Cont: Electric Vehicles II

[acbytesla]

In my "fictional scenario", we will be driving the Nautilus, leaving Las Vegas around 0600. The only time my wife and I will stop for a sit down meal on the trip will be at exit 66 on Interstate 40, just east of Kingman, for Dunkin Donuts. While only 125 miles from home, it somehow gets the trip off to a good start.

From there we imagine heading south to Interstate 10 and driving to Pensacola to visit the National Naval Aviation Museum. Next is the Don Garlits Museum of Drag Racing in Ocala Florida (heaven for a piston head like me). Then Daytona for the races. We have been going to the Daytona 500 for more than a decade.

We will typically drive each day until 6:00 PM, after traveling over 800 miles.

On the fictional return trip we will divert to Myrtle Beach, SC, to visit a friend for a couple of days. We will then then drive home, about 2400 miles, in three days.

Several years ago I considered an EV but came to the conclusion that the US EV infrastructure was not adequate for the type of driving my wife and I prefer.

I have spent some time reconsidering an EV and, again, I just can't justify it.

In the summer of 2027, we are considering driving to Alaska. I am not convinced an EV could make the trip to Alaska in a safe and reasonable manner.

You have go by your own assessment. But I really don't think you will feel it to be terribly inconvenient if you pick something like a new Tesla, a Taycan, a Lucid and probably at least a half dozen other EVs sold in the US. But it is your money, your life and your decision.

 

[acbytesla]

I did. If the law does not state explicitly that the police can tolerate a certain amount over the limit at their discretion, then you can't assume that they will.

No, you can't. But I associate with dozens of police officers. They do in fact tolerate certain overages and other offenses. My best friend is a Seattle Police Officer and he hates to write tickets. Except he will write you up in a second for parking in a handicap spot if you're not.

 

[427 Cobra]

Not in the least.

“Those who would give up essential liberty, to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.” Benjamin Franklin

How sad that people so willingly accept, heck even ask for, a surveillance state.

But I shouldn't be surprised when I consider how willing people are to give up their civil rights, from free speech to gun ownership.

Except for paraphilias and abortion, are their any civil rights that people are willing to defend?

 

[arthwollipot]

“Those who would give up essential liberty, to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.” Benjamin Franklin

How sad that people so willingly accept, heck even ask for, a surveillance state.

But I shouldn't be surprised when I consider how willing people are to give up their civil rights, from free speech to gun ownership.

Except for paraphilias and abortion, are their any civil rights that people are willing to defend?

Oh, so we're back on this old saw now? Even including the Franklin quote. Again. How tiresome.

 

[acbytesla]

“Those who would give up essential liberty, to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.” Benjamin Franklin

How sad that people so willingly accept, heck even ask for, a surveillance state.

But I shouldn't be surprised when I consider how willing people are to give up their civil rights, from free speech to gun ownership.

Except for paraphilias and abortion, are their any civil rights that people are willing to defend?

Laws and taxes is the price we pay to live in a civilized society. Are there reasonable limits to freedom? Or is anarchy preferable? Sorry, I don't want you driving through my neighborhood at 60 or 70mph in a 4 to 7,000 pound vehicle. I don't want you carrying a machine gun or a flamethrower either. I don't want to feel I must always be armed to the gill.

I love you're car. I'm a bit of a muscle car officianado. I use to own a 69 Pontiac GTO with Ram Air and a 1987 Buick Grand National. But I also appreciate the safety of my children and the people around me.

 

[Rolfe]

I did. If the law does not state explicitly that the police can tolerate a certain amount over the limit at their discretion, then you can't assume that they will.

The words "at their discretion" say that, quite explicitly. The following anecdote about someone being nicked for doing 21 mph in a 20 mph zone rather backed that up. As did the observation that the police force involved stated that they did not use that "discretion".

I totally fail to see what point you think you're making, beyond the point I made myself.

 

[427 Cobra]

Laws and taxes is the price we pay to live in a civilized society. Are there reasonable limits to freedom? Or is anarchy preferable? Sorry, I don't want you driving through my neighborhood at 60 or 70mph in a 4 to 7,000 pound vehicle. I don't want you carrying a machine gun or a flamethrower either. I don't want to feel I must always be armed to the gill.

I love you're car. I'm a bit of a muscle car officianado. I use to own a 69 Pontiac GTO with Ram Air and a 1987 Buick Grand National. But I also appreciate the safety of my children and the people around me.

I am in violent agreement with everything you said.

However, there is a world of difference between judicious police enforcement of the laws, and a surveillance state that monitors you from the time you leave your home and sends fines for every infraction, no matter how minor, based on the cold, heartless, "logic" of a machine.

