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General Israel/Palestine discussion thread - Part 4

Mengele and countless others in civilian occupations helped the Reich in its rampage and those who worked for the Greater East Asia Co-Prosperity Sphere in Unit 731 were civilian MDs and scientists.

In modern war, only the babies and children are pure innocents.
 
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NatalieSalat said:
Mengele and countless others in civilian occupations helped the Reich in its rampage and those who worked for the Greater East Asia Co-Prosperity Sphere in Unit 731 were civilian MDs and scientists.

In modern war, only the babies and children are pure innocents.
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Kill them all - God will know his own.

I actually went down quite a rabbit hole over the protection of civilians in international law. The Third Geneva Convention (1949), Article 4, outlines safeguards required to Protected Persons, who are certain noncombatants who have fallen into the power of the enemy, but it does not explicitly define "civilian".

Article 48 of Additional Protocol I (1977) defines a civilian as anybody who is not a combatant, and establishes the Distinction Principle whereby belligerents are required to distinguish between enemy combatants and civilians. Article 50 of Additional Protocol I (1977) adds the safeguard in case of doubt whether a person is a civilian, that person shall be considered to be a civilian. These international treaties establish that civilians cannot be the object of attack, collective punishment, torture or murder, that civilian objects and infrastructure cannot be targeted, and that weapons that do not have the capability of distinction between military and civilian targets are forbidden.

However, it should be noted that Israel is not a signatory to Additional Protocol I (nor are India or Türkiye, though 175 other states have ratified it), even though Israel has been a signatory to Geneva Protocols I-IV since 1951. Israel does not therefore observe the requirement in international law to observe the Distinction Principle, the resolution of doubt to civilian status, or the protection of civilian infrastructure.

This is why Israel has no qualms about slaughtering thousands of people who in almost every other country are considered civilian noncombatants and therefore illegitimate and illegal military targets.

The Geneva Conventions (and the Additional Protocols) were adopted specifically to prohibit the horrors of earlier wars. Israel ignores them. Even the Third Convention itself, which was written to protect prisoners of war, and to which Israel is a signatory, is routinely ignored, so that prisoners can be raped and tortured, regardless of their protected status.

Israel doesn't care about international treaties. You would think that the Israelis, having been the victims of the very war crimes that the Geneva Conventions were designed to prevent, would observe these rules of conflict. But they don't. Instead, they define civilians as enemy combatants and slaughter them by the thousands.
 
Has there ever been a war in which there were no civilian casualties? The only one I could think of that might be a candidate was the Falklands War, but when I looked it up even that resulted in three civilian deaths.
 
Pixel42 said:
Has there ever been a war in which there were no civilian casualties? The only one I could think of that might be a candidate was the Falklands War, but when I looked it up even that resulted in three civilian deaths.
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Yes. But as i said, idealism twists into fanaticism. I have no time for the FW pacifists who think wars can be fought with only the guilty getting killed.
 
For the record, et.al. refers to OTHER Islamic groups that desire to kill Jews. (I believe you knew exactly what I was saying, and decided to twist and spin that into something else, to vilify the Jewish State.)

Popular Resistance Committees (PRC)
Palestinian Islamic Jihad (PIJ)
Salafi groups (Army of Islam, Jaysh al-Ummah, and the Mujahideen Shura Council, etc.)
et.al (These fanatic folks have at times clashed with HAMAS forces, accusing them of being too moderate or compromising.)

Today is December 7th.
Just mentioning it; many people forget events like that over time.
 
webfusion said:
Not only am I exhalting in the deaths of HAMAS (et.al.), but I expect to see more of that occurring.

As for the claim by planigale that "Israel refuses to negotiate" -- of course we know otherwise.
Israel negotiated with HAMAS (with intermediaries) and successfully obtained the release of hostages.

www.jpost.com

Gaza talks at 'critical' moment, Qatari prime minister says | The Jerusalem Post

Mediators are working together to force the next phase of ceasefire forward, he said during a panel at the Doha Forum conference in Qatar.
www.jpost.com www.jpost.com


++++++++++++++++

Thailand certainly isn't desiring a diplomatic fiasco, so they are keeping quiet about their people being killed on 10-7 (dozens of them, in fact).

www.jpost.com

Tehran's secret demand aimed at crippling Israel's farming | The Jerusalem Post

If Thailand complied, it would deliver a painful blow to Israel’s agricultural sector at the very moment it was struggling to recover from the shock of the attack.
www.jpost.com www.jpost.com

Between 30,000 and 40,000 Thai laborers work for Israeli farmers.
When Gaza rejuvenation commences, Thai job-seekers (in farming and construction) will likely end up admitted into the Palestinian enclave to assist.

