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We have our new PHEV since April. Due to the artificial noise it makes up to 30 km/h my wife and I call it Hui Buh which was a children's book character (a little ghost) when we were young. The car is also white, but not exactly little.
The US rental car situation being a bit strange lately, they say due to the lack of chips, but on a recent trip your pick any car you choose at National, turned into take the next one available, so I wound up with the first electric rental out of Philly.
Car was fine, quite sporty as a compact, wound up poaching electricity from a Hampton Inn, another misdemeanor not on the books.
I think I would consider buying one, when its my turn to choose the family car.
So, some people here have electric cars (or want to get one)....
But how many of you plan to buy an electric plane?
From: Electrek.co After Eviation unveiled the prototype of its Alice aircraft back in 2017, the company attracted a lot of attention and comparison with Tesla...Now, a few years later, Eviation is unveiling the production version of the Alice electric aircraft with a few more details:
"Alice, a nine-passenger, two-crew member aircraft, produces no carbon emissions, significantly reduces noise, and costs a fraction to operate per flight hour....The single-volume, high-energy density Alice battery system is made from currently available battery cells and is not reliant on future advancements."
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Eviation is planning to hold an inaugural flight later this year, but the certification process is going to take a while, and Alice is not expected to go into service until 2024.
They did downgrade the expected range a little since the initial announcement, but even at ~400 nautical miles, it would still work as a short-range commuter jet.
One of the good things about the battery in a car is that you can place it low in the car between the axles and it can actually have better performance than a lighter car where the weight is higher off the ground and mainly over one axle or the other. In cars the packaging flexibility of electric vehicles can offset the weight penalty somewhat.
I’m not aware of similar advantages in planes.
Maybe some remote short hop operations could reduce costs by removing a remote fuel depot and replacing it with electric charging facility. But that seems like a very niche application at best. It sounds like it will be more of a limited application aircraft with some green bragging rights. If it works well enough I guess some small airport in a very chic area may pass sound limits that preclude most non-electric planes, but only if it works well for their primary customers.
Seems like the power/weight ratio of batteries is going to be a MUCH bigger deal for planes than it is for cars.
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So the whole "Make it go" parts of an electric car are almost double the weight.
Well, there are all-electric planes in production right now. (Granted these are smaller planes rather than commercial aircraft.)
From: Quartz
For $140,000, you can fly your own electric airplane. The Slovenian company Pipistrel sells the Alpha Electro, the first electric aircraft certified as airworthy by the Federal Aviation Administration...European regulators granted another of Pipistrel’s aircraft, the Velis Electro, the world’s first electric “type certification,”
Then there are also hybrid planes... (electric engines, but with a gas generator assist)... one of them has made a flight of over 300 miles.
I know with new technology like this, that there will be many failures and setbacks. Some companies will go bust without producing anything viable, other companies will have extended delays getting to market. But, it does look like it might work.
I'll believe, absent a major leap in battery tech, a practical version of it when I see it.
From the first article I posted: Tesla CEO Elon Musk, who has revealed having his own design for a VTOL electric plane, says that such a system becomes possible once battery energy density reaches over 400 Wh/kg, while his Tesla vehicles are believed to be currently powered by battery cells with 250 to 300 Wh/kg. Battery technology is improving at a rapid pace, and many prototype battery cells have claimed to have reached the 400 Wh/kg barrier.
Yeah the whole "new battery tech" and/or "magical tipping point in capacity squeezed out of current tech" has been coming any day now for about 20 years.
At the end of the day Teslas, even the upcoming Roadster super-ultra-mega-ultimate-hypercar, are still powered by Lithium-Ion batteries, same as a budget laptop from 2003.
We've had dozen "next big thing" in battery tech since the late 90s that got around to actually happening.
Don't think the issue is so much a design advantage, but more of a lower fuel costs/lower maintenance issue.
Maybe some remote short hop operations could reduce costs by removing a remote fuel depot and replacing it with electric charging facility. But that seems like a very niche application at best.
