Electric Vehicles

[The Don]

I rent an apartment in a 350-apartment complex in Arizona. Each apartment is assigned one covered parking space, none of which have electric power available, and none of which is within 30 feet (9 meters) of a building. There are other non-covered, non-assigned spaces.

At an average of 1.5 cars per apartment, which I think is a perfectly reasonable assumption, 525 cars use this parking. I can't imagine how or why the apartment-complex management would install charging spaces for even half the covered parking spaces, let alone for the others.

If there's money to be made from it and/or positive publicity to be gained then I can see why. If not the apartment complex managers, then maybe a company which specialised in that kind of thing.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

If there's money to be made from it and/or positive publicity to be gained then I can see why. If not the apartment complex managers, then maybe a company which specialised in that kind of thing.

Alternatively, installing such things could be mandated by the relevant local authority.

 

[Fast Eddie B]

For those who might be curious, this is what an RV pedestal typically provides:

The 50A/240V RV receptacle on the left does provide both neutral and ground, but I configured my adapter to just use the ground and the two hots. The center receptacle is a 30A/120V receptacle that our travel trailer is currently plugged into. Bigger trailers and RV’s can use 240V for dryers and the like and need that 50A/240V power to do so.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

For those who might be curious, this is what an RV pedestal typically provides:

[qimg]https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51264230336_f852ca152f_z.jpg[/qimg]

The 50A RV receptacle on the left does provide both neutral and ground, but I configured my adapter to just use the ground and the two hots. The center receptacle is a 30A/120V receptacle that our travel trailer is currently plugged into. Bigger trailers and RV’s can use 240V for dryers and the like and need that 50A/240V power to do so.

I wonder if EV camping is something that campgrounds are seeing more of. Sounds like a nice way to see some of the rural parts of the country, hopping from campground to campground to charge up at a RV pedestal. These campgrounds are already in place around all the popular natural parks and sightseeing areas, so the infrastructure already exists for EV scenic trips.

 

[dirtywick]

From what I understand, the standard voltage in North America used to be 100V, but it was eventually changed to 110v (in order to make light bulbs brighter). It was later increased to 120v.

The reason people still refer to it as 110v is a combination of:

- The historical (i.e. it was once called 110 so it got stuck in some people's memories)

- It somehow "sounds" better

- The actual voltage can vary, but it is often somewhere between 110 and 120. So if the actual voltage is 115v, then 110 is just as 'right' as 120. (Technically it can go higher than 120, but I think being lower is more common.)

The term is nominal voltage. It's typically lower than 120V because of power loss due to wire resistance and other inefficiencies in the circuit, anything more than 5% is unacceptable. LEDs and other solid state devices don't really like voltages that are much different than their ratings.

A higher voltage would be pretty unusual though. I've seen it before in equipment that uses a 2:1 transformer to turn a leg of 3 phase into 120V, but I don't think you'd see something like that too often coming off a utility.

 

[dirtywick]

And yes, I knew that we had 220/240 volts available to the home (with the higher voltage dedicated to things like clothes dryers, AC, and the remaining outlets knocked down to 110/120.) However, I am just not sure how difficult it would be to adjust a garage outlet (especially one far from the circuit breaker, as in my home) to deliver 220/240 if it wasn't designed for that from the start.

To me it more depends on whether or not your basement is finished, but even then it's not a very difficult job in my opinion. Converting it over is impossible though, you're running a new circuit. It's just getting the wire into the garage.

 

[bonzombiekitty]

If there's money to be made from it and/or positive publicity to be gained then I can see why. If not the apartment complex managers, then maybe a company which specialised in that kind of thing.

A company that installs a couple chargers, pays property management a small fee to install there. Residents/visitors pay charging company directly. Install additional chargers under that scheme as needed.

Eventually it may make sense for management to install their own chargers. There has to be a means of metering the usage to charge the correct person.

 

[dirtywick]

Also I would imagine as EVs gain popularity a landlord might install some to attract tenants.

 

[bonzombiekitty]

Also I would imagine as EVs gain popularity a landlord might install some to attract tenants.

Yes, but IMO, we're gonna mostly start off with management of large complexes with parking lots getting a nominal fee from charging companies to install a few chargers.

