Qassam Brigades?
 
Not only am I exhalting in the deaths of HAMAS (et.al.), but I expect to see more of that occurring.
Et.al. Hamas et.al.

Hamas et.al.

You are exalting the deaths of Hamas, and others. The children. The noncombatants. The journalists. The nurses. The aid workers. These are the "et.al." that you are exalting the deaths of.

Monstrous. Absolutely monstrous.
 
Mengele and countless others in civilian occupations helped the Reich in its rampage and those who worked for the Greater East Asia Co-Prosperity Sphere in Unit 731 were civilian MDs and scientists.

In modern war, only the babies and children are pure innocents.
 
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Mengele and countless others in civilian occupations helped the Reich in its rampage and those who worked for the Greater East Asia Co-Prosperity Sphere in Unit 731 were civilian MDs and scientists.

In modern war, only the babies and children are pure innocents.
Kill them all - God will know his own.

I actually went down quite a rabbit hole over the protection of civilians in international law. The Third Geneva Convention (1949), Article 4, outlines safeguards required to Protected Persons, who are certain noncombatants who have fallen into the power of the enemy, but it does not explicitly define "civilian".

Article 48 of Additional Protocol I (1977) defines a civilian as anybody who is not a combatant, and establishes the Distinction Principle whereby belligerents are required to distinguish between enemy combatants and civilians. Article 50 of Additional Protocol I (1977) adds the safeguard in case of doubt whether a person is a civilian, that person shall be considered to be a civilian. These international treaties establish that civilians cannot be the object of attack, collective punishment, torture or murder, that civilian objects and infrastructure cannot be targeted, and that weapons that do not have the capability of distinction between military and civilian targets are forbidden.

However, it should be noted that Israel is not a signatory to Additional Protocol I (nor are India or Türkiye, though 175 other states have ratified it), even though Israel has been a signatory to Geneva Protocols I-IV since 1951. Israel does not therefore observe the requirement in international law to observe the Distinction Principle, the resolution of doubt to civilian status, or the protection of civilian infrastructure.

This is why Israel has no qualms about slaughtering thousands of people who in almost every other country are considered civilian noncombatants and therefore illegitimate and illegal military targets.

The Geneva Conventions (and the Additional Protocols) were adopted specifically to prohibit the horrors of earlier wars. Israel ignores them. Even the Third Convention itself, which was written to protect prisoners of war, and to which Israel is a signatory, is routinely ignored, so that prisoners can be raped and tortured, regardless of their protected status.

Israel doesn't care about international treaties. You would think that the Israelis, having been the victims of the very war crimes that the Geneva Conventions were designed to prevent, would observe these rules of conflict. But they don't. Instead, they define civilians as enemy combatants and slaughter them by the thousands.
 
Has there ever been a war in which there were no civilian casualties? The only one I could think of that might be a candidate was the Falklands War, but when I looked it up even that resulted in three civilian deaths.
 
Has there ever been a war in which there were no civilian casualties? The only one I could think of that might be a candidate was the Falklands War, but when I looked it up even that resulted in three civilian deaths.
Yes. But as i said, idealism twists into fanaticism. I have no time for the FW pacifists who think wars can be fought with only the guilty getting killed.
 
For the record, et.al. refers to OTHER Islamic groups that desire to kill Jews. (I believe you knew exactly what I was saying, and decided to twist and spin that into something else, to vilify the Jewish State.)

Popular Resistance Committees (PRC)
Palestinian Islamic Jihad (PIJ)
Salafi groups (Army of Islam, Jaysh al-Ummah, and the Mujahideen Shura Council, etc.)
et.al
(These fanatic folks have at times clashed with HAMAS forces, accusing them of being too moderate or compromising.)

Today is December 7th.
Just mentioning it; many people forget events like that over time.
 
Not only am I exhalting in the deaths of HAMAS (et.al.), but I expect to see more of that occurring.

As for the claim by planigale that "Israel refuses to negotiate" -- of course we know otherwise.
Israel negotiated with HAMAS (with intermediaries) and successfully obtained the release of hostages.



++++++++++++++++

Thailand certainly isn't desiring a diplomatic fiasco, so they are keeping quiet about their people being killed on 10-7 (dozens of them, in fact).


