Cont: Transwomen are not women - part XI

[katy_did]

Even a cursory check of Gariépy would have shown up that he is a white supremacist, it wouldn't need any FBI style investigation. He doesn't exactly hide the fact.

Well at least we know her research skills are crap.

Taken alone some of these could have been dismissed. Having a selfie snapped smiling happily with a holocaust denier well maybe he just came up and asked for a selfie. Taking part in a conference organised by a highly cashed up conservative think tank who want to take.away the rights of gays and lesbians in the US, might have been a mistake. Appearing on the YouTube channel of a far right religious organisation.

Taken together there is clearly a pattern.

It is not unreasonable to ask about this pattern and not at all unreasonable to ask her to make herself clear on their positions.

I agree, it's entirely reasonable to ask her to clarify her views (which she has done). It would also be reasonable to disagree with her strategy of talking to anybody regardless of their views and their history (and many on the gender critical side do disagree with her approach).

What I don't think is reasonable is to prevent her from speaking on those grounds. All the more so because the justification for silencing her seems based much more on who she associates with rather than anything she herself says.

I disagree with pretty much everything Nigel Farage says and stands for, but if an angry, aggressive mob behaved towards him and a group of peaceful supporters as they did towards Keen and hers, I would be just as outraged. I can't help wondering if the same is true of some of those arguing that the mob behaviour in Auckland was just "free speech" - whether they'd be quite so dismissive if a mob of aggressive, violent Farage supporters made it their business to shut down any trans rights event. I suspect not, and that the exact same behaviour would've been portrayed very differently had it come from a different group

Having said all that, Keen has openly said that one of the reasons she holds these events and films them is to expose the behaviour of the trans activists, so from that point of view she was extremely successful. So perhaps I shouldn't feel too outraged on her behalf. I think the protesters gave her precisely what she wanted.

 

[katy_did]

By the way, I have been watching out for the Auckland video where the man punches a woman to see when it is featured on Fox News or Sky News Australia or one of the media you would expect to run it. I didn't see it.

Did I miss it? Was it actually from that Auckland rally?

Does anyone have any follow up details about it when and where it was reported to the police. Did anyone approach the police to comment on it?

I am beginning to think that this was one of these hoaxed that the right are always perpetrating.

But I am willing to be shown I am wrong.

I take it you've seen the latest footage of that assault, which shows the protesters breaking down the barriers separating them from those at the LWS event, while another of their number removes a smaller barrier just in front. The crowd then moves through the barriers towards the women listening to the event, and the older woman, who along with others appears to be trying to usher them back, is attacked and punched by a man who looks to be in his twenties.

I've seen no suggestion anywhere that the footage is fake or from another event. The twitterer at the above link has plenty of other footage from the same event, including these scenes from before the barriers were broken down.

Why no one has been charged and why the media haven't covered it are indeed interesting questions.

 

[Elaedith]

I take it you've seen the latest footage of that assault, which shows the protesters breaking down the barriers separating them from those at the LWS event, while another of their number removes a smaller barrier just in front. The crowd then moves through the barriers towards the women listening to the event, and the older woman, who along with others appears to be trying to usher them back, is attacked and punched by a man who looks to be in his twenties.

I've seen no suggestion anywhere that the footage is fake or from another event. The twitterer at the above link has plenty of other footage from the same event, including these scenes from before the barriers were broken down.

Why no one has been charged and why the media haven't covered it are indeed interesting questions.

It is reported the woman apparently had a fractured skull (though I have no way to confirm that). This could easily have been fatal for a woman in her 70s.

 

[Matthew Best]

Please tell me you are not so naive that you think people like Parker would ever actually say anything in public that could then be quoted against them. Even Hitler never actually stated in public that his plan was to exterminate all European Jews.

These people speak in code so that they can have plausible deniability.

OK, then what did she say in code that translates to trans people should not have the right to even exist?

 

[smartcooky]

OK, then what did she say in code that translates to trans people should not have the right to even exist?

Everything she says about trans people screams her hatred of them. That is why they, as well as ordinary folks, bith men and women, and other memebrs of the LGBTQ community show up to her far-right supported rallies to shout her down.

Trans people hear and understand her words, and so do many others, including me. If you can't hear and understand, then I can only suggest that you are deaf - either selectively, or because you are naive.

 

[Samson]

Everything she says about trans people screams her hatred of them. That is why they, as well as ordinary folks, bith men and women, and other memebrs of the LGBTQ community show up to her far-right supported rallies to shout her down.

Trans people hear and understand her words, and so do many others, including me. If you can't hear and understand, then I can only suggest that you are deaf - either selectively, or because you are naive.

This is not what I hear.
We are from the same country, yet our perception of what this woman stands for are antithetical.
Fascinating.

