What did Democrats do wrong?

[Thermal]

What do you mean, no one to purchase our goods? There are 340 million Americans. That's a lot of people to purchase our goods.

And that's assuming that we don't have any foreign markets. Which is a bad assumption.

Getting our trading partners to lower their tariffs on US goods is a good thing for the US. Which is the point of the tariff threat. Trump has been quite open about this. His goal isn't to have high tariffs on imports to the US, his goal is to get others to have lower tariffs on imports from the US. US tariffs are the leverage he's using to try to make that happen. And he might succeed. He's going to piss people off, but that's hardly the only important metric. When someone is taking advantage of you and you stand up for yourself, that will piss them off, but oh well.

You seem to be rather inconsistent here. You think Europeans won't buy American goods because they don't like America, but you expect Americans will keep buying Chinese goods despite not liking China. Why? Are European consumers more noble, more principled, more patriotic than American consumers? No, I don't think so.

Europeans won't buy American goods if their tariffs make our goods too expensive. They will buy American goods if our goods are competitive on price. That's why Americans buy Chinese goods, because they are competitive on price. They may bitch and complain, but if the price is right, they will still buy. That's how trade works.

In fairness, other countries have tariffs on some US imports. What Trump is throwing down is a draconian sweep across the board, that other nations don't impose on us.

 

[Ziggurat]

In fairness, other countries have tariffs on some US imports. What Trump is throwing down is a draconian sweep across the board, that other nations don't impose on us.

What Trump is threatening is wide-ranging tariffs. That's not the end state goal, that's the stick for negotiations. It may or may not work, but it's silly to evaluate this approach based only on the threat and not the results.

 

[The Great Zaganza]

Other countries don't buy US goods because they are subpar quality or incompatible (cars).
The US consumer is very different from most people on earth, making it difficult to market the same products domestically and globally.
And US companies refuse to invest in other countries to build their own factories if they can't get extremely favorable tax deals and exceptions from labor laws- which other countries have no reason to grant just to bring in competition to their domestic producers.
Example is Tesla, which is big trouble with its factory near Berlin, not being able to bully its workers the way the Musk Business Model demands.

Decades of spending more on lobbying than R&D have crippled the competitiveness of US companies.

 

[Ziggurat]

The US consumer is very different from most people on earth,

Not really. Every market is different in some way, but the differences aren't fundamental.

 

[plague311]

You seem to be rather inconsistent here. You think Europeans won't buy American goods because they don't like America, but you expect Americans will keep buying Chinese goods despite not liking China. Why? Are European consumers more noble, more principled, more patriotic than American consumers? No, I don't think so.

No inconsistency at all. I'm pointing out that it's a fact our trading partners are avoiding buying US made products because of recent actions. That is a new change. It hasn't always been that way, but Canadians all over stating they are avoiding purchasing US goods now that Trump is acting the way he is. You can deny it if you want, I don't give a ◊◊◊◊. There is supporting evidence that it's happening right now.

People who aren't buying goods from China have had that mindset for a long time. That's not new. Biden didn't endorse China, or encourage people to buy their products and so there's some huge change now. Look at the two people in this thread I'm speaking with, both of them have made it clear that they won't buy from China or Russia, and they haven't for awhile. So my whole point is the actions of the orange anus is driving away allies and trading partners. While it might not completely destroy all trade it is already having a measurable impact.

Europeans won't buy American goods if their tariffs make our goods too expensive. They will buy American goods if our goods are competitive on price. That's why Americans buy Chinese goods, because they are competitive on price. They may bitch and complain, but if the price is right, they will still buy. That's how trade works.

Thanks for that obvious information. I am genuinely unaware of the answer, but what products do we provide to Europe that Europe can't acquire somewhere else for the same, or comparable, cost?

 

[plague311]

I think it's important to encourage domestic production, again no matter who is in the Oval office for four years. In 2028, we will hopefully have a change of party and restore healthy relationships, but building domestic factories etc takes time. It needs to start now, or even better, 20 years ago. Trump will be gone and we will be respected again.

I think you might find that restoring these relationships may take longer than building domestic factories. Listen to the leaders of Germany and France talk about Trump. You think they're going to just drop it once he's gone? Hell no. They know as well as we do that there is an entire political party that's subservient to that man, and now that party knows that talking and acting like him wins elections. You think the GOP is going to change? You think the constant shifting further and further to the right will encourage our trade allies to do business with us? As Zigg alluded to, do you think this constant fear of the worst case scenario that Trump starts with as a negotiating tactic will not wear thin and cause our trade partners to just avoid us at all costs? What impact will that have on our economy? Global trade is a massive part of our labor and economy.

The damage we're doing to international ties with our allies isn't as ho-hum as Zigg and Emily's Cat are painting it. Isolationism isn't going to work in today's world. "When Fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag". That's what we're seeing now. Isolationism being celebrated as patriotism further secluding the US because we're egocentric ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊◊ that think the whole world wants to be us or can't live without us. And that is complete ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊ bull ◊◊◊◊.