I once almost bought a 71 GTO. Unfortunately, life got in the way....

 

[arthwollipot]

However, there is a world of difference between judicious police enforcement of the laws, and a surveillance state that monitors you from the time you leave your home and sends fines for every infraction, no matter how minor, based on the cold, heartless, "logic" of a machine.

What you describe is not an accurate representation of reality.

 

[acbytesla]

I am in violent agreement with everything you said.

However, there is a world of difference between judicious police enforcement of the laws, and a surveillance state that monitors you from the time you leave your home and sends fines for every infraction, no matter how minor, based on the cold, heartless, "logic" of a machine.

I once almost bought a 71 GTO. Unfortunately, life got in the way....

It's a tricky balance. I give you that. I don't like the idea of receiving a ticket two weeks later for something minor and unremarkable.

I loved the Goat BTW. The Grand National was also one helluva a machine. I sold both of them for nice profits after driving them for a few years. The problem with cars like that is it is very easy to do something stupid with them.

 

[427 Cobra]

What you describe is not an accurate representation of reality.

Was Dabop incorrect or exaggerating when he said that on a 4-5 hour trip he went through three 'average speed' cameras, at least a dozen fixed speed cameras, and several dozen red light/speed/mobile phone use cameras?

How many traffic cameras would it take to reach your definition of "surveillance state"?

 

[427 Cobra]

I loved the Goat BTW. The Grand National was also one helluva a machine. I sold both of them for nice profits after driving them for a few years. The problem with cars like that is it is very easy to do something stupid with them.

My first car was a 69 Delta 88 Oldsmobile with a 455 Rocket - and it was. It is the only car I ever totaled....

The car I miss the most is my 2013 Cadillac CTS-V Coupe. Bright red, 556 hp, six speed stick. I should have never let it go.

 

[arthwollipot]

Was Dabop incorrect or exaggerating when he said that on a 4-5 hour trip he went through three 'average speed' cameras, at least a dozen fixed speed cameras, and several dozen red light/speed/mobile phone use cameras?

That sounds about right.

How many traffic cameras would it take to reach your definition of "surveillance state"?

I don't have a definition of "surveillance state" as I think it's an absurd construct invented by Americans to justify unsafe practices.

 

[acbytesla]

My first car was a 69 Delta 88 Oldsmobile with a 455 Rocket - and it was. It is the only car I ever totaled....

That's a huge Sedan. A trunk the size of my first apartment.

The car I miss the most is my 2013 Cadillac CTS-V Coupe. Bright red, 556 hp, six speed stick. I should have never let it go.

Fast car. But Cadillac was notorious for doing weird things that were one offs which made them expensive to maintain. And I have been personally maintaining my own cars since I was 16.

I miss the GTO. It was the third car I ever owned. A lot of personal nostalgia wrapped up in it.

 

[427 Cobra]

That's a huge Sedan. A trunk the size of my first apartment.

My Delta 88 was a two door in beautiful gold with a white vinyl top (shudder). But, would it go in a straight line. I suspect its acceleration was helped by weight savings from the heavily rusted fenders (at certain speeds she would whistle).

Couldn't turn worth a darn and the brakes were atrocious.

With better brakes I might not have totaled it.

 

[bruto]

Oh, so we're back on this old saw now? Even including the Franklin quote. Again. How tiresome.

No doubt it's good quote at times, but I don't think this is one of them. Public highways are not our individual property, and the rules governing their use have little to do with essential liberty.

 

[bruto]

That's with the old mechanical speedos- at best their accuracy was rather dubious (they were allowed +10% from new here- after 40 years anyone's guess how accurate they are lol)- but many modern speedos are 'dead on'- some even cross check from the onboard GPS to the speedo to check for other factors that affect accuracy (tyre wear and inflation levels can make a noticeable difference to the speedo reading- and thats even assuming they are the same roiling diameter as the factory originals (not always a safe bet...)

If your car is newer than 2000- its not always a safe bet you CAN 'add on a few'- best bet rather than relying on 'mile markers' (which may not reflect actual SPEED errors at all) is check your speedo against a GPS (phone or inbuilt...)

The speedo can read incorrect speed even if the odometer is showing the correct 'mileage turnovers' on it- if the speedo's spring or magnet is weak due to age in a mechanical speedo, it can be out by a considerable margin even if the odometer is showing 'spot on' by mile marker testing...

Agreed (fast moving thread,see post 1286)...

 

[acbytesla]

My Delta 88 was a two door in beautiful gold with a white vinyl top (shudder). But, would it go in a straight line. I suspect its acceleration was helped by weight savings from the heavily rusted fenders (at certain speeds she would whistle).

