Electric Vehicles

[novaphile]

$50K is insane to me. I grant you that EVs are becoming more affordable, but I don't think we are quite there yet. We need them to be cheap enough that the decision for 80 percent will conclude it's a no brainer.

As the batteries get cheaper, the migration to EVs and home solar panels will be so disruptive to turn the economy on its ear. That day is coming. And this terrifies the fossil fuel industry.

This may be happening around you, without you realising.

Around here, people who wouldn't have considered riding a bicycle to work, are now commuting with e-bikes and e-scooters.

Those things are probably the cheapest 'vehicles' that can be bought (barring actual bicycles).

Back in early 2020, before we were all sent home, there were already several people in my office, who parked their scooters under their desks.

I'm seeing more and more people riding those things on the road now.

 

[acbytesla]

This may be happening around you, without you realising.

Around here, people who wouldn't have considered riding a bicycle to work, are now commuting with e-bikes and e-scooters.

Those things are probably the cheapest 'vehicles' that can be bought (barring actual bicycles).

Back in early 2020, before we were all sent home, there were already several people in my office, who parked their scooters under their desks.

I'm seeing more and more people riding those things on the road now.

I grant you the pace of this phenomenon is accelerating. E-bikes have proved more disruptive to the fossil fuels market than electric cars. More than one million barrels of oil daily are not being burned because of E-bikes.

What I don't like about the EV market is that it isn't really competitive yet. There is Tesla and everyone else. And while I think Musk is a brilliant man, I also think he's nuts and he is dangerous. I despise the idea of giving that man any more wealth and power.

 

[Roger Ramjets]

$50K is insane to me. I grant you that EVs are becoming more affordable, but I don't think we are quite there yet. We need them to be cheap enough that the decision for 80 percent will conclude it's a no brainer.

Don't worry, it's coming. There are now several popular EVs for sale in New Zealand for less than US$30k.

The new Nissan Leaf is only 63% of the price the original Leaf was in 2011 in real dollars, while having almost double the driving range and a much lower battery degradation rate. It's literally more than twice the car for the money.

The MG ZS Excite is the same price as the Leaf but with 15% more driving range. The MG 4 Excite is expected to be only a little more expensive, but with 70% more range (450 km).

As the batteries get cheaper, the migration to EVs and home solar panels will be so disruptive to turn the economy on its ear. That day is coming. And this terrifies the fossil fuel industry.

Yes. It doesn't take much to be disruptive. As one market rises the other declines, and nobody wants to be in the declining market. Even if EVs only reduce fossil fuel demand by a few percent the oil companies will be panicking. To make matters worse (for them) other markets are also being threatened by efforts to get off fossil fuels.

Gas stations in some countries are now putting in EV chargers because they can see the future, and those chargers make money without any of the hassles involved with petrol and diesel. As a bonus the longer time needed to charge means customers are more likely to buy other stuff. So the gas stations won't lose money - but oil companies will.

 

[crescent]

$50K is insane to me.

Over time we'll get a better idea of battery degradation. One still hears stories of the need to replace batteries at X number of miles (they usually claim around 100k or 150k miles or so). But those claims seem to be mostly false, especially for newer EVs the batteries are likely to be much more durable.

Which makes the whole car much more durable, which in turn increases the resale value. So a $50k car seems a lot more affordable if it last much longer or has twice the resale value of a comparatively priced ICE.

For now the battery longevity discussion has been skewed by early generations of Leafs, which had just about the worst battery longevity on the American market. Teslas and Chevy Bolts and other brands that maintain battery temperature better are proving to last much longer.

It also doesn't help that some of the major brands are trying to just do a carbon copy of Tesla's start up with cool expensive cars. The tech just isn't enough of a novelty any more. Give me a car to commute and get groceries and go visit my parents at a decent price and I'm happy.

 

[acbytesla]

Don't worry, it's coming. There are now several popular EVs for sale in New Zealand for less than US$30k.

The new Nissan Leaf is only 63% of the price the original Leaf was in 2011 in real dollars, while having almost double the driving range and a much lower battery degradation rate. It's literally more than twice the car for the money.

The MG ZS Excite is the same price as the Leaf but with 15% more driving range. The MG 4 Excite is expected to be only a little more expensive, but with 70% more range (450 km).

Yes. It doesn't take much to be disruptive. As one market rises the other declines, and nobody wants to be in the declining market. Even if EVs only reduce fossil fuel demand by a few percent the oil companies will be panicking. To make matters worse (for them) other markets are also being threatened by efforts to get off fossil fuels.

Gas stations in some countries are now putting in EV chargers because they can see the future, and those chargers make money without any of the hassles involved with petrol and diesel. As a bonus the longer time needed to charge means customers are more likely to buy other stuff. So the gas stations won't lose money - but oil companies will.

I agree entirely. I live in red neck heaven. Big diesel trucks are all the craze around here.
I hear them constantly bad mouthing EVs and Solar. And I constantly ask them why? Why do they care if their vehicle is powered by watts instead of gas or diesel.