Between 30,000 and 40,000 Thai laborers work for Israeli farmers.
When Gaza rejuvenation commences, Thai job-seekers (in farming and construction) will likely end up admitted into the Palestinian enclave to assist.

++++++++++++++++

planigale is unaware of HAMAS in the hills & valleys of Judea & Samaria?

She has never heard of Izz al-Din al-Qassam Brigades?
Your article did not identify the people killed as being from any organisation, given that apart from the IDF and Border police the largest armed groups are PIJ and al Quds, so Hamas / al-Qassam is not the most likely attribution.
Yes. But as i said, idealism twists into fanaticism. I have no time for the FW pacifists who think wars can be fought with only the guilty getting killed.
Pacifists are opposed to war, they would rather no one gets killed.

Arbitrarily deciding the enemy are guilty or evil or sub-human is how war crimes are tolerated. It justifies rounding up civilians, putting them into camps starving them, abusing them, denying them legal process, raping them. It justifies taking unarmed civilians and executing them, killing cripples in their hospital beds. Killing journalists. Destroying hospitals, schools, clinics, universities.
 
For the record, et.al. refers to OTHER Islamic groups that desire to kill Jews. (I believe you knew exactly what I was saying, and decided to twist and spin that into something else, to vilify the Jewish State.)

Popular Resistance Committees (PRC)
Palestinian Islamic Jihad (PIJ)
Salafi groups (Army of Islam, Jaysh al-Ummah, and the Mujahideen Shura Council, etc.)
et.al
(These fanatic folks have at times clashed with HAMAS forces, accusing them of being too moderate or compromising.)

Today is December 7th.
Just mentioning it; many people forget events like that over time.
This is exactly what I thought your post was referring to.
 
"Pacifists are opposed to war, they would rather no one gets killed."

Meh.

+++++++++++++++++

Bethlehem.
Crowds return, merriment, visual delights, fine hospitality, prayer, and peace.

Gaza will hopefully one day emerge as the gateway to Bethlehem/Hebron/Al-Quds for tourists who want to visit the NewPalestineState.

+++++++++++++++++

HAMAS leader says the entire concept of the 'Board of Peace' is anathema to them.
No disarmament. No ceding control. No international oversight.
In complete contrast to the agreements being implemented.

P.S. -- The precise location of Ran Gvili's remains are known to HAMAS.

 
Unfortunately
"Pacifists are opposed to war, they would rather no one gets killed."

Meh.

+++++++++++++++++

Bethlehem.
Crowds return, merriment, visual delights, fine hospitality, prayer, and peace.

Gaza will hopefully one day emerge as the gateway to Bethlehem/Hebron/Al-Quds for tourists who want to visit the NewPalestineState.

+++++++++++++++++

HAMAS leader says the entire concept of the 'Board of Peace' is anathema to them.
No disarmament. No ceding control. No international oversight.
In complete contrast to the agreements being implemented.

P.S. -- The precise location of Ran Gvili's remains are known to HAMAS.


Unfortunately things are not so bright for the Christian population.

Beit Sahour in the occupied West Bank – the hillside where, according to the Gospel of Luke, the news of Jesus’s birth was first proclaimed. ...In recent weeks, a new illegal Israeli settlement outpost has been established on the edge of Beit Sahour. Caravans and construction equipment have appeared on a site the town had hoped to use for a children’s hospital, cultural centre, and public spaces – projects supported by international donors and meant to strengthen a Christian community that has endured for centuries. ...Beit Sahour is one of the last majority-Christian towns in the West Bank. Our families are Orthodox, Catholic, and Evangelical. We worship together, marry across traditions, and share a heritage that traces back to the earliest centuries of the Christian story. But like many Palestinian communities, we are running out of land – and with it, out of time.

Due to decades of confiscation, the separation wall, and settlement expansion, only a small fraction of our town remains accessible for Palestinian construction. Youth who wish to build homes often cannot. Parents worry about their children’s future. Families who want to stay rooted in their ancestral land face barriers that make leaving seem like the only viable path.

That is how communities disappear. Not because they stop believing, but because the conditions required for them to flourish are steadily stripped away by the Israeli military occupation of their land.