Couldn't turn worth a darn and the brakes were atrocious.

With better brakes I might not have totaled it.

It was the Coupe version huh? My father traded his 1968 Olds 98 Luxury Sedan in for a 1972 Delta 88 sedan. Which while still a very big car, it was considerably smaller than the 98.

 

[427 Cobra]

No doubt it's good quote at times, but I don't think this is one of them. Public highways are not our individual property, and the rules governing their use have little to do with essential liberty.

I was not commenting on road laws.

I was commenting on using massive quantities of electronic surveillance to document your compliance with every rule of the road.

If you had a police car follow you every time you went out, then mailed you a ticket for any perceived infractions, you would consider this to be harassment and an abuse of power.

When it happens electronically, you are good with it.

I just don't understand.

 

[arthwollipot]

I just don't understand.

That's because you're not describing it accurately.

 

[acbytesla]

That's because you're not describing it accurately.

No Art, I think he is describing it very accurately.

 

[Dabop]

Was Dabop incorrect or exaggerating when he said that on a 4-5 hour trip he went through three 'average speed' cameras, at least a dozen fixed speed cameras, and several dozen red light/speed/mobile phone use cameras?

How many traffic cameras would it take to reach your definition of "surveillance state"?

And because NOBODY speeds (well hardly anyone lol) I received exactly ...

ZERO....

tickets....

My mum drove up to my sisters place (about 700km trip, multiple speed cameras (instant and average) plus at least a couple of dozen redlight/speed/phone cameras and - no tickets....)

Its almost like it makes people OBEY THE BLOODY LAWS!!!!!!!

(a strange concept for some people I know- but it works and we LIKE living in a safe society where idiots doing the wrong thing rapidly get removed from the road....)

We 'used' to be like the yanks- no speed cameras, no redlight cameras, no RBTs- and our road toll was (like the US) massive- until the public demanded action take place- and it did...

A strange concept for the yanks- it isn't some 'tyrannical government plot'- it is THE PUBLIC driving these laws lol

 

[acbytesla]

And because NOBODY speeds (well hardly anyone lol) I received exactly ...

ZERO....

tickets....

My mum drove up to my sisters place (about 700km trip, multiple speed cameras (instant and average) plus at least a couple of dozen redlight/speed/phone cameras and - no tickets....)

Its almost like it makes people OBEY THE BLOODY LAWS!!!!!!!

(a strange concept for some people I know- but it works and we LIKE living in a safe society where idiots doing the wrong thing rapidly get removed from the road....)

We 'used' to be like the yanks- no speed cameras, no redlight cameras, no RBTs- and our road toll was (like the US) massive- until the public demanded action take place- and it did...

A strange concept for the yanks- it isn't some 'tyrannical government plot'- it is THE PUBLIC driving these laws lol

Anecdotes don't constitute evidence. Are you suggesting they don't issue thousands, even hundreds of thousands of tickets?

 

[arthwollipot]

No Art, I think he is describing it very accurately.

No, he isn't. He's not the one driving in this country, I am. I know what I'm talking about. Driving past the occasional fixed speed camera is very much not analogous to having a police car follow you about constantly documenting everything you're doing.

 

[arthwollipot]

My mum drove up to my sisters place (about 700km trip, multiple speed cameras (instant and average) plus at least a couple of dozen redlight/speed/phone cameras and - no tickets....)

This is 700km. In Freedom Units that's 435 miles, if that makes it easier for you to visualise. This is hardly the density of surveillance that is being implied.

 

[Dabop]

Anecdotes don't constitute evidence. Are you suggesting they don't issue thousands, even hundreds of thousands of tickets?

I have clocked up millions of logbook recorded hours (driving a truck, every minute has to be accounted for in your logbook) and I haven't received a ticket (of any description) since the 1990's....

And thats WITH this 'tyrannical' level of surveillance lol

(looks around furtively- pssst wanna know my secret???)

I obey the road rules....

And the road toll is (despite a massive increase in the number of people driving on the roads since I first got my licence) actually LESS than what it was then!!!!

Mind you last year was the worst in more than a decade- with 1300 dead in all of Australia (which is actually less than HALF the number that died the year I got my licence (3508), despite the huge population increase.. (from 14.5 million to 28.2 million...)

So the death toll on our roads has plummeted....

Sure safer cars helped, but so does drivers actually- you know- driving safely.....

 

[acbytesla]

No, he isn't. He's not the one driving in this country, I am. I know what I'm talking about. Driving past the occasional fixed speed camera is very much not analogous to having a police car follow you about constantly documenting everything you're doing.

We disagree.