The more we can cut fossil fuel demands, the greater the pressure will be to keep fuel prices low. The big investors are terrified. Solar and electric vehicles of one type or another is going to totally disrupt the energy markets. This is what is behind by new laws against home solar.

Solar panels are cheap. As the batteries get cheaper, there will be a flood of people going off grid.

 

[lobosrul5]

Don't worry, it's coming. There are now several popular EVs for sale in New Zealand for less than US$30k.

The new Nissan Leaf is only 63% of the price the original Leaf was in 2011 in real dollars, while having almost double the driving range and a much lower battery degradation rate. It's literally more than twice the car for the money.

The MG ZS Excite is the same price as the Leaf but with 15% more driving range. The MG 4 Excite is expected to be only a little more expensive, but with 70% more range (450 km).

Yes. It doesn't take much to be disruptive. As one market rises the other declines, and nobody wants to be in the declining market. Even if EVs only reduce fossil fuel demand by a few percent the oil companies will be panicking. To make matters worse (for them) other markets are also being threatened by efforts to get off fossil fuels.

Gas stations in some countries are now putting in EV chargers because they can see the future, and those chargers make money without any of the hassles involved with petrol and diesel. As a bonus the longer time needed to charge means customers are more likely to buy other stuff. So the gas stations won't lose money - but oil companies will.

Again, comparing like to like, the Nissan Leaf is not great value. I see one for sale for just under 30k in my county... or I could get a Nissan Versa, same dealership for 18k, or a Nissan Kicks, a bigger vehicle, for 22k. As a Versa gets 35mpg (blended) the amount of miles I'd need to do to come out ahead versus a Leaf would be.... a whole frickin lot with gasoline being about $2.60 here.

 

[GlennB]

Interesting article in The Guardian about the experiences of EV drivers in the current freeze in the US - reduced range, the wait for the battery to 'warm up' at charging stations (for novice EV drivers, it seems ) etc

The Guardian

 

[GlennB]

deleted dupe

 

[bruto]

Just to note that if I read it right, the current Nissan Leaf has way more than twice the range of the first generation. It's more like 3 times, and not too far from four.

It's getting closer to being realistic even here in the frozen northland. I don't think I'd ever want to be all electric, owing to the need to go on longer trips at times, as well as driving in subzero snowy weather, but as an eventual replacement for my little local runabout, it gets closer to making sense.

My terrain is not ideal for solar power, and my current electrical service is only 100 amps, but it's still possible, and I've considered putting a solar panel or two in one of the fields, if there's not too much wiring loss. If I set up a solar unit simply to charge a car, and feed the excess back to the grid, the first cost would be pretty high, but the running cost crazily low.

 

[novaphile]

Just to note that if I read it right, the current Nissan Leaf has way more than twice the range of the first generation. It's more like 3 times, and not too far from four.

It's getting closer to being realistic even here in the frozen northland. I don't think I'd ever want to be all electric, owing to the need to go on longer trips at times, as well as driving in subzero snowy weather, but as an eventual replacement for my little local runabout, it gets closer to making sense.

My terrain is not ideal for solar power, and my current electrical service is only 100 amps, but it's still possible, and I've considered putting a solar panel or two in one of the fields, if there's not too much wiring loss. If I set up a solar unit simply to charge a car, and feed the excess back to the grid, the first cost would be pretty high, but the running cost crazily low.

I don't think you'll be happy with the maths.

My car typically takes 10 kWh to charge.
I have 8 188W solar panels, which generate, on average, about 5 kWh per day.

Hence, it would take at least two full days to charge my car.

Note that a 10kWh battery is tiny compared to modern all electric vehicles.
Two full days of solar panel output gives me 45 km of range.

The current Nissan Leaf has a 40 kWh battery, hence eight days to charge from my current eight panels.

I think you can currently buy 300 W solar panels but you'd still need a lot more than one to charge an EV.

Ideally, you'd put something up like a hay shed (or carport) with a sloping roof to maximise your solar collection. I was lucky, my roof slope is within a degree of ideal for this latitude.

 

[zooterkin]

So can I. But the camera, anyways, has been mandatory per Federal law since 2018. So now that there has to be a screen there, it may as well function as a touch screen.

What I would actually really like is a really simple city EV car that will get 50 miles of range even if its 0 Fahrenheit, and I want it cheap, like 20k. And then when I want to go on a road trip I'll rent a car if needed*. But no one markets such in the USA for some reason.

*I did so recently for a road trip after factoring it will be cheaper than putting miles on my own car due to expected maintenance and depreciation

I don't know about 0 F, but the 3-year-old VW we recently bought does well over 100 miles in the current -6C weather, and cost around £10k.

 

[Blue Mountain]

It's getting closer to being realistic even here in the frozen northland. I don't think I'd ever want to be all electric, owing to the need to go on longer trips at times, as well as driving in subzero snowy weather, but as an eventual replacement for my little local runabout, it gets closer to making sense.