 

[Ziggurat]

Thanks for that obvious information. I am genuinely unaware of the answer, but what products do we provide to Europe that Europe can't acquire somewhere else for the same, or comparable, cost?

The F-35 is one example. There is no equivalent on the market, we're the sole supplier, and European countries will continue to buy it for some time.

Of course, that's a bit of a niche product. More generally speaking, US exports to Europe are dominated by the categories "machinery & vehicles", "energy", and "chemicals". In the first and third categories, we buy more from Europe than they buy from us, so Europe has more to lose in a tariff war than the US. In that second category, well, trade is heavily lopsided, mostly going from the US to Europe with very little going the other direction. But Europe doesn't really have leverage there because there isn't really an available substitute for US energy imports unless they go back to Russia.

 

[Ziggurat]

"When Fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag".

“The dark night of fascism is always descending in the United States and yet lands only in Europe.”
― Tom Wolfe

 

[Thermal]

I think you might find that restoring these relationships may take longer than building domestic factories. Listen to the leaders of Germany and France talk about Trump. You think they're going to just drop it once he's gone? Hell no. They know as well as we do that there is an entire political party that's subservient to that man, and now that party knows that talking and acting like him wins elections. You think the GOP is going to change? You think the constant shifting further and further to the right will encourage our trade allies to do business with us? As Zigg alluded to, do you think this constant fear of the worst case scenario that Trump starts with as a negotiating tactic will not wear thin and cause our trade partners to just avoid us at all costs? What impact will that have on our economy? Global trade is a massive part of our labor and economy.

The damage we're doing to international ties with our allies isn't as ho-hum as Zigg and Emily's Cat are painting it. Isolationism isn't going to work in today's world. "When Fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag". That's what we're seeing now. Isolationism being celebrated as patriotism further secluding the US because we're egocentric ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊◊ that think the whole world wants to be us or can't live without us. And that is complete ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊ bull ◊◊◊◊.

Honestly, I don't think we are going to continue on the Trumpster Fire Trajectory and keep moving to the right. I feel confident that Trump is going to lose a lot of his support, and 2028 is going to nudge those election abstainers out of screen saver again. I am confident the damage that this administration will do is going to be that bad. And yes, it will take time to repair our trade agreements and for people to regain faith in the US, as they have had during either party in power in the past.

Isolationism isn't on my targets. Fair paying jobs for working people is. So yeah, we will remain a global trader. That's healthy. Being at the mercy of China is not. And as far as Russian made stuff, just ◊◊◊◊ that on principle as long as Ukraine is on the defensive. I can buy high quality Bic blades made in Greece for less than the Russian Gillettes.

 

[Thermal]

“The dark night of fascism is always descending in the United States and yet lands only in Europe.”
― Tom Wolfe

Wolfe didn't write that in the last month, I'm guessing.

 

[Ziggurat]

Wolfe didn't write that in the last month, I'm guessing.

I'm sure he didn't. And yet, it's still as true today as when he wrote it. The US isn't where the government threatens people with prosecution for praying in their own homes.

 

[Thermal]

I'm sure he didn't. And yet, it's still as true today as when he wrote it. The US isn't where the government threatens people with prosecution for praying in their own homes.

Threatening us with prayer-bashing isn't the brand of fascism I'm worried about.

 

[Ziggurat]

Threatening us with prayer-bashing isn't the brand of fascism I'm worried about.

There are brands of fascism you're OK with?

 

[Thermal]

There are brands of fascism you're OK with?

No. I said those are not the ones I'm worried about, ie right on my ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊ horizon and no longer abstract.

 

[The Great Zaganza]

Not really. Every market is different in some way, but the differences aren't fundamental.

very fundamental: most cars sold in the US do not meet emission or safety standards of the EU.
Many food products do not meet EU standards.

 

[Ziggurat]

No. I said those are not the ones I'm worried about, ie right on my ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊ horizon and no longer abstract.

And yet, they're the ones actually materializing.

Perhaps your threat detector isn't working quite right.

 

[Thermal]

And yet, they're the ones actually materializing.

Perhaps your threat detector isn't working quite right.

We'll see. After J6, my anti-demorcracy detector seems calibrated pretty well.

 

[Ziggurat]

We'll see. After J6, my anti-demorcracy detector seems calibrated pretty well.

After all the lies about J6, I think you're kidding yourself.

 

[Thermal]

After all the lies about J6, I think you're kidding yourself.

The initial misinformation got straightened out in time, as they usually do. Four years later, and after a mass pardoning, things are pretty clear now.

 

[Ziggurat]

The initial misinformation got straightened out in time

Oh, I'm not talking about mistakes. I'm talking about deliberate lies, deliberate deception, deliberate attempts to hide the truth. And no, most people still don't really know about it all.

Four years later, and after a mass pardoning, things are pretty clear now.

After Liz Cheney's pardon, the fact that the congressional investigation was a fraud is clear.