What did Democrats do wrong?

[johnny karate]

Seconded. Democrats should be in front of every camera and microphone they can find telling the us what Republicans are doing, 24 hours a day. Republicans won by shaping public opinion with a non-stop barrage of propaganda. Democrats need to learn from that, and learn fast.

 

[Thermal]

In his defense, he's right about a lot of it. What are the Dems supposed to do? They literally don't have any real power right now. The GOP controls all of the committees, both chambers and the WH. Sure they can obstruct a bit. They can bitch, they can moan, they can make noise during hearings and all that, but outside of that there's nothing they can do.

Making a lot of noise is exactly what the Dems need to do, if for no other reason than to show the country and the world how pissed we are about this administration. That way when they regain power, they can say "remember us? We have been publicly blasting this bitch for years, and we walk it like we talk it". That's the foundation for future trust and credibility.

I don't find this to be true. There is a ton of damage, as I stated before, that he can do to our international relationships, economy, and the rights of minorities. That damage will not be undone. Some of it might be able to be undone in a few decades, but certainly not all of it. We're watching the status of the US on the global stage plummet. Other countries don't look at us the way you are looking at the US now.

I know, but only time will tell. What happens over the next four, and how the public reacts. The other nations can see simultaneous protests in every US state, just like we do. They know 'we' are not 'them', and I'm pretty sure that the distinction will be made when power switches back. No, they won't simply forgive and forget with a playful hair-toussel, but we'll get there.

 

[Donal]

Seconded. Democrats should be in front of every camera and microphone they can find telling the us what Republicans are doing, 24 hours a day. Republicans won by shaping public opinion with a non-stop barrage of propaganda. Democrats need to learn from that, and learn fast.

Not just to be in front of cameras. To provide real tangible benefits to people in need. Be part of the communities. Show people there is an alternative. Both parties are not the same.

 

[d4m10n]

The Ragin' Cajun, Carville, posted an op-ed that Democrats should basically do nothing and wait for everything to implode.

"Let's all wait for the school shooter to run out of bullets!" I mean, technically it will work...

The school shooter analogy feels hyperbolic to me, but the wait and see approach really will actually get plenty of people killed.

For example, horror stories are already piling up around the USAID cutoff.

 

[plague311]

Making a lot of noise is exactly what the Dems need to do, if for no other reason than to show the country and the world how pissed we are about this administration. That way when they regain power, they can say "remember us? We have been publicly blasting this bitch for years, and we walk it like we talk it". That's the foundation for future trust and credibility.

IMO, they're making some noise right now. Even the aforementioned quote is making noise by making it clear that there isn't much they can do, but they recognize the damage that's being done. Make no mistake, I agree with what you're saying. I just don't know that the guy making the quote is saying any different. As I interpret it, he's not saying "do nothing", he's saying "we can't do anything right now". We're at the FO of the FAFO. To me, that's what he's saying is that now we have to find out. The Dems will continue to do what they do, which is point out every single ◊◊◊◊◊◊ up thing that the Trump admin is doing, but there's really nothing they can do to stop it.

I know, but only time will tell. What happens over the next four, and how the public reacts. The other nations can see simultaneous protests in every US state, just like we do. They know 'we' are not 'them', and I'm pretty sure that the distinction will be made when power switches back. No, they won't simply forgive and forget with a playful hair-toussel, but we'll get there.

I'm sure they will absolutely know that the Dems will restore the ship when\if they get back in power, but that's not really reassuring now that they also know that one ignorant, racist, dumb ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊ bitch boy can be elected by a large swatch of dip ◊◊◊◊◊ and everything good can be undone quite easily. That's the damage I'm talking about. I agree with you that other countries can see the protests, and the fighting, and so on. That does say something positive about us, but the fact remains more of our citizens voted for Trump than Harris for no good reason. I think that says way, way more to anyone from the outside looking in.

 

[PitPat]

They can stop voting with Republicans. Let the GQP completely own whatever mess is coming.