Dude, you're not in the frozen northland. Try Whitehorse, Yellowknife, Iqaluit, Edmonton, Calgary, Saskatoon, Regina, Winnipeg, or Thompson.

 

[Lplus]

Dude, you're not in the frozen northland. Try Whitehorse, Yellowknife, Iqaluit, Edmonton, Calgary, Saskatoon, Regina, Winnipeg, or Thompson.

Ahh, come on, even they must have a couple of months when a little electric runabout might make sense...

Pity about the rest of the year though.

 

[acbytesla]

I don't think you'll be happy with the maths.

My car typically takes 10 kWh to charge.
I have 8 188W solar panels, which generate, on average, about 5 kWh per day.

Hence, it would take at least two full days to charge my car.

Note that a 10kWh battery is tiny compared to modern all electric vehicles.
Two full days of solar panel output gives me 45 km of range.

The current Nissan Leaf has a 40 kWh battery, hence eight days to charge from my current eight panels.

I think you can currently buy 300 W solar panels but you'd still need a lot more than one to charge an EV.


Ideally, you'd put something up like a hay shed (or carport) with a sloping roof to maximise your solar collection. I was lucky, my roof slope is within a degree of ideal for this latitude.

I recently purchased for a friend 24ea 430w panels at $175ea at SanTan Solar. They have great deals there all the time. They sell new and used panels. Right now you can buy a pallet of 25 435w Sun Power panels for $3,000.

Having a shed can be convenient, but you can also build a rack. that's what my friend did. Actually he built three all out of lumber from trees he cut down from his property. We even build a tilting mechanism so he could change the tilt angle a few times a year.

 

[bruto]

I don't think you'll be happy with the maths.

My car typically takes 10 kWh to charge.
I have 8 188W solar panels, which generate, on average, about 5 kWh per day.

Hence, it would take at least two full days to charge my car.

Note that a 10kWh battery is tiny compared to modern all electric vehicles.
Two full days of solar panel output gives me 45 km of range.

The current Nissan Leaf has a 40 kWh battery, hence eight days to charge from my current eight panels.

I think you can currently buy 300 W solar panels but you'd still need a lot more than one to charge an EV.

Ideally, you'd put something up like a hay shed (or carport) with a sloping roof to maximise your solar collection. I was lucky, my roof slope is within a degree of ideal for this latitude.

Yes, that's part of the problem. Around here plenty of people are putting up pretty substantial solar collectors, but my buildings are unsuited for that (old house with slate roof, outbuildings all point the wrong way, etc.), most of the land on a north-facing slope, so I'd have to put something up in a field, and the whole thing would be expensive. Charging stations have arrived in the region, including towns where I shop, so that helps. But so far, the whole thing has not been either economical or urgent enough to warrant the cost, given that at least for a while still I have a dirt-cheap little car that gets good gas mileage.

It's interesting to speculate, though.

 

[8enotto]

If my yt feed has anything to say the conversion kits for existing vehicles is becoming a lucrative market. That's good news for those who desire the old Camry, a hybred/electric and be free of limitations like Tesla imposes.
It seems even Chevrolet is on this now.

Progress in even grassroots efforts is making the EV revolution happen.

Last week in the body shop we had a hybred Camry and Prius parked side by side, a year ago that wouldn't have happened. I am liking the new look.

 

[8enotto]

If my yt feed has anything to say the conversion kits for existing vehicles is becoming a lucrative market. That's good news for those who desire the old Camry, a hybred/electric and be free of limitations like Tesla imposes.
It seems even Chevrolet is on this now.

Progress in even grassroots efforts is making the EV revolution happen.

Last week in the body shop we had a hybred Camry and Prius parked side by side, a year ago that wouldn't have happened. I am liking the new look.

 

[Lplus]

If my yt feed has anything to say the conversion kits for existing vehicles is becoming a lucrative market. That's good news for those who desire the old Camry, a hybred/electric and be free of limitations like Tesla imposes.
It seems even Chevrolet is on this now.

Progress in even grassroots efforts is making the EV revolution happen.

Last week in the body shop we had a hybred Camry and Prius parked side by side, a year ago that wouldn't have happened. I am liking the new look.

They're available in the UK for classic cars, but the cost is pretty darn steep and quite honestly I reckon they eviscerate the cars involved. If we're going to have electric cars I'd rather have the likes of the vw electric bus. It makes no bones about being sporty but provides sensible transport for those who want it - just like the original.

 

[8enotto]

When a classic is beyond a certain stage of restoration there is no shame in making it a fun driveable car.

The farms of the US are awash with "classic" cars stripped of engines and such, rotting out slowly, that could be made safe daily drivers again.
Purists may find a rare options version that could be worth millions if the original engine and whatever could be found. Until then it's still a junk old car.

Have some fun with your dream car and get the benefits of a modern drivetrain. For many it's close enough and avoids the costs of driving a gallons per mile car.

 

[Agatha]

The thread continues here.

Posted By: Agatha