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Cont: Transwomen are not women - part XI

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Emily's Cat said:
I am genuinely curious how you get from your staunch TERF position in your first paragraph,
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Its not a TERF position, its simple commonsense.

1. Toilets are supposed to be private places, and I can fully understand why most women would feel very uncomfortable with an unknown, biological male in the near vicinity, while they are sitting down with their knickers down around their ankles.

2. People have worked hard to have the world take women's sport seriously - if you start having biological men showing up playing in women's sport, those sports will lose their credibility - some already have.

https://www.foxsports.com.au/more-s...r/news-story/92986fdec0b7e855b8b6f6271d938e8d

Emily's Cat said:
to denigrating people (well, specifically female people, but who's counting) who hold the same view as you and speak out publicly about it.
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Just because I hold the similar views as someone does not mean I would not be totally against they way they go about expressing their views.

For example, I am 100% a supporter of Elon Musk's SpaceX and Telsa and his long term goals for them, but I do wish Musk would shut the **** up about politics.

Emily's Cat said:
What exactly do you think supports your inference that Keen is opposed to trans people existing at all? Because that is not something I've seen proposed or put forth by ANY of the gender critical female speakers that have been vilified, both in this thread and throughout the broader social media world.
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Well for a start, one of her key speakers quoted Hitler's Mein Kampf as she compared the very idea that any male could even feel they they are the wrong gender by using "The Big Lie".

I know about language, and I know that this [gestures to counter-protesters] is based on something that we call the big lie.

“Do you know the big lie? The big lie was first described by Adolf Hitler in Mein Kampf.

“The big lie is such a big lie that ordinary people like us think, ‘Well, that can’t be a lie because I would never tell such a big lie as that. We only lie in small ways.’

“The big lie, well there is one big lie going on, and it was begun by men in the early part of the 20th century. It began when they had an erotic fantasy and they decided they were going to sell us the big lie – and what is the big lie?

“The big lie is that trans women are women. But they’re not are they? They’re men and we know that.”​

Parker did not contradict her own speaker at her own rally.
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Posie may be an imperfect vessel, I don't know, not having heard of her until this thread. But the treatment that has been accorded JK Rowling (and even to people who dared defend her even tepidly) makes it plain that the trans activist crowd would not respond better to someone less confrontational, someone who had only been interviewed by acceptable people.

Also I am a little amused at this whole "denying people's existence" thing. Unless you are talking about some chatbot, it would be foolish to deny people's existence. If you are talking about denying that they are a woman born a man or a man born a woman, yes, pretty much I deny it. I can feel sympathy and would be chill, but that's about the extent of it.
 
smartcooky said:
Its not a TERF position, its simple commonsense.

1. Toilets are supposed to be private places, and I can fully understand why most women would feel very uncomfortable with an unknown, biological male in the near vicinity, while they are sitting down with their knickers down around their ankles.

2. People have worked hard to have the world take women's sport seriously - if you start having biological men showing up playing in women's sport, those sports will lose their credibility - some already have.

https://www.foxsports.com.au/more-s...r/news-story/92986fdec0b7e855b8b6f6271d938e8d
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I do suggest that you not start voicing those opinions, or you'll be the next one tarred and feathered by the TA mob.

That said, it was oafish of the one speaker to use Hitler's argument as a template, even more so to credit him as having come up with the concept of what she was about to talk about.

I've heard many people talk about some "Big Lie" or another and never realized the connection. I wonder how many in the media who use that term to refer to Trump's claim to have won the 2020 election know they're paraphrasing Adolf.
 
smartcooky said:
Its not a TERF position, its simple commonsense.
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You say that like those things are mutually exclusive.

Well for a start, one of her key speakers quoted Hitler's Mein Kampf as she compared the very idea that any male could even feel they they are the wrong gender by using "The Big Lie".
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Well, no. According to what you quoted, that's not what she compared it to.

“The big lie is that trans women are women. But they’re not are they? They’re men and we know that.”
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Feeling like you were born the wrong gender is not actually an equivalent statement to transwomen are women. There's a second required step there: that after feeling that you're the wrong gender, you can actually become the opposite sex. Do you think that's true? If so, then you don't think it's a lie. If not, then you agree that it's a lie. How big it is, well, that's always going to be a matter of opinion.