Then there will be some cross over of some landlords doing it on their own. Then there will be enough steam behind it all for there to be the political will to change laws such that new/renovated parking lots will need to be able to deliver charging for a certain amount of parking spots.

 

[Segnosaur]

And yes, I knew that we had 220/240 volts available to the home (with the higher voltage dedicated to things like clothes dryers, AC, and the remaining outlets knocked down to 110/120.) However, I am just not sure how difficult it would be to adjust a garage outlet (especially one far from the circuit breaker, as in my home) to deliver 220/240 if it wasn't designed for that from the start.

To me it more depends on whether or not your basement is finished, but even then it's not a very difficult job in my opinion. Converting it over is impossible though, you're running a new circuit. It's just getting the wire into the garage.

It may not sound difficult, but its certainly outside the ability of your average (non-electrician) homeowner. Which means added expense. Plus, you're at the mercy of whomever you hire to run the wires, and I've dealt with a few "lets just punch a hole and run the cable through the wall" contractors to know that they don't always worry about esthetics.

Getting a 220/240v outlet or circuit wired in from the beginning means that 1) it will definitely be available, for no added expense for those purchasing electric cars, and 2) it will be done 'right' (i.e. esthetically normal, all circuits properly rated, etc.)

Granted, it does mean added house costs for those who may not have an electric vehicle, but as EVs replace gas powered vehicles, that will apply to fewer and fewer people.

 

[Fast Eddie B]

To me it more depends on whether or not your basement is finished, but even then it's not a very difficult job in my opinion. Converting it over is impossible though, you're running a new circuit. It's just getting the wire into the garage.

Well, it might be possible to convert an existing box to a 240V receptacle, especially if the wires are run in conduit. You just need room in the conduit to pull 4 wires of adequate gauge, room in your panel for a double breaker and the appropriate receptacle.

As an aside, the picture I posted above of the RV panel was one we had installed on an outside wall of an elderly cousin who is in at home hospice. It was so we could park our trailer there and have power and air conditioning. Complicating matters was she won’t let anyone into the part of her house where her main panel is, so part of the install - a breakout box with its own breaker and maybe 10’ of conduit to the RV panel - had to be done “hot”. In any case, I estimated the job would run between $600 and $800 dollars. Total was $1,950, and that was with me buying the RV panel! But others I’ve related this to said the price was about right with the cost of wire and such.

I’ve also heard if you want 240v @ 50A in your garage, it’s best to tell the electrician it’s for a welder - electricians just assume EV owners have the wherewithal to pay more and charge accordingly.

 

[dirtywick]

Well, it might be possible to convert an existing box to a 240V receptacle, especially if the wires are run in conduit. You just need room in the conduit to pull 4 wires of adequate gauge, room in your panel for a double breaker and the appropriate receptacle.

As an aside, the picture I posted above of the RV panel was one we had installed on an outside wall of an elderly cousin who is in at home hospice. It was so we could park our trailer there and have power and air conditioning. Complicating matters was she won’t let anyone into the part of her house where her main panel is, so part of the install - a breakout box with its own breaker and maybe 10’ of conduit to the RV panel - had to be done “hot”. In any case, I estimated the job would run between $600 and $800 dollars. Total was $1,950, and that was with me buying the RV panel! But others I’ve related this to said the price was about right with the cost of wire and such.

I’ve also heard if you want 240v @ 50A in your garage, it’s best to tell the electrician it’s for a welder - electricians just assume EV owners have the wherewithal to pay more and charge accordingly.

I think that sounds an awful lot like running a new circuit lol But yeah you could put a new receptacle in an old box.

 

[dirtywick]

It may not sound difficult, but its certainly outside the ability of your average (non-electrician) homeowner. Which means added expense. Plus, you're at the mercy of whomever you hire to run the wires, and I've dealt with a few "lets just punch a hole and run the cable through the wall" contractors to know that they don't always worry about esthetics.

Getting a 220/240v outlet or circuit wired in from the beginning means that 1) it will definitely be available, for no added expense for those purchasing electric cars, and 2) it will be done 'right' (i.e. esthetically normal, all circuits properly rated, etc.)