++++++++++++++++

planigale is unaware of HAMAS in the hills & valleys of Judea & Samaria?

She has never heard of Izz al-Din al-Qassam Brigades?
Click to expand...
Your article did not identify the people killed as being from any organisation, given that apart from the IDF and Border police the largest armed groups are PIJ and al Quds, so Hamas / al-Qassam is not the most likely attribution.
NatalieSalat said:
Yes. But as i said, idealism twists into fanaticism. I have no time for the FW pacifists who think wars can be fought with only the guilty getting killed.
Click to expand...
Pacifists are opposed to war, they would rather no one gets killed.

Arbitrarily deciding the enemy are guilty or evil or sub-human is how war crimes are tolerated. It justifies rounding up civilians, putting them into camps starving them, abusing them, denying them legal process, raping them. It justifies taking unarmed civilians and executing them, killing cripples in their hospital beds. Killing journalists. Destroying hospitals, schools, clinics, universities.
 
webfusion said:
For the record, et.al. refers to OTHER Islamic groups that desire to kill Jews. (I believe you knew exactly what I was saying, and decided to twist and spin that into something else, to vilify the Jewish State.)

Popular Resistance Committees (PRC)
Palestinian Islamic Jihad (PIJ)
Salafi groups (Army of Islam, Jaysh al-Ummah, and the Mujahideen Shura Council, etc.)
et.al (These fanatic folks have at times clashed with HAMAS forces, accusing them of being too moderate or compromising.)

Today is December 7th.
Just mentioning it; many people forget events like that over time.
Click to expand...
This is exactly what I thought your post was referring to.
 
"Pacifists are opposed to war, they would rather no one gets killed."

Meh.

+++++++++++++++++

Bethlehem.
Crowds return, merriment, visual delights, fine hospitality, prayer, and peace.
www.ynetnews.com

Christmas celebrations return to Bethlehem after 2 years of war in Gaza

After two bleak holiday seasons, families and vendors fill Manger Square again as Bethlehem cautiously rebuilds its tourism lifeline, even as West Bank tensions, checkpoints and violence temper hopes for recovery and peace
www.ynetnews.com www.ynetnews.com

Gaza will hopefully one day emerge as the gateway to Bethlehem/Hebron/Al-Quds for tourists who want to visit the NewPalestineState.

+++++++++++++++++

HAMAS leader says the entire concept of the 'Board of Peace' is anathema to them.
No disarmament. No ceding control. No international oversight.
In complete contrast to the agreements being implemented.

P.S. -- The precise location of Ran Gvili's remains are known to HAMAS.

www.jpost.com

Israelis: Gaza terror groups can reach hostage Ran Gvili | The Jerusalem Post

The Coordinator for Hostages and Missing Persons Gal Hirsch left for Cairo for talks on Gvili's return, as well as advancement to the second phase of the hostage and ceasefire deal.
www.jpost.com www.jpost.com
 
Unfortunately
webfusion said:
"Pacifists are opposed to war, they would rather no one gets killed."

Meh.

+++++++++++++++++

Bethlehem.
Crowds return, merriment, visual delights, fine hospitality, prayer, and peace.
www.ynetnews.com

Christmas celebrations return to Bethlehem after 2 years of war in Gaza

After two bleak holiday seasons, families and vendors fill Manger Square again as Bethlehem cautiously rebuilds its tourism lifeline, even as West Bank tensions, checkpoints and violence temper hopes for recovery and peace
www.ynetnews.com www.ynetnews.com

Gaza will hopefully one day emerge as the gateway to Bethlehem/Hebron/Al-Quds for tourists who want to visit the NewPalestineState.

+++++++++++++++++

HAMAS leader says the entire concept of the 'Board of Peace' is anathema to them.
No disarmament. No ceding control. No international oversight.
In complete contrast to the agreements being implemented.