I'm not sure where there are cases of Dems voting for Republican bills. If anything, there are a few Republicans (e.g., Murkowski, Collins, McConnell) who break ranks with the tribe.

 

[Emily's Cat]

i thought the label was almost always in reference to the manufacturing jobs these companies provided assembling the product.

Also where virtually all of the components are made.

Made in USA

www.ftc.gov

According to the Federal Trade Commission, “Made in USA” means that “all or virtually all” the product has been made in America. That is, all significant parts, processing and labor that go into the product must be of U.S. origin.

 

[Thermal]

Also where virtually all of the components are made.

Made in USA

www.ftc.gov

Yeah, they are playing fast and loose with Made versus Built/Assembled in USA lately. There are some sunglasses that are made entirely overseas, then the arms screwed on here and lenses popped in, that can label themselves "Built in USA".

 

[Emily's Cat]

I, also, look at the world through rose-colored glasses. You think all this ◊◊◊◊ is going to bring manufacturing back to the US? With no one to purchase our goods, you think we can sustain a growing manufacturing sector?Alienating all of our trading partners is a good thing to you guys? That makes sense to you? You don't think that's going to have a massive, massive impact on American jobs when we have a fraction of our goods being exported because every country hates us for cozying up to Russia, and alienating our allies, but I should give a ◊◊◊◊ about buying something from China? Because of, what was it, child labor? The US is hanging Ukrainians out to dry unless they agree to our blackmail for their countries rare Earth metals but if I buy Made in US products then I guess I'm supporting the "good guys"? Sorry, moral grandstanding doesn't do much for me when we live in a country run by one of the most morally bankrupt ◊◊◊◊◊ I've ever seen.

Once the US gets its own ◊◊◊◊ in order I'll start worrying about buying ◊◊◊◊ from China or Russia. Especially since Russia isn't the enemy anymore according to our POTUS.

re the highlighted... are you under the impression that US citizens don't buy anything?

Regarding alienating trading partners... I dont' think it's reasonable or beneficial to the US to suck up to international trading partners, when doing so reduces the availability of US jobs, increases unemployment in the US or pushes everyone into a dichotomy of minimum wage service jobs or white collar stuff that requires absurd costs for a useless college degree. Outsourcing the vast majority of our manufacturing to other countries has *increased* wealth inequailty in the US, because there aren't any middle-ground industries that pay well for necessary primary core materials and components and don't require a college degree. We used to have a thriving skilled trades market - but the push to get everyone a 4-year college degree partnered with an insane level of contempt for tradesmen has made it something younger people don't want to do - and that' straight up crazy. We also used to have a thriving manufacturing industry that produced vast amounts of commonly used materials, parts, and components... but because of our extremely generous trade agreements with other countries... *WE* created a situation where *CORPORATIONS* make more money if they get rid of their US employees and buy materials from overseas companies that use borderline slave labor.


You're arguing that we should continue to enrich large corporations and foreign companies that exploit their workers while simultaneously limiting opportunities for Americans to have a reasonable middle class lifestyle without fragile supply chains... so YOU can have cheaper goods?

Seriously buddy, take a step back and evaluate your biases. You're letting your rabid hate of Trump and Republicans put you in a position where you're advocating to continue exploitative labor of foreign people and children, push ever increasing numbers of US citizens into lower incomes and paycheck-to-paycheck dependency, enrich massive multinational megacorporations... so you can stick it to "those guys".

 

[Emily's Cat]

My issue comes with China and Russia. We should avoid supply-side reliance on our actual adversaries, no matter who is in the Executive branch right now. Our dependence on Chinese products has gotten to the point where they could cripple us at will.

I would have thought that the pandemic really hammered this home, but apparently not.

How many commonly used, foundational items became unobtainium during the pandemic - not because of the actual virus, but because the supply chain got interrupted? ESPECIALLY chinese supplied items? China, with it's reported 'zero' cases of covid and perfect handling of the infection, which nevertheless just stopped shipping goods. Sure, maybe we can all use leaves instead of toilet paper, and fabric napkins instead of disposable paper towels, that's great... But a huge number of necessary drugs became unavailable because they're all produced in china! There are a lot of goods that became hard to find, and when you did find them the prices spiked absurdly... and the majority of them can be traced to a halt of shipping out of china.