 

[Robin]

I take it you've seen the latest footage of that assault, which shows the protesters breaking down the barriers separating them from those at the LWS event, while another of their number removes a smaller barrier just in front. The crowd then moves through the barriers towards the women listening to the event, and the older woman, who along with others appears to be trying to usher them back, is attacked and punched by a man who looks to be in his twenties.

I've seen no suggestion anywhere that the footage is fake or from another event. The twitterer at the above link has plenty of other footage from the same event, including these scenes from before the barriers were broken down.

Why no one has been charged and why the media haven't covered it are indeed interesting questions.

I hadn't seen that thanks and from this angle it is definitely the Auckland rally.

The question was not so much why didn't the media in general cover it as why didn't Fox News or Sky News in particular cover it as it is right down their alley.

As for why no-one was charged, I don't know when and where it was reported to the police yet.

I'd definitely like to know more about this.

She doesn't seem to be as much ushering them back as running headlong into them. Not that this is an excuse for attacking her.

 

[Elaedith]

I hadn't seen that thanks and from this angle it is definitely the Auckland rally.

The question was not so much why didn't the media in general cover it as why didn't Fox News or Sky News in particular cover it as it is right down their alley.

As for why no-one was charged, I don't know when and where it was reported to the police yet.

I'd definitely like to know more about this.

People have definitely reported it to the police, along with clear photos of the person's face (there are clear photos from other parts of the protest that are identifiable as the same person by clothing, hair etc).

 

[d4m10n]

OK, then what did she say in code that translates to trans people should not have the right to even exist?

Everything she says about trans people screams her hatred of them.

I hate the folks at MAGA rallies who shout epithets at the reporters in the press box, but I wouldn't go so far as to say these red-hatted buffoons have no right to exist. I find it fascinating that you made this leap without even stopping to think about what it says about your own stance on how we should deal with our own sense of outrage.

Even Hitler never actually stated in public that his plan was to exterminate all European Jews.

Whether he openly foreshadowed European genocide is a matter of some scholarly debate.

"Who, after all, speaks today of the annihilation of the Armenians?"

No doubt Keen-Minshull has said similarly genocidal things, we're just waiting for the docs to drop.

 

[Emily's Cat]

In spades.

Destiny is not just homophobic and sexist, it is also anti-vax, anti-democracy and scams its members of millions of dollars.

Links to Destiny make links to Nazis look mild.

I can't find any actual evidence that Keen intentionally allied with Destiny Church. All I can find is an acknowledgement from Destiny Church that their offer to join forces with Keen was declined.

 

[Emily's Cat]

I've heard her speak out against them repeatedly, just one example here:



I guess we can safely assume now that objections to Keen are not about anything she herself has said - as nothing is ever mentioned - but rather about who she supposedly aligns herself with. That gets a bit complicated when she's allegedly a homophobe yet frequently has gay women to speak at her events.

The TRA protesters should absolutely carry on though - they don't realize they're making Keen's point for her every time their aggressive, violent behaviour prevent her (and anyone else who disagrees with them) from speaking. Who are the fascists again?

I know that Keen has spoken against nazis as well as far-right groups on multiple occasions.

I get the impression that this is irrelevant to the views held by some people. As far as I can tell, their view is "if anybody from a far-right group agrees at all, then the speaker should immediately shut up and concede that they're completely wrong" because reasons, I guess.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Taken alone some of these could have been dismissed. Having a selfie snapped smiling happily with a holocaust denier well maybe he just came up and asked for a selfie. Taking part in a conference organised by a highly cashed up conservative think tank who want to take.away the rights of gays and lesbians in the US, might have been a mistake. Appearing on the YouTube channel of a far right religious organisation.

Does your opprobrium also extend to say... Scottish politicans who happily take part in photos with people carrying signs calling for violence against females?

Or is this a special kind of expectation that is only placed on people you disagree with or find distasteful?

 

[Emily's Cat]

No it isn't. It is part of the recommended approach.

In what country, and using what guidelines? Because it sure as hell isn't part of WPATH's guidelines.

Determining whether a person really is suffering from gender dysphoria is not changing their gender identity. Determining whether or not a person should have medical intervention is not changing their gender identity.

You'll have to take that one up with LondonJohn. You two can get together and decide what the "experts" that you imagine have to say about it.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Look, I am totally against the idea of trans women using female toilets, and trans men using men's toilets. For me, the answer is simple. You have women's, men's and unisex toilets, then you can cater for everyone and every person can have their safe space. Same applies to sports. ALL sports should have men's and women's divisions based on biological sex at birth (with arbitrated decisions for edge cases like Caster Semenya) and an open division that anyone (including transitioned people) can compete in. These are simple, straightforward, easy to implement solutions.