P.S. -- The precise location of Ran Gvili's remains are known to HAMAS.

www.jpost.com

Israelis: Gaza terror groups can reach hostage Ran Gvili | The Jerusalem Post

The Coordinator for Hostages and Missing Persons Gal Hirsch left for Cairo for talks on Gvili's return, as well as advancement to the second phase of the hostage and ceasefire deal.
www.jpost.com www.jpost.com
Click to expand...

Unfortunately things are not so bright for the Christian population.

Beit Sahour in the occupied West Bank – the hillside where, according to the Gospel of Luke, the news of Jesus’s birth was first proclaimed. ...In recent weeks, a new illegal Israeli settlement outpost has been established on the edge of Beit Sahour. Caravans and construction equipment have appeared on a site the town had hoped to use for a children’s hospital, cultural centre, and public spaces – projects supported by international donors and meant to strengthen a Christian community that has endured for centuries. ...Beit Sahour is one of the last majority-Christian towns in the West Bank. Our families are Orthodox, Catholic, and Evangelical. We worship together, marry across traditions, and share a heritage that traces back to the earliest centuries of the Christian story. But like many Palestinian communities, we are running out of land – and with it, out of time.

Due to decades of confiscation, the separation wall, and settlement expansion, only a small fraction of our town remains accessible for Palestinian construction. Youth who wish to build homes often cannot. Parents worry about their children’s future. Families who want to stay rooted in their ancestral land face barriers that make leaving seem like the only viable path.

That is how communities disappear. Not because they stop believing, but because the conditions required for them to flourish are steadily stripped away by the Israeli military occupation of their land.

The aspiration for Jewish safety is legitimate and deeply important – especially after centuries of anti-Semitism, culminating in the horrors of the Holocaust. No person of faith should ever be indifferent to the vulnerability of Jewish communities.

But affirming Jewish safety does not require silence when Palestinian Christian and Muslim families lose their land, face escalating violence, or see their future shrinking. Safety for one people cannot be built on the insecurity of another. There is no moral framework – Christian, Jewish, or secular – that asks us to choose between the dignity of one child and the dignity of another.

If anything, the deeply biblical truth is that justice is indivisible. When we diminish one community’s rights to protect another, both are ultimately harmed.
Click to expand...
www.aljazeera.com

The centuries-old Christian presence in the West Bank is under threat

The community I grew up in near Bethlehem is being squeezed out by Israeli settlers.
www.aljazeera.com www.aljazeera.com

https://twitter.com/x/status/1996778095895044435
 
Why should Jews be prohibited from living in the area of Bethlehem? Is there something inherently problematic with Jewish residence alongside Arabs? (Christian or otherwise)

Beit Sahur « See The Holy Land

www.seetheholyland.net www.seetheholyland.net

There are many communities worldwide whose 'centuries-old way of life' cannot be sustained in the 21st.

Bet Sahur is not under 'threat' -- unless you consider Jews living in the HolyLand an abomination and requiring violent reactions. Which many do.

The issue of Jewish communities across the defunct greenlines is one which has many implications and controversies. From Hebron, to the Temple Mount, to Ariel, to Alfe Menashe, to Maale Adumim.

Israeli government actions are ongoing to keep a lid on the friction.
www.jpost.com

PM calls to evacuate illegal outposts in West Bank | The Jerusalem Post

"These outposts have become forward positions from which raids are carried out on Palestinian villages," N12 quoted security officials as saying.
www.jpost.com www.jpost.com

I note with interest the increase of enlistment to the IDF by Christian Arabs.
www.jpost.com

Israel’s minorities are joining the IDF in growing numbers | The Jerusalem Post

Two years of war have seen a rise in military enlistment from Israel’s minority communities.
www.jpost.com www.jpost.com
 
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Pixel42 said:
Has there ever been a war in which there were no civilian casualties? The only one I could think of that might be a candidate was the Falklands War, but when I looked it up even that resulted in three civilian deaths.
Click to expand...
The Geneva Conventions hold that belligerents must not intentionally target civilians or civilian infrastructure and must minimise the impact to civilians.