 

[Emily's Cat]

What Trump is threatening is wide-ranging tariffs. That's not the end state goal, that's the stick for negotiations. It may or may not work, but it's silly to evaluate this approach based only on the threat and not the results.

I end up thinking that a lot of posters on this forum have never actually worked in a business environment at any level above call center or reception. Maybe IT.

I don't like Trump, but a large portion of what their administration is doing right now is bog-standard business negotiation tactics. Hell, most of Trump's behaviors are based on business strategies - strategies that work very well in the real world. Negotiations almost never start from a 'fair" position - each side starts by asking for something that is massively in their interests, and then they trade bits and pieces until they come to something that's acceptable and fair for both sides. Neither gets everything they want, but each usually gets what they actually need.

People bitch about Trump being "friendly" with the leaders of adversarial countries... but that's what you do when you're negotiating. Going in to try to negotiate a diplomatic solution with Russia and Ukraine is not possible if you act like a schoolyard bully toward Putin. Being respectful and stroking Kim Jong Un's ego costs us nothing, but it sure as hell increases the odds of convincing them to not engage in aggressive activities.

In the real world, people don't have the luxury of being ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊◊ to people they don't like, just so they get their rocks off by making the other person feel bad. I mean, you can do that, but you're not going to be successful, your going to have a ◊◊◊◊◊◊ life. In the real world, real adults frequently have to play nice and make small talk with people they hate, because that's what gets things done. One of our C-Suite Execs is a person I really dislike, I think they're bad at their job, I don't particularly respect them, I think they engage in favoritism in a way that's detrimental to the company and they just plain make bad decisions. But I still have to work with them on a regular basis, and I need to be able to get them to back me up on occasion, I have to have them in my corner for some undertakings. That's absolutely not going to happen if I say what I really think, or if I treat them poorly. So guess what? I know what their hobbies are, I know things about their family, I know what they care about - all so I can ask about whether or not their youngest is doing well in the new school that has better programs for neurodiverse children, and hey how was the grape crop this year do you think you're going to end up with some good wine from it? Because that's how you actually make progress and get things done as a rational adult. That's what civility is about.

 

[Emily's Cat]

“The dark night of fascism is always descending in the United States and yet lands only in Europe.”
― Tom Wolfe

Oof... this captures something of modern sentiments...

"You American intellectuals — you want so desperately to feel besieged and persecuted!"

 

[Emily's Cat]

Yeah, they are playing fast and loose with Made versus Built/Assembled in USA lately. There are some sunglasses that are made entirely overseas, then the arms screwed on here and lenses popped in, that can label themselves "Built in USA".

Agreed, really need to make sure the label is "Made in the USA". I've seen ones with Built or Assembled which is marginally better than being entirely created overseas and just imported... but it's not the same by any means.

 

[Thermal]

I end up thinking that a lot of posters on this forum have never actually worked in a business environment at any level above call center or reception. Maybe IT.

I don't like Trump, but a large portion of what their administration is doing right now is bog-standard business negotiation tactics. Hell, most of Trump's behaviors are based on business strategies - strategies that work very well in the real world. Negotiations almost never start from a 'fair" position - each side starts by asking for something that is massively in their interests, and then they trade bits and pieces until they come to something that's acceptable and fair for both sides. Neither gets everything they want, but each usually gets what they actually need.

People bitch about Trump being "friendly" with the leaders of adversarial countries... but that's what you do when you're negotiating. Going in to try to negotiate a diplomatic solution with Russia and Ukraine is not possible if you act like a schoolyard bully toward Putin. Being respectful and stroking Kim Jong Un's ego costs us nothing, but it sure as hell increases the odds of convincing them to not engage in aggressive activities.