 

[arthwollipot]

We disagree.

How is it even remotely analogous? I am not being watched constantly while driving.

 

[Pixel42]

If you had a police car follow you every time you went out, then mailed you a ticket for any perceived infractions, you would consider this to be harassment and an abuse of power.

I would consider it a ridiculous waste of money and resources, as there are much cheaper ways of encouraging motorists to drive safely and sensibly.

I have received two speeding tickets in over 40 years of driving. I deserved both of them.

 

[427 Cobra]

I could not find a decent graph of Australian deaths per 100 million kilometers. The best I could find is deaths per 10,000 registered vehicles, Figure F2 of: Road deaths in Australia 1925–2008

As you claim that the Australian surveillance system has greatly reduced traffic deaths, please point to me on Figure F2 the year that the cameras were installed. As you are claiming great results, it should be relatively simple to identify the deflection point on the graph.

Per Table 6 of Road Safety International Comparisons–2023:

• The US fatality rate per 100 million vehicle kilometers is 0.8
• The Australian fatality rate per 100 million vehicle kilometers is 0.5.

Really, not as different as some have claimed.

From the same table, Australia lags far behind the Scandinavian countries. I wonder why?

I also can't help but wonder why the total number of deaths on Australian roads has increased over the last several years.

I thought this article was quite interesting: Australian road toll hits five-year high: Why speed cameras aren’t saving lives

"Most road deaths occur in regional areas or the open road, most speed cameras and speed enforcement is done in metropolitan areas where governments can rake in the most money," said one high-ranking highway patrol officer, speaking on condition of anonymity.

"The 'speeding under 10km/h over the limit is dangerous' message is also a lie. What the government is neglecting to tell the public is that people who are killed at these modest speeds had a crash for other reasons: because they were drunk, drug affected, banned from driving, or had an unsafe or unregistered car. That group (is) by far the biggest menace on the roads. Not mums and dads going to work every day.

"Until the government is prepared to properly address road safety, speed cameras will keep clicking and the road toll will keep rising."

 

[arthwollipot]

Really, not as different as some have claimed.

It's a difference of 30 million. That is, contrary to your suggestion, a big difference.

 

[Dabop]

I could not find a decent graph of Australian deaths per 100 million kilometers. The best I could find is deaths per 10,000 registered vehicles, Figure F2 of: Road deaths in Australia 1925–2008

As you claim that the Australian surveillance system has greatly reduced traffic deaths, please point to me on Figure F2 the year that the cameras were installed. As you are claiming great results, it should be relatively simple to identify the deflection point on the graph.

Per Table 6 of Road Safety International Comparisons–2023:

• The US fatality rate per 100 million vehicle kilometers is 0.8
• The Australian fatality rate per 100 million vehicle kilometers is 0.5.

Really, not as different as some have claimed.

From the same table, Australia lags far behind the Scandinavian countries. I wonder why?

I also can't help but wonder why the total number of deaths on Australian roads has increased over the last several years.

I thought this article was quite interesting: Australian road toll hits five-year high: Why speed cameras aren’t saving lives

"Most road deaths occur in regional areas or the open road, most speed cameras and speed enforcement is done in metropolitan areas where governments can rake in the most money," said one high-ranking highway patrol officer, speaking on condition of anonymity.

"The 'speeding under 10km/h over the limit is dangerous' message is also a lie. What the government is neglecting to tell the public is that people who are killed at these modest speeds had a crash for other reasons: because they were drunk, drug affected, banned from driving, or had an unsafe or unregistered car. That group (is) by far the biggest menace on the roads. Not mums and dads going to work every day.

"Until the government is prepared to properly address road safety, speed cameras will keep clicking and the road toll will keep rising."

