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Cont: Musk, SpaceX and future of Tesla II

JayUtah said:
Ostensibly a living UBI would supplant wages and create a class of buyers.
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In jeremyp's scenario, there would be no wages, because there would be no workers to earn wages. Just a bunch of robots violating conservation laws to do all the "work". Where would the UBI even come from? Arbitrarily-valued fiat currency?

One robot builds a house, another robot prints a coupon good for one house, a third robot gives you the coupon, and a fourth robot takes the coupon from you and registers the house in your name. That's not UBI, that's post-scarcity utopia.
 
theprestige said:
In jeremyp's scenario, there would be no wages, because there would be no workers to earn wages. Just a bunch of robots violating conservation laws to do all the "work". Where would the UBI even come from? Arbitrarily-valued fiat currency?

One robot builds a house, another robot prints a coupon good for one house, a third robot gives you the coupon, and a fourth robot takes the coupon from you and registers the house in your name. That's not UBI, that's post-scarcity utopia.
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i would attribute this to elon musks scenario
 
theprestige said:
Without workers, there aren't wages. Without wages, there aren't buyers. Without buyers, there aren't profits. Without profits, the universal income cannot be paid.
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This is a simplistic scenario. The reality is that, if we are to transition to a society where nobody works and everybody has a universal income, then the companies will have to keep supporting their ex workers either through paying them to do nothing or by being taxed and the government paying them. Of course, there isn't the political will to make it happen, so it won't.
 
theprestige said:
In jeremyp's scenario, there would be no wages, because there would be no workers to earn wages. Just a bunch of robots violating conservation laws to do all the "work". Where would the UBI even come from? Arbitrarily-valued fiat currency?

One robot builds a house, another robot prints a coupon good for one house, a third robot gives you the coupon, and a fourth robot takes the coupon from you and registers the house in your name. That's not UBI, that's post-scarcity utopia.
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It's not my scenario - it's Musk's - and I spent the rest of the post explaining why it will not happen.
 
dirtywick said:
there’s no scenario where nobody works.
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I just don't see any scenario where the Makers v. Takers attitude among billionaires is solved by robots. There is certainly the economic dilemma about what constitutes wealth and value and where they will come from and go to under the new system. But there is also the social attitude that says billionaires (and other kinds of classes of people) are just inherently better than others and thus inherently deserve their social and economic superiority. Elon Musk firmly believes he's a galaxy-brained genius who is the smartest person in every room and therefore fully entitled under the pure meritocracy that is the United States [pause for laughter] to have all the things and make all the decisions. He is the ultimate Maker in a system that should only reward Makers. I fail to see how he really believes in turning everyone into Takers and having that be okay. It is a violation of his fundamental beliefs about class and wealth, however distorted those views may be. He's interested in saving the world only if he gets to be the one to save it and if everyone treats him like their savior and pays him for it.
 
The gratifying part of being a billionaire is the vast number of people who aren't. Regardless of what criteria you use to draw lines between classes, the overwhelming rule is that those in the favored class inherently deserve the rewards of being in it because those rewards were earned and not bestowed. Those who didn't grind appropriately should not enjoy any such benefits. Under that rubric, billionaires exist because there is a pure, universally-accessible meritocracy that allows for and competitively creates billionaires, and that those who made it did so because they diligently exercised the meritorious principles that got them there and are just inherently better competitors. Your CEO earns 400 times more than you do because he works 400 times as hard and is 400 times smarter, not because he benefits from institutional wealth and privilege.

Elon Musk's enormous wealth is proof in his eyes that he's the superhuman he believes himself to be. All the fraud stuff—including petty nonsense like paying people to grind his video games for him—is in support of the illusion that he's the righteous product of a legitimate meritocracy. His cars are the best, his rockets are the best, his brain implants are the best, and his robots are the best because he's the best and he applied himself in a system that rewards only hard work and intelligence.