Ok, but... yes and no. We do need to be on reasonably cordial terms, but that can backfire into a power imbalance quickly. for instance, Putin seems to have no fear whatsoever of the US. Trump has put us in a subservient position (in Vlad's eyes). He has no reason to blink with Trump. He knows Trump will be obedient. That's not a healthy respect or relationship.

In the real world, people don't have the luxury of being ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊◊ to people they don't like, just so they get their rocks off by making the other person feel bad. I mean, you can do that, but you're not going to be successful, your going to have a ◊◊◊◊◊◊ life. In the real world, real adults frequently have to play nice and make small talk with people they hate, because that's what gets things done. One of our C-Suite Execs is a person I really dislike, I think they're bad at their job, I don't particularly respect them, I think they engage in favoritism in a way that's detrimental to the company and they just plain make bad decisions. But I still have to work with them on a regular basis, and I need to be able to get them to back me up on occasion, I have to have them in my corner for some undertakings. That's absolutely not going to happen if I say what I really think, or if I treat them poorly. So guess what? I know what their hobbies are, I know things about their family, I know what they care about - all so I can ask about whether or not their youngest is doing well in the new school that has better programs for neurodiverse children, and hey how was the grape crop this year do you think you're going to end up with some good wine from it? Because that's how you actually make progress and get things done as a rational adult. That's what civility is about.

This is true. In fairness though, a lot of people in the position of authority know 100% who is schmoozing and who is sincere. They take notes on that, too.

 

[Ziggurat]

Ok, but... yes and no. We do need to be on reasonably cordial terms, but that can backfire into a power imbalance quickly. for instance, Putin seems to have no fear whatsoever of the US. Trump has put us in a subservient position (in Vlad's eyes). He has no reason to blink with Trump. He knows Trump will be obedient. That's not a healthy respect or relationship.

Oh, I very much doubt that. Putin is going to pretend he has an upper hand over Trump because that's going to play well domestically, and that's really important to him. His very life may depend on domestic perception of him. But Trump has a ◊◊◊◊ ton of leverage on Putin, and there's no way that Putin doesn't know that. For example, at zero additional cost, we can loosen the targeting rules for Ukraine's use of long-range weapons like ATACMS. We could also up the amount of weapons we send. But that's hardly the end of it, and it's not just military means. There is still room to squeeze Russia on the oil front, and Trump has shown himself quite willing to use those sort of tools. Lest you forget, Trump pushed hard against Nordstream 2. Trump has never actually been obedient to Putin.

This is true. In fairness though, a lot of people in the position of authority know 100% who is schmoozing and who is sincere. They take notes on that, too.

The thing is, sincerity isn't required. If Trump says nice things about Putin, whether or not he meant them and whether or not Putin believes him, it still matters to Putin that he said them. Appearances matter in politics. In fairness, that cuts both ways, because the people upset that Trump said nice things about Putin aren't going to be mollified by the idea that he wasn't being sincere. But the point still stands that Putin doesn't need to believe that Trump was sincere in order for the tactic to work.

 

[Thermal]

Oh, I very much doubt that. Putin is going to pretend he has an upper hand over Trump because that's going to play well domestically, and that's really important to him. His very life may depend on domestic perception of him. But Trump has a ◊◊◊◊ ton of leverage on Putin, and there's no way that Putin doesn't know that. For example, at zero additional cost, we can loosen the targeting rules for Ukraine's use of long-range weapons like ATACMS. We could also up the amount of weapons we send. But that's hardly the end of it, and it's not just military means. There is still room to squeeze Russia on the oil front, and Trump has shown himself quite willing to use those sort of tools. Lest you forget, Trump pushed hard against Nordstream 2. Trump has never actually been obedient to Putin.

We certainly have every means of leverage at our fingertips. Yet Trump publicly says Ukraine 'started it', and continues playing Beta President to Putin's Alpha.

