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Cont: Transwomen are not women - part XI

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I think if I had appeared on the YouTube channels of the far right including a white supremacist and had appeared
on a photo happily grinning with a holocaust denier, had spoken at a conferences organised by an organisation dedicated to destroying the rights of gays and lesbians in the US then, yes, I would think it reasonable for people to ask me to clarify my position on their views.
 
smartcooky said:
If the data says four out of five, then I have no truck with that. I'm just surprised it is not more given the tiny percentage of people who do become transgender (worldwide, they make up between less than 0.1% and 0.6% of the population).
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And yet to seek this 80% is illegal within conversion therapy law.
Eg wiki:

There is a scientific consensus that conversion therapy is ineffective at changing a person's sexual orientation or gender identity and that it frequently causes significant, long-term psychological harm in individuals who undergo it.
 
Robin said:
I think if I had appeared on the YouTube channels of the far right including a white supremacist and had appeared
on a photo happily grinning with a holocaust denier, had spoken at a conferences organised by an organisation dedicated to destroying the rights of gays and lesbians in the US then, yes, I would think it reasonable for people to ask me to clarify my position on their views.
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Which she does repeatedly, alongside reminding people that she regards best practice as attacking the argument. (My paraphrasing)
 
katy_did said:
It would be entirely reasonable to argue you shouldn't give any publicity to the likes of Gariépy by agreeing to be interviewed by him, but I wouldn't jump from there to assuming she shares his views, no.
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Even a cursory check of Gariépy would have shown up that he is a white supremacist, it wouldn't need any FBI style investigation. He doesn't exactly hide the fact.

Well at least we know her research skills are crap.

Taken alone some of these could have been dismissed. Having a selfie snapped smiling happily with a holocaust denier well maybe he just came up and asked for a selfie. Taking part in a conference organised by a highly cashed up conservative think tank who want to take.away the rights of gays and lesbians in the US, might have been a mistake. Appearing on the YouTube channel of a far right religious organisation.

Taken together there is clearly a pattern.

It is not unreasonable to ask about this pattern and not at all unreasonable to ask her to make herself clear on their positions.
 
Samson said:
And yet to seek this 80% is illegal within conversion therapy law.
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No it isn't. It is part of the recommended approach.

Determining whether a person really is suffering from gender dysphoria is not changing their gender identity. Determining whether or not a person should have medical intervention is not changing their gender identity.
 
Robin said:
No it isn't. It is part of the recommended approach.

Determining whether a person really is suffering from gender dysphoria is not changing their gender identity. Determining whether or not a person should have medical intervention is not changing their gender identity.
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My point is that conflating orientation and gender into one legal solution is where the catastrophe of medication and mutilation becomes encouraged.
 
This is such an obvious (and obviously silly) derailing tactic. Instead of "Here's what Keen-Minshull said and here's why it's incorrect and/or immoral" we're chasing rabbits down holes about whom she's been seen with and whether they must therefore support the same ideas.

Anyone who's ever done any activism knows that sometimes people on the right have to deal with support from the far right and people on the left have to deal with support from the far left. Communist Party USA supported Hillary Clinton in 2016, but she was clever enough to focus on defeating her opposition rather than berating her supporters.

Sent from my SM-G996U using Tapatalk
 
d4m10n said:
This is such an obvious (and obviously silly) derailing tactic. Instead of "Here's what Keen-Minshull said and here's why it's incorrect and/or immoral" we're chasing rabbits down holes about whom she's been seen with and whether they must therefore support the same ideas.

Anyone who's ever done any activism knows that sometimes people on the right have to deal with support from the far right and people on the left have to deal with support from the far left. Communist Party USA supported Hillary Clinton in 2016, but she was clever enough to focus on defeating her opposition rather than berating her supporters.

Sent from my SM-G996U using Tapatalk
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As mentioned upthread, the Communist Party of Britain has come out against gender self-ID and for sex to be defined as biological sex in the Equality Act.

This must be confusing many people.
 
d4m10n said:
This is such an obvious (and obviously silly) derailing tactic. Instead of "Here's what Keen-Minshull said and here's why it's incorrect and/or immoral" we're chasing rabbits down holes about whom she's been seen with and whether they must therefore support the same ideas.

Anyone who's ever done any activism knows that sometimes people on the right have to deal with support from the far right and people on the left have to deal with support from the far left. Communist Party USA supported Hillary Clinton in 2016, but she was clever enough to focus on defeating her opposition rather than berating her supporters.
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How did that work out for her?


Look, I am totally against the idea of trans women using female toilets, and trans men using men's toilets. For me, the answer is simple. You have women's, men's and unisex toilets, then you can cater for everyone and every person can have their safe space. Same applies to sports. ALL sports should have men's and women's divisions based on biological sex at birth (with arbitrated decisions for edge cases like Caster Semenya) and an open division that anyone (including transitioned people) can compete in. These are simple, straightforward, easy to implement solutions.