1975	3,694	26.6	59
1976	3,583	25.5	54	35.5
1977	3,578	25.2	52
1978	3,705	25.8	52
1979	3,508	24.2	48	31.5
1980	3,272	22.3	43
1981	3,321	22.3	42
1982	3,252	21.4[3]	39	25.6
1983	2,755	17.9	32		[3]
1984	2,822	18.1	32		[3]
1985	2,941	18.63	32.3	20.9
1986	2,888	18.0	31		[3]
1987	2,772	17.0	30		[3]
1988	2,887	17.5	30	18.8	[3]
1989	2,801	16.7	29		[3]
1990	2,331	13.66	23.1
1991	2,113	12.2	21	14.1	[3]
1992	1,974	11.28	19
1993	1,953	11.05	19
1994	1,928	10.80	18.0
1995	2,017	11.16	18.4	12.1
1996	1,970	10.76	17.3
1997	1,767	9.54	15.1
1998	1,755	9.38	14.5	10.5
1999	1,764	9.32	14.4
2000	1,817	9.49	14.6	9.8
2001	1,737	8.95	13.9	9.1
2002	1,715	8.73	13.4	8.9
2003	1,621	8.15	12.3	8.0
2004	1,583	7.86	11.7	8.0
2005	1,627	7.98	11.7	7.9
2006	1,598	7.72	11.2	7.7
2007	1,603	7.62	10.8	7.4
2008	1,437	6.68	9	6.5	[3][4]
2009	1,491	6.78, or 6.86[5]	10	6.7	[3]
2010	1,353	6.06, or 6.14[5]	8.4	6.1	[2][3][6]
2011	1,277	5.71, or 5.72[5]	5.5	5.5	[3][7]
2012	1,300	5.78, or 5.73[5]	5.4	5.5	[7][8]
2013	1,187	5.16	4.6	5.0	[5][7]
2014	1,150	4.91	4.5	4.8	[7][9]
2015	1,209	5.08		5.0	[10]
2016	1,293	5.34		5.0	[10]
2017	1,225	4.98		5.0	[10]
2018	1,135	4.60		4.0	[10]
2019	1,194	4.3			[11]
2020	1,095	4.3		4.4	[12]
2021	1,123	4.4			[13]
2022	1,194	4.6			[14]
2023	1,266	4.8			[15]
2024	1,300	4.8

Thats the road toll figures from 1975 until 2025...

Since then, we have had RBT introduced, speed cameras, as well as radar then laser speed checking (mobile and fixed) have seen a MAJOR drop in deaths on Australia's roads, despite a huge increase in the number of registered vehicles on the road (about 7.5 million vehicles in 1975, up to around 22 million in 2025, the number of fatal crashes resulting in deaths has actually halved....

Had the numbers remained constant ie zero improvement then with a 3 fold rise in registered vehicles, then you would expect a 3 fold rise in deaths (so from 3600 in 75, you would extrapolate that to close to 11000 deaths annually- and we are still bitching because its still considered high at 1300!!!!!!

 

[Dabop]

Ironically, that list shows what I have been saying, that since covid, the number of dickheads on the roads has been steadily rising (speeders, red light runners etc are definitely on the rise and need to be curbed) and lo and behold- the number of deaths in the last few years has also spiked noticeably....

 

[zooterkin]

A reminder, this thread is about electric vehicles, not speed limits, civil rights or surveillance states.

Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: zooterkin

 

[steenkh]

By the way, are you able to pre-heat your battery half an hour before arriving at a charger? If you can, try that.

Thanks for the tip. I found a video by another Scenic owner about this. Like me, he only charges at 50-60 kw when not pre-heating, but he charges at 132 kw when pre-heating.

The snag is that Renault has chosen to make pre-heating invisible. It isn't even mentioned in the manuals. There is no way of knowing if it is on or off. The system switches pre-heating on if you select a charging station in the built-in navigation system, which is Google Maps. If this charging station is an intermediate destination, and not a final destination, the car will invisibly switch on pre-heating.

I don't use Google Maps, I use a navigation system called Sygic that works from my telephone over Apple CarPlay. This means that I need to use the inferior Google Maps if I want pre-heating.

That is, of course, if this is not something that the video guy has in his car that I don't. He claims that his is just a standard Scenic, but during the video he demonstrates loads of stuff that isn't installed in my standard Scenic.

 

[Rolfe]

It's a mystery to me too!

 

[malbui]

I’m preparing for the 1,000km-ish drive back to Geneva tomorrow and as usual the range of my bladder is more of a preoccupation than the range of my TM3

 

[acbytesla]

I’m preparing for the 1,000km-ish drive back to Geneva tomorrow and as usual the range of my bladder is more of a preoccupation than the range of my TM3

Yeah, my prostate would definitely be the determining factor in where I would stop.

I absolutely believe that 10, even 5 years ago, Cobra's concern about his trip from Texas to Daytona, Florida might have been "materially inconvenienced by charging stops. But not today.

 

[malbui]

I’m preparing for the 1,000km-ish drive back to Geneva tomorrow and as usual the range of my bladder is more of a preoccupation than the range of my TM3

Further to my previous posting, I had no range or bladder comfort issues on my trip home yesterday. I did, however, spend nine hours at the Shuttle terminal in Cheriton and finally get onboard a crossing seven and a quarter hours after my expected departure time, thanks to the massive power outage that caused chaos on international services. My plans to do most of the drive in daylight did not come to fruition.

 

[Rolfe]

This is quite impressive.

https://twitter.com/x/status/2006255297212358686

 

[427 Cobra]

Wrong post.