The thing is, sincerity isn't required. If Trump says nice things about Putin, whether or not he meant them and whether or not Putin believes him, it still matters to Putin that he said them. Appearances matter in politics. In fairness, that cuts both ways, because the people upset that Trump said nice things about Putin aren't going to be mollified by the idea that he wasn't being sincere. But the point still stands that Putin doesn't need to believe that Trump was sincere in order for the tactic to work.

I'm anxious to see Putin show anything but contempt for us. Any idea how long we'll be waiting?

 

[dirtywick]

i wonder what trump plans to do with all of this massive leverage he is getting from doing exactly what putin wants and allowing him to insult him publicly.

that is what people with the upper hand do, right?

 

[plague311]

re the highlighted... are you under the impression that US citizens don't buy anything?

Regarding alienating trading partners... I dont' think it's reasonable or beneficial to the US to suck up to international trading partners, when doing so reduces the availability of US jobs, increases unemployment in the US or pushes everyone into a dichotomy of minimum wage service jobs or white collar stuff that requires absurd costs for a useless college degree. Outsourcing the vast majority of our manufacturing to other countries has *increased* wealth inequailty in the US, because there aren't any middle-ground industries that pay well for necessary primary core materials and components and don't require a college degree. We used to have a thriving skilled trades market - but the push to get everyone a 4-year college degree partnered with an insane level of contempt for tradesmen has made it something younger people don't want to do - and that' straight up crazy. We also used to have a thriving manufacturing industry that produced vast amounts of commonly used materials, parts, and components... but because of our extremely generous trade agreements with other countries... *WE* created a situation where *CORPORATIONS* make more money if they get rid of their US employees and buy materials from overseas companies that use borderline slave labor.


You're arguing that we should continue to enrich large corporations and foreign companies that exploit their workers while simultaneously limiting opportunities for Americans to have a reasonable middle class lifestyle without fragile supply chains... so YOU can have cheaper goods?

Seriously buddy, take a step back and evaluate your biases. You're letting your rabid hate of Trump and Republicans put you in a position where you're advocating to continue exploitative labor of foreign people and children, push ever increasing numbers of US citizens into lower incomes and paycheck-to-paycheck dependency, enrich massive multinational megacorporations... so you can stick it to "those guys".

I wish I could live in a world where it would make sense that alienating all of our trade partners, and only producing products for the US would somehow increase jobs in the US. I know you're in this "I have to excuse or rationalize everything Trump does" mode, but this is getting crazy.

Also, you don't need to say "you're arguing that" before making some ◊◊◊◊ up that I'm not saying or arguing for. You have a habit of strawmanning my statements. I'd say try not to, but...well what's the point?

ETA: When it comes to "taking a step back", just remember that you're on the side of the biggest global laughing stock in the world. The side that's tearing apart the US step-by-step. So, seriously "buddy", how about you take your own ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊ advice? I'm not the one dick riding Trump and all his nonsense policies that are making us a ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊ joke, you are. The one that's "totally not a Trumper" that literally can't stop defending everything he does. Save your ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊ advice. I don't want it, and the day I listen to it is the day I have a tag on my toe.

 

[Donal]

Oh, I very much doubt that. Putin is going to pretend he has an upper hand over Trump because that's going to play well domestically, and that's really important to him. His very life may depend on domestic perception of him.

Allegedly, a big motivator for invading Ukraine in the first place.

But Trump has a ◊◊◊◊ ton of leverage on Putin, and there's no way that Putin doesn't know that.

And yet, here we are.

For example, at zero additional cost, we can loosen the targeting rules for Ukraine's use of long-range weapons like ATACMS. We could also up the amount of weapons we send. But that's hardly the end of it, and it's not just military means. There is still room to squeeze Russia on the oil front, and Trump has shown himself quite willing to use those sort of tools. Lest you forget, Trump pushed hard against Nordstream 2. Trump has never actually been obedient to Putin.

Except when it is for material benefit. I'm sure his daddy Vladdy convinced him it was his own idea to alienate NATO.