Granted, it does mean added house costs for those who may not have an electric vehicle, but as EVs replace gas powered vehicles, that will apply to fewer and fewer people.

Well sure, I don't think anyone not qualified to do electrical work should do any electrical work, it can be deadly. What I meant by not difficult is that it can be done in basically any garage as easily as any other electrical job in any other part of your home. There's nothing especially difficult about it.

 

[bruto]

I would expect electrical work in a garage to be easier, rather than harder, because you don't have to bury the wires in walls, and in many cases, the electrical service will be in or near it

It is likely to be both safer and cheaper to run a new line rather than to try to repurpose an old one. Remember that wire size is determined by amperage, not wattage. You can carry more watts over 240 than 120, but you're still limited to the ampacity of the wires. So if you just reconfigure a 120 volt circuit for 240, you're still limited to 15 or 20 amps.

Most 120 volt outlets use either 12 or 14 gauge wire (15 or 20 amp), while typically a 30 amp. 240 line such as used in a dryer uses 10 gauge, a 40 amp range circuit 8 gauge and a 50 amp range circuit 6 gauge. With the possible exception of 10 gauge, existing conduit is unlikely to hold the wire, so you'd be unable simply to pull the old wire out and put the new in.

If I were building new, I'd certainly put in something at least capable of delivering 30 amps at 240 volts, such as a dryer uses, and a 50 wouldn't be such a bad idea. You'd then be able to run a charger, but also a compressor, power tools (including those a builder might need at some unspecified later date) welder, etc.

 

[dirtywick]

Physically trying to repurpose an existing garage receptacle is probably more work than running a new one for a variety of reasons. On another note I’m not sure what the code would require for a EV charger off hand and don’t have any desire to look it up, and also likely will vary by state, but I’d wager it requires its own dedicated circuit. Probably other ampacity requirements, maybe others as well. You’d likely be violating a code requirement to do that, nevermind the actual work that would need to be done. Which, again, would be a significant amount tantamount to running a new circuit.

 

[Shalamar]

We have a Hot Tub that died (it is now a fish pond), so we had the electrician sever the line to the Hot Tub, and run a new one in the garage for the car charger.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

A company that installs a couple chargers, pays property management a small fee to install there. Residents/visitors pay charging company directly. Install additional chargers under that scheme as needed.

Eventually it may make sense for management to install their own chargers. There has to be a means of metering the usage to charge the correct person.

An easier first step would be to require such installations on new construction as part of the building code or some other relevant law. In a hypothetical world where EV mass adoption is happening, I don't see any reason why localities should permit the building of new surface lots or garages that don't include this necessary infrastructure.

Doesn't seem like we're anywhere close to that level of adoption, purely speculating about what that might look like in one possible future.

 

[bonzombiekitty]

An easier first step would be to require such installations on new construction as part of the building code or some other relevant law. In a hypothetical world where EV mass adoption is happening, I don't see any reason why localities should permit the building of new surface lots or garages that don't include this necessary infrastructure.

The bolded part is where the problem is and is what I am referring to when it comes to political will. Right now, there isn't enough adoption happening to have the political will to require it in new surface lots. Landlords/developers aren't going want to spend the money to do it, and will lobby against it. Without enough people with electric vehicles to argue in favor, it won't happen.

That's why I think we're going to initially see private companies initially paying property owners to put in chargers. Indeed, that's what is happening around here. Private charger companies are paying a small fee to rent out a few spots in parking lots. Followed by owners starting to see the benefit of having them installed to attract customers. Then there will be sufficient adoption to have the political will to enforce installation in new projects.

 

[lomiller]

Thanks for the explanation.

Here’s that 230V reference:

Are you in Europe?

230V\400V 3-phase systems are apparently common there as a compromise between the 220\380V used in mainland Europe and 240\415V in the UK. That would be 230V for line-neutral though, not line - line.

 

[lomiller]

Just a side note on 3-phase power, but while most homes get a single split phase there could be some big advantages to delivering 3-phase to houses if electric cars were popularized and the chargers supported it.

15A 208V 3-phase can supply a little over 9KW. Single phase 240V would draw 40A to do the same thing. 15A can use 14 gauge wire while 40A needs 8 gauge wire which is a whole lot thicker and stiffer.