What boggles my mind is how so many people are so willing to buy into this obvious fable. The Vegas hyperloop is a bunch of people driving COTS Teslas along a mile of underground tunnel at 20 mph. But the blinky disco lights are supposed to make it ground-breaking and futuristic in a galaxy-brained genius sort of way. I can understand the part where the billionaires believe themselves to be inherently superior and inherently deserving of untold wealth, power, and privilege. I just fail to see why the people in the outgroup also believe this.
 
yeah it’s interesting to see. there’s never been people this rich and this powerful with access to tech capable of redefining their own realities to so many people. how can you promise to start production on a product next quarter for 6 years straight and still not be doing it and still be taken seriously?

it’s all image and branding.


if you’re interested and have about 5 minutes check out at round 1:19:00 for a cool explanation of how they’ve done what you’re describing, framed from the perspective of comedy podcasting. which might seem crazy but, hear it out
 
As Alfred Pennyworth put it, "Some people just want to watch the world burn." A big problem among the privileged classes (divide them how you will) is that they believe themselves to be impervious to the disasters the engender or allow. Only the undeserving parts of the world will burn. Economic collapse? I'll be okay. Corrupt government? I'll be okay. Social collapse? I'll be okay. This is why such inevitable products as Luigi Mangione and Tyler Robinson (who killed Charlie Kirk) receive such disproportionate panic among the privileged classes. They burst the bubble that says privilege is and ought to remain untouchable, and that any who think otherwise are just somehow pathologically jealous of deserved success.
 
it’s why they turn the comments off. valid criticism is an attack on their free speech. they’re haters, must be deranged with the woke mind virus. cancel culture.
 
JayUtah said:
As Alfred Pennyworth put it, "Some people just want to watch the world burn." A big problem among the privileged classes (divide them how you will) is that they believe themselves to be impervious to the disasters the engender or allow. Only the undeserving parts of the world will burn. Economic collapse? I'll be okay. Corrupt government? I'll be okay. Social collapse? I'll be okay. This is why such inevitable products as Luigi Mangione and Tyler Robinson (who killed Charlie Kirk) receive such disproportionate panic among the privileged classes. They burst the bubble that says privilege is and ought to remain untouchable, and that any who think otherwise are just somehow pathologically jealous of deserved success.
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The sad part is that the wealthy and privileged almost never suffer any tangible damages. What saddens me is how so many underprivileged people buy into the idea it won't affect them. Only those brown people.
 
One of the paradoxes of the right is the supposed love of law and order coupled with the prevailing belief among the privileged classes that rules are for suckers. This goes alongside the notion that might makes right: if you have millions to spend on legal fees, you should be able to skate away from being held accountable to public policy.
 
gabeygoat said:
Ding Dong, the DOGE is dead!
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DOGE under Elon Musk terminated all the government's pro subscriptions to Adobe products. This left them with only the Standard products. Full redaction of PDF files (i.e., actually removing the data) is a pro feature. The Standard version of Adobe Acrobat just visually obscures the rendering of the data. The DOJ's inability to effectively redact the Epstein files has become a problem for the regime. Score another one for Galaxy Brain!
 
JayUtah said:
One of the paradoxes of the right is the supposed love of law and order coupled with the prevailing belief among the privileged classes that rules are for suckers.
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Are you just completely obviously of the massive fraud uncovered in Minnesota?
 
JayUtah said:
The gratifying part of being a billionaire is the vast number of people who aren't. Regardless of what criteria you use to draw lines between classes, the overwhelming rule is that those in the favored class inherently deserve the rewards of being in it because those rewards were earned and not bestowed. Those who didn't grind appropriately should not enjoy any such benefits. Under that rubric, billionaires exist because there is a pure, universally-accessible meritocracy that allows for and competitively creates billionaires, and that those who made it did so because they diligently exercised the meritorious principles that got them there and are just inherently better competitors. Your CEO earns 400 times more than you do because he works 400 times as hard and is 400 times smarter, not because he benefits from institutional wealth and privilege.

Elon Musk's enormous wealth is proof in his eyes that he's the superhuman he believes himself to be. All the fraud stuff—including petty nonsense like paying people to grind his video games for him—is in support of the illusion that he's the righteous product of a legitimate meritocracy. His cars are the best, his rockets are the best, his brain implants are the best, and his robots are the best because he's the best and he applied himself in a system that rewards only hard work and intelligence.

What boggles my mind is how so many people are so willing to buy into this obvious fable. The Vegas hyperloop is a bunch of people driving COTS Teslas along a mile of underground tunnel at 20 mph. But the blinky disco lights are supposed to make it ground-breaking and futuristic in a galaxy-brained genius sort of way. I can understand the part where the billionaires believe themselves to be inherently superior and inherently deserving of untold wealth, power, and privilege. I just fail to see why the people in the outgroup also believe this.
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I may be able to assist...