The aspiration for Jewish safety is legitimate and deeply important – especially after centuries of anti-Semitism, culminating in the horrors of the Holocaust. No person of faith should ever be indifferent to the vulnerability of Jewish communities.

But affirming Jewish safety does not require silence when Palestinian Christian and Muslim families lose their land, face escalating violence, or see their future shrinking. Safety for one people cannot be built on the insecurity of another. There is no moral framework – Christian, Jewish, or secular – that asks us to choose between the dignity of one child and the dignity of another.

If anything, the deeply biblical truth is that justice is indivisible. When we diminish one community’s rights to protect another, both are ultimately harmed.

 
Why should Jews be prohibited from living in the area of Bethlehem? Is there something inherently problematic with Jewish residence alongside Arabs? (Christian or otherwise)

There are many communities worldwide whose 'centuries-old way of life' cannot be sustained in the 21st.

Bet Sahur is not under 'threat' -- unless you consider Jews living in the HolyLand an abomination and requiring violent reactions. Which many do.

The issue of Jewish communities across the defunct greenlines is one which has many implications and controversies. From Hebron, to the Temple Mount, to Ariel, to Alfe Menashe, to Maale Adumim.

Israeli government actions are ongoing to keep a lid on the friction.

I note with interest the increase of enlistment to the IDF by Christian Arabs.
 
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Has there ever been a war in which there were no civilian casualties? The only one I could think of that might be a candidate was the Falklands War, but when I looked it up even that resulted in three civilian deaths.
The Geneva Conventions hold that belligerents must not intentionally target civilians or civilian infrastructure and must minimise the impact to civilians.

Of course, we've seen another blatant breach of the Geneva Conventions by another nation recently, since they specifically and directly talk about shipwreck survivors, but that's for a different thread.
 
Why should Jews be prohibited from living in the area of Bethlehem? Is there something inherently problematic with Jewish residence alongside Arabs? (Christian or otherwise
There are many communities worldwide whose 'centuries-old way of life' cannot be sustained in the 21st.

Bet Sahur is not under 'threat' -- unless you consider Jews living in the HolyLand an abomination and requiring violent reactions. Which many do.

The issue of Jewish communities across the defunct greenlines is one which has many implications and controversies. From Hebron, to the Temple Mount, to Ariel, to Alfe Menashe, to Maale Adumim.

Israeli government actions are ongoing to keep a lid on the friction.

I note with interest the increase of enlistment to the IDF by Christian Arabs.
I think they are what are called illegal immigrants since this is not part of Israel (if it was those Palestinians living there would also be Israeli citizens). They are squatters they have set up home on land that does not belong to them. They are criminals and terrorists who attack their neighbours set fir to their homes, kill their livestock, tear down their orchards. They are committing a war crime by displacing persons from their homes in an occupied territory.

Trump would have a dim view of Mexicans who crossed the US border, set up homes on other peoples land, attacked their neighbours, all on the basis that Texas is a historic part of Mexico.
 
The US border with Mexico is not disputed.
The 1949 Lines are disputed as being 'borders' at all.
 
relevance?
This - where a western academic (the western academy is a strong hold of the Western far-left - Ms. Conor is a supporter and has been a candidate for the Australian and Victorian Greens) tried to separate the civil servants of Gaza from Hama's militants. As with the Reich and Japan, Hamas wouldn't have been able to do what they did with educated civilians' skills and know-how. (" Hamas itself was also undifferentiated from a civil governing body running hospitals and its militants").

 
Two stories, I want to juxtapose them here ---

#One: IDF recruits at the induction center, interviewed along with their parents and loved ones.
"We will protect our nation from enemies..."

#Two: HAMAS leader declares they will not rest until Israel is no more.

The World's Western culture is in a moment of profound confusion, where moral relativism, ideological extremism, and the fear of being labeled “controversial” have many people retreating from their own principles. Israel, in this moment, exposes that crisis with painful clarity. If you cannot say which side stands for individual liberty and which side glorifies death and destruction, the issue isn’t Israel. The issue is you.

In previous posts, thePrestige made comments regarding the shifting of moral burden to Israel, while excusing HAMAS et al.
This opinion piece was published yesterday, and covers that exact point quite nicely:
 
Jewish presence in the HolyLand is being renewed and invigorated.
The best answer to Islamic maniac jihadists.

 

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