Lastly, I will note that in my experience, most people who reference Hitler's comments about a "big lie" don't do so approvingly of Hitler. Rather, he's often referenced as someone who used a big lie, and the fact that his big lie carried horrific negative consequences is sort of the point. I'm not really fond of such usage because it's so often just Godwining, but that's a very different problem from actual support for or agreement with Hitler.
 
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smartcooky said:
Its not a TERF position, its simple commonsense.

1. Toilets are supposed to be private places, and I can fully understand why most women would feel very uncomfortable with an unknown, biological male in the near vicinity, while they are sitting down with their knickers down around their ankles.

2. People have worked hard to have the world take women's sport seriously - if you start having biological men showing up playing in women's sport, those sports will lose their credibility - some already have.

https://www.foxsports.com.au/more-s...r/news-story/92986fdec0b7e855b8b6f6271d938e8d
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smartcooky, that is LITERALLY the gender critical position, and one that results in people who hold that view being labeled transphobes... and if they make the unforgiveable mistake of being female, they get labeled "TERF" regardless of whether they have ever even heard of radical feminism.

Genuinely, what you just stated above as common sense (which I agree is simple common sense) would get you tarred and feathered as a transphobe in many internet spaces. It would get you labeled as such by members of this very forum, in this very thread.

The only reason you won't get called a TERF is because you are male.


smartcooky said:
Just because I hold the similar views as someone does not mean I would not be totally against they way they go about expressing their views.

For example, I am 100% a supporter of Elon Musk's SpaceX and Telsa and his long term goals for them, but I do wish Musk would shut the **** up about politics.
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I have no argument with you on that whatsoever. I'll take it a step further, and say I dearly wish that most celebrities would shut the hell up about politics. Because what on earth about being an actor gives one any sort of insight into politics?


smartcooky said:
Well for a start, one of her key speakers quoted Hitler's Mein Kampf as she compared the very idea that any male could even feel they they are the wrong gender by using "The Big Lie".

I know about language, and I know that this [gestures to counter-protesters] is based on something that we call the big lie.

“Do you know the big lie? The big lie was first described by Adolf Hitler in Mein Kampf.

“The big lie is such a big lie that ordinary people like us think, ‘Well, that can’t be a lie because I would never tell such a big lie as that. We only lie in small ways.’

“The big lie, well there is one big lie going on, and it was begun by men in the early part of the 20th century. It began when they had an erotic fantasy and they decided they were going to sell us the big lie – and what is the big lie?

“The big lie is that trans women are women. But they’re not are they? They’re men and we know that.”​

Parker did not contradict her own speaker at her own rally.
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Is your complaint here that a speaker referenced a passage from Mein Kampf, even though contextually they were completely opposed to the sentiment expressed by Hitler? Is it verboten to even acknowledge that the book exists, and that it has some pretty screwed up ideas in it?

I ask, because you are applying guilt by association to Keen on this. Keen is guilty... because one of the speakers at their event referenced Mein Kampf. It seems to be lost on you that the speaker was not at all supportive of Mein Kampf, and that the reference clearly casts the big lie as a bad thing.

I mean, what do you expect Keen to contradict? Do you expect Keen to argue that transwomen ARE LITERALLY WOMEN? They aren't women at all. They are male, they remain male, and an extremely large number of them behave in male-typical fashions rooted in patriarchal dominance on testosterone-fueled aggression.

Why do you think Keen should contradict a speaker whose premise is that the Transgender Activists are force-feeding us a big lie?
 
Ziggurat said:
Lastly, I will note that in my experience, most people who reference Hitler's comments about a "big lie" don't do so approvingly of Hitler.
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For example:



I suppose there are some who will assume the U.S. Army was approvingly quoting Hitler, but I don't think it's a very good assumption.




Sent from my SM-G996U using Tapatalk
 
Brainster said:
I've heard many people talk about some "Big Lie" or another and never realized the connection. I wonder how many in the media who use that term to refer to Trump's claim to have won the 2020 election know they're paraphrasing Adolf.
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I would suggest almost all of them know as using the phrase/idea has been fairly common since WWII. And always with major consequences to the speaker of said words. People might remember back in 1992 when Al Gore (running for VP) brought it up during the VP debates, referring to the techniques the GOP was using, and was promptly attacked and denounced, while Bill Clinton was (obviously) run out of politics for giving a platform to someone who quoted Hitler.
 
smartcooky said:
Its not a TERF position, its simple commonsense.
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It is kind of sad that over the last many years not a single female could come up with the simple commonsense ideas that smartcooky has come up with. This whole thing could have been avoided from the get go.