In voting, there is a cargo cult mentality, often called 'aspirational' voting, where people believe that they will become rich, if they vote for a party, that primarily exists to serve the rich.

People being fans of, and pledging allegience to, billionaires, who only intend to harm them, looks like a similar thing.

By supporting their oppressors, they believe that they will become like their oppressors.

As if they will receive some 'magic' from their heroes, by supporting them.
 
The most dangerous aspect of the SuperRich is that, literally, there is no way for things to get even better them. There is no incentive whatsoever to make The Pie grow for everyone, because that dilutes their share.
They implicitly and explicitly know that they will either lose a lot of their wealth in redistribution or destruction, or have to become warlords of their sovereign domain.
 
JayUtah said:
One of the paradoxes of the right is the supposed love of law and order coupled with the prevailing belief among the privileged classes that rules are for suckers. This goes alongside the notion that might makes right: if you have millions to spend on legal fees, you should be able to skate away from being held accountable to public policy.
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The sad part is that in many cases- that is exactly what DOES happen- but shouldn't....
 
Elon Musk
@elonmusk
Silence of the Lambs was literally about a trans serial killer who wanted to become a woman by wearing their skin …
 
Andy_Ross said:
Elon Musk
@elonmusk
Silence of the Lambs was literally about a trans serial killer who wanted to become a woman by wearing their skin …
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Well spotted, Galaxy Brain. And American Psycho was about a cisgender male serial killer driven by intense narcissism and the emptiness of unbridled obsession over prestige and materialism.
 
The numbers are in for 2025. Did Tesla's vehicle sales 'collapse' as the Musk haters predicted? Not quite. Sales are down 8.6% YoY - not a huge drop, and not unexpected (sales had already flattened in 2024 with a 1.1% decline YoY). The quarterly figures are more illuminating. Q1 and Q2 sales were much lower than 2024 and 2023 (but not 2022) due to being production limited. But Q3 was a record and Q4 was only down due to the EV credit expiring. Not bad considering the increased competition in the EV sector. Stock Titan says:-
The 2025 decline resulted from two factors: Tesla's strategic choice to refresh the Model Y across all four factories simultaneously, and the external headwind of the federal tax credit expiring in September.
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Notice what they are not saying was a factor - people refusing to buy a Tesla because Musk.

OTOH Tesla's battery storage sales went up 113% YoY, so overall they did fine. Unfortunately for the haters, predictions of Tesla's demise were premature. Could still happen though, depending on how well the new products coming online do.

This year the Cybercab and Semi will be released, both of which have the potential for strong sales. The Cybertruck is also finding new international markets, and may even pick up (heh) in the US now that Ford has stopped producing the F-150 Lightning. FSD is now good enough that even skeptics are raving about it, and will probably go fully autonomous in multiple countries during 2026. This alone could dramatically increase Tesla's EV sales.

If there was one product that might be be their undoing it's Optimus, their general purpose autonomous robot. Musk wants to make a million per year, but at present they don't have a 'brain' smart enough to be useful in the wider market. But as others in the industry say 'don't bet against Musk'.

Of course the haters won't accept any of this. They'll still be asserting that Musk is a conman and Tesla is about to collapse throughout this year and the next, breathlessly trumpeting whatever negatively spun news they can find on the company and its products (and if that doesn't work, making up stuff). I expect Musk will continue giving them reasons to foam at the mouth too, at least while Trump's still around. Plenty of entertainment to be had...
 
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a_unique_person said:
The story of Jesus was about an incel emo who was just wanting the whole world to end.
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The story being pushed by Christians yes, but this appears to have been retconned into the Bible after his death. His actions before that suggest he was a filthy communist preaching reditribution of wealth and that come the revolution the rich will burn. It's no wonder they had to change his message for America.
 
Roger Ramjets said:
The numbers are in for 2025. Did Tesla's vehicle sales 'collapse' as the Musk haters predicted? Not quite. Sales are down 8.6% YoY - not a huge drop, and not unexpected (sales had already flattened in 2024 with a 1.1% decline YoY). The quarterly figures are more illuminating. Q1 and Q2 sales were much lower than 2024 and 2023 (but not 2022) due to being production limited. But Q3 was a record and Q4 was only down due to the EV credit expiring. Not bad considering the increased competition in the EV sector. Stock Titan says:-

Notice what they are not saying was a factor - people refusing to buy a Tesla because Musk.