But what I object to is the way TERFs like Posie Parker go about what they do. They are not just opposed to trans women using female toilets and other safe spaces, they are totally against trans people's right to even exist. They are opposed to the very idea that that a man or a woman can live as the opposite gender. They want people who feel they are the opposition gender to which they were born to just buck up and get over it. They have little if any understanding that human feelings and human psychology do not work the way they want them to.


Its is hardly surprising that trans people react badly and become agitated and aggressive when their very existence, their very lives are threatened by the actions of people like Parker, and the extremists who support her and attend her rallies.
 
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d4m10n said:
This is such an obvious (and obviously silly) derailing tactic. Instead of "Here's what Keen-Minshull said and here's why it's incorrect and/or immoral" we're chasing rabbits down holes about whom she's been seen with and whether they must therefore support the same ideas.

Anyone who's ever done any activism knows that sometimes people on the right have to deal with support from the far right and people on the left have to deal with support from the far left. Communist Party USA supported Hillary Clinton in 2016, but she was clever enough to focus on defeating her opposition rather than berating her supporters.

Sent from my SM-G996U using Tapatalk
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If she had recently spoken at an event organised by the Communist Party, been on podcasts of extreme Marxists, been photographed smiling happily with someone who claimed Stalin was framed and people turned up at her rallies singing The Red Flag then I guess she might have to spend a little time distancing herself from them. And I guess Fox News wouldn't have been exactly silent about these things.
 
Robin said:
Why, exactly, would it be confusing for anyone?
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Because it is the most common sense document, and communists are normally disparaged.
Confusing because most people would skip to the more main stream political narratives and miss that the communist party care about the fake ideology of gender obsessives, and that the traditional left have gone off the rails.
 
Robin said:
If she had recently spoken at an event organised by the Communist Party, been on podcasts of extreme Marxists, been photographed smiling happily with someone who claimed Stalin was framed and people turned up at her rallies singing The Red Flag then I guess she might have to spend a little time distancing herself from them. And I guess Fox News wouldn't have been exactly silent about these things.
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Also, if Clinton had appeared on the podcasts of people who were openly extreme anti-democratic Marxists and said afterwards "Oh, I didn't realise" do you think anyone anywhere would have believed her? Or taken her even slightly seriously afterwards?
 
Robin said:
Why, exactly, would it be confusing for anyone?
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Because some people only seem to be able to think about things at the most basic, dumbed-down, simplistic level. In the US, this takes the form of conflating gender critical views (which in the UK are mostly held by moderate or left-leaning, non-religious people) with religious conservative views, because both of them are critical of replacing sex with gender identity and because they sometimes are seen associating.

Understanding the difference between being opposed to gender non-conformity (religious conservatives) versus being opposed to re-defining gender non-conformity as 'being a gender other than that assigned at birth' (gender-critical) seems to be beyond their processing capacity, even though these positions are not even remotely similar but are actually in complete opposition. Having an extreme left-wing party also be gender critical might completely confound them.

ETA: re-phrasing in case I wasn't quite clear. Activists, especially in the US, depend a lot on conflating gender critical with conservative views. They are less successful in the UK because we don't have the same political set up. In any case, while this is sometimes due to being thick, in most cases it's strategic. They don't care if it's true or not, as long as it's politically expedient and make them feel morally superior.
 
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Incidentally, here is Gariépy's Wikipedia entry as it was around the time Keen-Minshull appeared on his podcast:

Jean-François Gariépy (also known as JF or JFG) is a Canadian neuroscientist[5] and white nationalist[6] YouTube personality.[7][8] Identified with the alt-right, he has featured on his channel far-right and white nationalist personalities including David Duke,[9][10] Jim Goad,[11] Greg Johnson,[12] Paul Ray "RamZPaul" Ramsey,[13] Shiva Ayyadurai,[14] Kevin B. MacDonald,[15] Nick Fuentes,[16][17] James Allsup,[18] Mark Collett,[19] and Richard B. Spencer.[20]

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Jean-François_Gariépy&oldid=861656884
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There are a few edits throughout 2019, but the "white nationalist" part or "calling for a white ethno-state" and the association with the far right seems to be always there.

I am wondering if anyone actually believes she didn't know he was a white nationalist when she went on.
 
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Robin said:
Also, if Clinton had appeared on the podcasts of people who were openly extreme anti-democratic Marxists and said afterwards "Oh, I didn't realise" do you think anyone anywhere would have believed her? Or taken her even slightly seriously afterwards?
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That's exactly what happened with Obama.
 
Robin said:
Also, if Clinton had appeared on the podcasts of people who were openly extreme anti-democratic Marxists and said afterwards "Oh, I didn't realise" do you think anyone anywhere would have believed her? Or taken her even slightly seriously afterwards?
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A candidate for president might be more cautious than a mother of 4 advocating that her daughters are not likely to confront a naked biological male in the female changing rooms.
Or more particularly that it could happen only if an offence were being committed by said male, with the appropriate criminal redress options.
 
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