The thing is, there are a lot of those routes that fit into the "short hop" category.
I am originally from a small city (~50,000 people) that is slightly under 400km from the largest central airport. Decades ago, they had jet planes providing service, later downgraded to turboprops, then canceled all together. A plane like the previously discussed 9-seater electric plane would be ideal...comfortably within range, lower cost to make it economically feasible, and not enough business to justify using larger commuter jets.
You also have the spectre of increased carbon taxes and more regulations. (For example, there were proposals in France to ban short-haul air routes where fast rail transport was available.)
There is a rather interesting documentary on youtube that talks about the business case for electric planes... it points out several locations and airlines where such short-hop travel dominates.
ETA: They also give an example of a small regional commuter operating in the New England area... they estimated that, based on lower fuel and maintenance costs, an all-electric fleet would increase their per-passenger profit from around $1 to over $100 (even with the high initial capital costs associated with buying new planes).
Going back to the original post, I am not sure there is a "topic focus" here, outside of EV's in general.
Anyway, I think electric is awesome.
But, I don't care about environmental reasons. I like the idea of something I can "refuel" at home. I don't have a big commute.
I also love the performance potential. I have enjoyed a pretty decent racing hobby, and what the Tesla's can do, while remaining "civilized", is amazing. To me, anyway.
Don't think the issue is so much a design advantage, but more of a lower fuel costs/lower maintenance issue.
The thing is, there are a lot of those routes that fit into the "short hop" category.
I am originally from a small city (~50,000 people) that is slightly under 400km from the largest central airport. Decades ago, they had jet planes providing service, later downgraded to turboprops, then canceled all together. A plane like the previously discussed 9-seater electric plane would be ideal...comfortably within range, lower cost to make it economically feasible, and not enough business to justify using larger commuter jets.
You also have the spectre of increased carbon taxes and more regulations. (For example, there were proposals in France to ban short-haul air routes where fast rail transport was available.)
There is a rather interesting documentary on youtube that talks about the business case for electric planes... it points out several locations and airlines where such short-hop travel dominates.
ETA: They also give an example of a small regional commuter operating in the New England area... they estimated that, based on lower fuel and maintenance costs, an all-electric fleet would increase their per-passenger profit from around $1 to over $100 (even with the high initial capital costs associated with buying new planes).
About 15 years ago, my wife worked for an airline at one of those small regional airports. She worked for a small airline that subcontracted the regional flights for a major airline. (This is typical.) Her job was to check people and their luggage in, guide the plane into the terminal (You know, the people with the batons?), load the luggage, clean the plane between flights, call the refueling service, and take boarding passes as they loaded the plane. Oh, she was also the one who de-iced the wings in the winter. (Generally, there were two to three people working on a given shift, so it wasn't like she had to do it all for every flight.)
Anyway, generally, a plane is turned around for the next flight in something like 20 minutes. There isn't a fleet parked at regional airports, and barring mechanical issues, the planes don't overnight there. (The pilots and crew want to go home.)
The current model of how airlines work would not allow charging between each flight. I think you would at least need to be able to make a round trip on a single charge.
Anyway, generally, a plane is turned around for the next flight in something like 20 minutes. There isn't a fleet parked at regional airports, and barring mechanical issues, the planes don't overnight there. (The pilots and crew want to go home.)
The current model of how airlines work would not allow charging between each flight. I think you would at least need to be able to make a round trip on a single charge.
I don't think charging time is the real barrier here, because airlines can avoid the biggest problem cars have with swapping batteries.
For cars, people have suggested swapping out batteries at service stations. But that's a bad idea, because batteries are a major capital cost for electric cars. You don't want to be swapping a battery you paid good money for for a battery of unknown quality. Various suggested workarounds have been proposed, but they're all bandaids on the problem of who owns the battery if you're swapping it, and how to handle the owner and the user possibly being different.