OTOH Tesla's battery storage sales went up 113% YoY, so overall they did fine. Unfortunately for the haters, predictions of Tesla's demise were premature. Could still happen though, depending on how well the new products coming online do.

This year the Cybercab and Semi will be released, both of which have the potential for strong sales. The Cybertruck is also finding new international markets, and may even pick up (heh) in the US now that Ford has stopped producing the F-150 Lightning. FSD is now good enough that even skeptics are raving about it, and will probably go fully autonomous in multiple countries during 2026. This alone could dramatically increase Tesla's EV sales.

If there was one product that might be be their undoing it's Optimus, their general purpose autonomous robot. Musk wants to make a million per year, but at present they don't have a 'brain' smart enough to be useful in the wider market. But as others in the industry say 'don't bet against Musk'.

Of course the haters won't accept any of this. They'll still be asserting that Musk is a conman and Tesla is about to collapse throughout this year and the next, breathlessly trumpeting whatever negatively spun news they can find on the company and its products (and if that doesn't work, making up stuff). I expect Musk will continue giving them reasons to foam at the mouth too, at least while Trump's still around. Plenty of entertainment to be had...
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I'm not sure I would call Musk a con man. Trump is a con man. Musk is more akin to a carnival barker. The corporation stock model of capitalism makes the illusion of success more important than actual success. He sells an illusion. Tesla is a car company with an insane amount of money created by the story and illusion that somehow down the road it will be more than a car company. It's a successful electric car company. I've never said differently. But the question is why and how.it is.
First is its charging network. Undoubtedly the most important reason not only why Tesla is dominant but why rhe EV industry will continue to grow. The second is thar they have slowed the creation of competition in the US. The only real EV market where they are truly dominant anymore.
The lack of Chinese competition in North America. Without which Tesla is still the best EV option. Maybe I'm wrong, but I believe Tesla will collapse. It has more to do with just how long they can convince investors that profit and earnings don't matter. They have been very good at this.
 
i'd call musk a con man. i mean, you can't promise you can do something you can't and have no ability to do in exchange for money and not be a fraud. sorry, but that's very simple.

however, i've never tried to time or predicted tesla's demise. these kind of financial cons can get huge and go on for a very long time, look at madoff. i have hoped for musk and by proxy tesla's failure, mostly by people seeing what's going on and abandoning the con, which is what these kind of con men deserve. and i'll document the failures as they occur. but i can't predict the future.
 
dirtywick said:
however, i've never tried to time or predicted tesla's demise. these kind of financial cons can get huge and go on for a very long time, look at madoff. i have hoped for musk and by proxy tesla's failure, mostly by people seeing what's going on and abandoning the con, which is what these kind of con men deserve. and i'll document the failures as they occur. but i can't predict the future.
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Exactly. Not just Madoff. Remember Enron and Arthur Anderson? The mortgage bubble? The illusion delusion can be far more important than the reality. I give you Christianity. Still around, still profitable, still raking in billions. And still total nonsense.

As long as people believe the story, whatever it is, it will be successful. It hardly matters if it all, that the story is true.
 
10,000 Starships a year!


Elon Musk
@elonmusk
Yes, at massive volume. Maybe as high as 10,000 ships per year.

Quote

SMX 🇺🇸
@iam_smx
SpaceX is going to produce Starships like they're Aeroplanes
With a $250 million Gigabay at Starbase, the company is accelerating Starship production. The 700,000-square-foot facility is designed to manufacture up to 1,000 rockets per year.
 
Andy_Ross said:
10,000 Starships a year!


Elon Musk
@elonmusk
Yes, at massive volume. Maybe as high as 10,000 ships per year.

Quote

SMX 🇺🇸
@iam_smx
SpaceX is going to produce Starships like they're Aeroplanes
With a $250 million Gigabay at Starbase, the company is accelerating Starship production. The 700,000-square-foot facility is designed to manufacture up to 1,000 rockets per year.
Click to expand...
Aeroplanes? Boeing struggles to build a few hundred per year. And starship is supposed to be used over and over. Why do you need a thousand per year?
 
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