Of course, we've seen another blatant breach of the Geneva Conventions by another nation recently, since they specifically and directly talk about shipwreck survivors, but that's for a different thread.
 
webfusion said:
Why should Jews be prohibited from living in the area of Bethlehem? Is there something inherently problematic with Jewish residence alongside Arabs? (Christian or otherwise

Beit Sahur « See The Holy Land

www.seetheholyland.net www.seetheholyland.net

There are many communities worldwide whose 'centuries-old way of life' cannot be sustained in the 21st.

Bet Sahur is not under 'threat' -- unless you consider Jews living in the HolyLand an abomination and requiring violent reactions. Which many do.

The issue of Jewish communities across the defunct greenlines is one which has many implications and controversies. From Hebron, to the Temple Mount, to Ariel, to Alfe Menashe, to Maale Adumim.

Israeli government actions are ongoing to keep a lid on the friction.
www.jpost.com

PM calls to evacuate illegal outposts in West Bank | The Jerusalem Post

"These outposts have become forward positions from which raids are carried out on Palestinian villages," N12 quoted security officials as saying.
www.jpost.com www.jpost.com

I note with interest the increase of enlistment to the IDF by Christian Arabs.
www.jpost.com

Israel’s minorities are joining the IDF in growing numbers | The Jerusalem Post

Two years of war have seen a rise in military enlistment from Israel’s minority communities.
www.jpost.com www.jpost.com
Click to expand...
I think they are what are called illegal immigrants since this is not part of Israel (if it was those Palestinians living there would also be Israeli citizens). They are squatters they have set up home on land that does not belong to them. They are criminals and terrorists who attack their neighbours set fir to their homes, kill their livestock, tear down their orchards. They are committing a war crime by displacing persons from their homes in an occupied territory.

Trump would have a dim view of Mexicans who crossed the US border, set up homes on other peoples land, attacked their neighbours, all on the basis that Texas is a historic part of Mexico.
 
The US border with Mexico is not disputed.
The 1949 Lines are disputed as being 'borders' at all.
 
Planigale said:
relevance?
Click to expand...
This - where a western academic (the western academy is a strong hold of the Western far-left - Ms. Conor is a supporter and has been a candidate for the Australian and Victorian Greens) tried to separate the civil servants of Gaza from Hama's militants. As with the Reich and Japan, Hamas wouldn't have been able to do what they did with educated civilians' skills and know-how. (" Hamas itself was also undifferentiated from a civil governing body running hospitals and its militants").

lizconor.substack.com

White Lies on Gaza

Netanyahu’s propaganda war
lizconor.substack.com lizconor.substack.com
 
Two stories, I want to juxtapose them here ---

#One: IDF recruits at the induction center, interviewed along with their parents and loved ones.
"We will protect our nation from enemies..."

#Two: HAMAS leader declares they will not rest until Israel is no more.
www.israelnationalnews.com

Hamas leader Mashaal vows Israel’s destruction, rejects Trump peace plan

Hamas leader Khaled Mashaal renews calls for Israel’s destruction, rejecting Trump’s peace plan and UN demands to disarm.
www.israelnationalnews.com www.israelnationalnews.com

The World's Western culture is in a moment of profound confusion, where moral relativism, ideological extremism, and the fear of being labeled “controversial” have many people retreating from their own principles. Israel, in this moment, exposes that crisis with painful clarity. If you cannot say which side stands for individual liberty and which side glorifies death and destruction, the issue isn’t Israel. The issue is you.

In previous posts, thePrestige made comments regarding the shifting of moral burden to Israel, while excusing HAMAS et al.
This opinion piece was published yesterday, and covers that exact point quite nicely:
www.israelnationalnews.com

The ’I don’t support Israel’ conversation needs to stop

The real problem isn’t Israel or Zionism. It’s whether Western civilization still matters. Opinion.
www.israelnationalnews.com www.israelnationalnews.com
 
Jewish presence in the HolyLand is being renewed and invigorated.
The best answer to Islamic maniac jihadists.

www.ynetnews.com

Smotrich launches 2.7B-shekel plan to reshape communities ‘beyond the Green Line’

In a dramatic move likely to shape a reality future governments will struggle to reverse, the finance minister is channeling unprecedented funds for new communities, roads, land registration and security; a key step is relocating three IDF bases to northern Samaria
www.ynetnews.com www.ynetnews.com
 
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