But airlines don't have that problem. You're staying on a fixed route. You aren't swapping your batteries for some unknown batteries from some unknown user. You are taking one of your batteries out, and putting back in one of your batteries. They're all still your batteries.
I'm still not optimistic about electric planes simply from an energy density perspective. I don't think battery performance is good enough. But the charging time problem is probably solvable.
About 15 years ago, my wife worked for an airline at one of those small regional airports.
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Anyway, generally, a plane is turned around for the next flight in something like 20 minutes.
...
The current model of how airlines work would not allow charging between each flight. I think you would at least need to be able to make a round trip on a single charge.
Depending on the route, that might not be a problem.
One of the examples provided in the video I referred to used a route between Boston and Rockland, ME. The distance by car between the 2 is roughly 184 miles. So a round trip on a single charge is certainly within the 460 mile (400 nautical mile) range of the Alice electric plane, with roughly 100 miles to spare.
That's also assuming 1) they don't try any sort of battery exchange, and 2) They don't spend the 20 minutes on the ground doing at least a little extra top-up of the batteries. (Not sure how fast charging times are, but you'd probably get at least a little extra range from 20 minutes of charging. Probably not enough to fully charge, but enough to add at least a few extra miles of range.), and 3) it assumes that an airline would keep to a 20 minute turn-around. (They may find that the greater cost savings in fuel/maintenance might make it economical to alter their schedule to allow more charging time, even if it does mean perhaps 1 less flight per day.)
I also have to wonder how common a 20 minute turn around is. The video I saw suggested 3-6 flights a day for that particular airline. If its a 1 hour flight, and the airline runs for ~12 hours/day, that would give them ~1 hour charge time between flights.
Depending on the route, that might not be a problem.
One of the examples provided in the video I referred to used a route between Boston and Rockland, ME. The distance by car between the 2 is roughly 184 miles. So a round trip on a single charge is certainly within the 460 mile (400 nautical mile) range of the Alice electric plane, with roughly 100 miles to spare.
No, this is wrong. Airplane ranges are not like car ranges. The energy required to take of and climb to altitude means a 400 mile trip is not equivalent to two 200 mile trips. The latter will take significantly more energy than the former.
No, this is wrong. Airplane ranges are not like car ranges. The energy required to take of and climb to altitude means a 400 mile trip is not equivalent to two 200 mile trips. The latter will take significantly more energy than the former.
I do wonder how much range they can dump into a partially depleted battery when they can tailor the charging infrastructure to the battery and only need a few chargers, relatively speaking.
Plane arrives with battery at 60% and they want to have 80% before take off. Might that be doable in half an hour? That seems like a pretty good goal, at least.
All that work to climb and no way to recover any energy as you come down. Such a bummer. At least when you see an electric car climbing a pass you know they will be getting some return on the backside. Not an argument, just a major difference in operational parameters. The plane needs most of its power just to get off the ground, as zig points out. Range has to be looked at quite differently.
Maybe no stop and go traffic, but multiple short flights really skewer expectations.
Depending on the route, that might not be a problem.
One of the examples provided in the video I referred to used a route between Boston and Rockland, ME. The distance by car between the 2 is roughly 184 miles. So a round trip on a single charge is certainly within the 460 mile (400 nautical mile) range of the Alice electric plane, with roughly 100 miles to spare.
No, this is wrong. Airplane ranges are not like car ranges. The energy required to take of and climb to altitude means a 400 mile trip is not equivalent to two 200 mile trips. The latter will take significantly more energy than the former.
True, I hadn't really factored in the amount of energy used in take offs. And 2 short trips will use more energy than 1 long trip.
But, I don't think that will make much of a difference.
If I remember correctly, roughly 1/5th of the fuel in a conventional plane is used during take offs and landings. (I'll defer to any actual pilots, but google and find a few forums that gave the same sort of answer.) Remember, I said it would have ~100 miles of range to spare in the round trip (which is approximately 1/5th of its energy.)
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