The thing is, sincerity isn't required. If Trump says nice things about Putin, whether or not he meant them and whether or not Putin believes him, it still matters to Putin that he said them. Appearances matter in politics. In fairness, that cuts both ways, because the people upset that Trump said nice things about Putin aren't going to be mollified by the idea that he wasn't being sincere. But the point still stands that Putin doesn't need to believe that Trump was sincere in order for the tactic to work.

I'm sure Putin realizes Trump is just a weak little toady trying to curry favor with the alpha in the room.

 

[Donal]

I end up thinking that a lot of posters on this forum have never actually worked in a business environment at any level above call center or reception. Maybe IT.

And you'd be wrong, but that doesn't stop you from sharing your hot takes. And what exactly do you think IT is?

I don't like Trump, but a large portion of what their administration is doing right now is bog-standard business negotiation tactics.

1) no it isn't. Its for wannabe Gordon Geckos who don't care about building and maintaining relationships and also believe they hold overwhelming leverage.

2) Repeat after me: Businesses are not nations

Hell, most of Trump's behaviors are based on business strategies

No, they are based on ego.

- strategies that work very well in the real world.

You mean the 6 bankruptcies? Getting laughed out to Jersey by Ed Koch? Trump Steaks, Trump Airlines, Trump Vodka, etc.

His business is personal branding. And that does not translate to public service, which is what the presidency is.

Negotiations almost never start from a 'fair" position - each side starts by asking for something that is massively in their interests, and then they trade bits and pieces until they come to something that's acceptable and fair for both sides. Neither gets everything they want, but each usually gets what they actually need.

Funny. Trump believes he should bludgeon the other side until he gets everything he wants. It is all a zero sum game to him. If you walk away happy, that means he "lost". that's why he keep reneging on deals after he gets what he wants. Like when Zelensky agreed to sign over 50% of the mineral rights to the US. Now, Trump is berating him. Just like after work was finished, he'd refuse to pay his contractors the agreed upon price and make them accept pennies on the dollar.

People bitch about Trump being "friendly" with the leaders of adversarial countries

No, he's compliant with foreign adversaries. Especially after they pay him compliments. There's a reason no president before him ever directly met with DPRK's dictator. And none of them sure as ◊◊◊◊ saluted DPRK military officers.

Trump is too stupid and self involved to understand the intricacies of things like governing and international relations.

... but that's what you do when you're negotiating. Going in to try to negotiate a diplomatic solution with Russia and Ukraine is not possible if you act like a schoolyard bully toward Putin. Being respectful and stroking Kim Jong Un's ego costs us nothing, but it sure as hell increases the odds of convincing them to not engage in aggressive activities.

But it's OK to act like a addled brained bully to your allies? You don't think legitimizing the Kim regime hurt our negotiating position? What did DPRK do to earn that standing?

In the real world, people don't have the luxury of being ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊◊ to people they don't like, just so they get their rocks off by making the other person feel bad. I mean, you can do that, but you're not going to be successful, your going to have a ◊◊◊◊◊◊ life. In the real world, real adults frequently have to play nice and make small talk with people they hate, because that's what gets things done. One of our C-Suite Execs is a person I really dislike, I think they're bad at their job, I don't particularly respect them, I think they engage in favoritism in a way that's detrimental to the company and they just plain make bad decisions. But I still have to work with them on a regular basis, and I need to be able to get them to back me up on occasion, I have to have them in my corner for some undertakings. That's absolutely not going to happen if I say what I really think, or if I treat them poorly. So guess what? I know what their hobbies are, I know things about their family, I know what they care about - all so I can ask about whether or not their youngest is doing well in the new school that has better programs for neurodiverse children, and hey how was the grape crop this year do you think you're going to end up with some good wine from it? Because that's how you actually make progress and get things done as a rational adult. That's what civility is about.

There's a huge difference between maintaining a civil tone with someone who can fire you and sucking up to someone you should otherwise be stonewalling. Obviously, we shouldn't be bullying other countries just because we're bigger, but we also should reward behavior like invading neighboring countries unprovoked.