But what I object to is the way TERFs like Posie Parker go about what they do. They are not just opposed to trans women using female toilets and other safe spaces, they are totally against trans people's right to even exist. They are opposed to the very idea that that a man or a woman can live as the opposite gender. They want people who feel they are the opposition gender to which they were born to just buck up and get over it. They have little if any understanding that human feelings and human psychology do not work the way they want them to.

I am genuinely curious how you get from your staunch TERF position in your first paragraph, to denigrating people (well, specifically female people, but who's counting) who hold the same view as you and speak out publicly about it.

What exactly do you think supports your inference that Keen is opposed to trans people existing at all? Because that is not something I've seen proposed or put forth by ANY of the gender critical female speakers that have been vilified, both in this thread and throughout the broader social media world.

 

[Emily's Cat]

I have spoken to many people with views diametrically opposed to mine. If those views are dangerous and extremist then I talk about the dangerous extremist views with them, not some other thing that we might agree with.

Lol, I have doubts that your hypothesis by principle would actually hold in real life.

Let's take an illustrative scenario and play it out.

Robin: "This school policy that all children have to wear badges stating their religious faith is stupid and dangerous.

Neighborhood Islamic Extremis: " Agree, this is a horrible idea that will result in many children being bullied or attacked, and it's a violation of civil rights."

Robin: "Now, now, let's not get all caught up talking about this thing that we agree on within the context of a thing happening right this moment that directly affects us. Instead, I want to berate you about your Islamic Extremism instead!"

 

[Emily's Cat]

They knew each other and worked on a couple of organisations in common. He was once invited to a wedding to which Ayers was also invited. I can see nothing that suggests a friendly relationship.

Worked on organizations in common, went to the same social events - nothing at all suggesting a friendly relationship.

Keen, on the other hand, got INTERVIEWED by this guy, so obviously they're best friends!

I honestly don't understand what yardstick you're using to measure these things. Is it made out of taffy, by chance?

 

[Emily's Cat]

It's hardly a derail to ask if the gender critical side of the debate is being hijacked by right wing elements for purposes that have nothing to do with trans rights or women's rights or even purposes that are inimical to women's rights.

This is what we found out in the gay rights movement. Not everyone who was campaigning with us or offering help was a friend or someone who we should be associated with. The Socialist Workers Party at the relatively harmless end of that scale.

And yet... the running theme seems to be that because the gender critical movement ends up with some idiotic far-right people showing up... that means that the gender critical side needs to stop speaking altogether, otherwise they're tacitly agreeing to all of the beliefs held by those far right looney tunes.

Why do you use different criteria and different metrics?

 

[Emily's Cat]

By the way, I have been watching out for the Auckland video where the man punches a woman to see when it is featured on Fox News or Sky News Australia or one of the media you would expect to run it. I didn't see it.

Did I miss it? Was it actually from that Auckland rally?

Does anyone have any follow up details about it when and where it was reported to the police. Did anyone approach the police to comment on it?

I am beginning to think that this was one of these hoaxed that the right are always perpetrating.

But I am willing to be shown I am wrong.

There are several videos of it available.
https://twitter.com/EdgeWatching/status/1640946923950489602

Are you seriously taking the position that if your preferred news outlet doesn't show it, it's made up?

Maybe you should try asking those news outlets why they haven't covered it.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Please tell me you are not so naive that you think people like Parker would ever actually say anything in public that could then be quoted against them. Even Hitler never actually stated in public that his plan was to exterminate all European Jews.

These people speak in code so that they can have plausible deniability.

Or, you know, perhaps you're using this as a cheap way to rub your own interpretation on them with no actual evidence or support.

"Well, I know they said they don't support white supremacy, but see, that's code that means that they actually do support white supremacy!"

 

[Emily's Cat]

Everything she says about trans people screams her hatred of them. That is why they, as well as ordinary folks, bith men and women, and other memebrs of the LGBTQ community show up to her far-right supported rallies to shout her down.

Such as? Can you provide some quotes as well as the decoding of them for us? That would be helpful. Otherwise all we have is your say-so that she's speaking in a super-secret code language from opposite land.

Trans people hear and understand her words, and so do many others, including me. If you can't hear and understand, then I can only suggest that you are deaf - either selectively, or because you are naive.

Alternatively, I could just as easily assume that you're hearing whatever you've been told to hear, and are incapable of actual reasoning and comprehension.

But that wouldn't be productive.

So again, how about you provide some quotes of Keen's as well as providing the translation of the super-secret code language that is being used, but which you and all transgender identified people have learned to speak?

While you're at it, how about translating the beneficent intent of such slogans as "Decaptitate TERFS" and "TERFS can suck my huge cock" and "Punch a TERF". I'm really interested in getting a better understanding of what those actually for realsies mean.