That is unless TRAs are not interested in trans identified people being forced to use unisex toilets, because their fight isn't over safe spaces, but consider not being able to use the toilet of their preference as denying their basic identity. And that is unless TRAs are not interested in trans identified people being forced into an open division and therefore having their identity denied again. If that is the case then smartcooky's position would be as TERFy as they come.
 
Wayward son2 said:
It is kind of sad that over the last many years not a single female could come up with the simple commonsense ideas that smartcooky has come up with. This whole thing could have been avoided from the get go.

That is unless TRAs are not interested in trans identified people being forced to use unisex toilets, because their fight isn't over safe spaces, but consider not being able to use the toilet of their preference as denying their basic identity. And that is unless TRAs are not interested in trans identified people being forced into an open division and therefore having their identity denied again. If that is the case then smartcooky's position would be as TERFy as they come.
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Exactly. Simple, commonsense solutions like unisex toilets will not work with TRAs.
 
Emily's Cat said:
Are you seriously taking the position that if your preferred news outlet doesn't show it, it's made up?
outlets why they haven't covered it.
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Are you seriously suggesting that you think is what I said??

Are you seriously suggesting that you might think that Fox News is my favourite need outlet?

Could you try to think for at least a few seconds before replying to my comments? Is that really too much to ask?
 
lionking said:
Exactly. Simple, commonsense solutions like unisex toilets will not work with TRAs.
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Which says more about them than the solution.

Quite simply, legislation allowing trans-women to use women's toilets treads all over the rights of women.

Of course, another solution might be for councils to put it all in the too hard basket, and just not have public toilets at all.
 
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To anyone else who is not familiar with Fox News, they are a very conservative station and there editorial line is very negative towards trans rights activists and very supportive of the gender critical activists.

This is the reason I thought it strange that they had not picked up on this incident.
 
smartcooky said:
Which says more about them than the solution.

Quite simply, legislation allowing trans-women to use women's toilets treads all over the rights of women.

Of course, another solution might be for councils to put it all in the too hard basket, and just not have public toilets at all.
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I don't know why anyone thinks that there is an obligation to find a solution that will suit the noisy minority within the minority, rather than the minority as a whole.

I imagine the problem with unisex toilets might be more of a practical one if a facility is already hosting a men's, a women's, a disabled toilet and a family room (which are usually unisex but only available to people with children.

Some places combine the unisex toilet with the disabled one. A bit hard on disabled people though.
 
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Robin said:
I don't know why anyone thinks that there is an obligation to find a solution that will suit the noisy minority within the minority, rather than the minority as a whole.

I imagine the problem with unisex toilets might be more of a practical one if a facility is already hosting a men's, a women's, a disabled toilet and a family room (which are usually unisex but only available to people with children.

Some places combine the unisex toilet with the disabled one. A bit hard on disabled people though.
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What you list are reasonable, practical problems with the use of the additional gender neutral toilets. But those are not the reasons why the option is rarely mentioned in this thread anymore.

It was deemed unacceptable because it denied the identity of trans-women as women. This also applies to locker rooms. In at least a few cases, trans-girls/women were offered private changing areas. This was deemed unacceptable. Instead, it was asserted that anyone uncomfortable could be provided alternative changing space. For example:

Transgender and gender expansive students must be provided access to facilities (restrooms, locker rooms, or changing rooms) consistent with their gender identity asserted at school. A transgender or gender expansive student may not be required to use an alternative facility (e.g., a single-occupancy restroom instead of the locker room) or a facility that conflicts with the student’s gender identity asserted at school. For students who are gender fluid, the school should work with the student to facilitate restroom and locker room access that affirms their identity.

Schools must provide reasonable alternative arrangements for any student who expresses a need or desire for increased privacy. Reasonable alternative arrangements may include a single occupancy restroom, use of a private area, or a separate changing schedule. Alternative arrangements must be made available to students who request them, but must never be forced upon students, nor presented as the only option. Furthermore, any arrangements must be provided in a non-stigmatizing manner that protects student privacy and is not marginalizing or disruptive for the student.
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https://www.schools.nyc.gov/school-life/school-environment/guidelines-on-gender/guidelines-to-support-transgender-and-gender-expansive-students

Also:
Forcing transgender people to use private or separate bathrooms is not the solution.

Offering separate or private bathrooms is a great way to ensure anyone can feel comfortable when they go to the bathroom, whether or not they're transgender. However, private bath*rooms may be unavailable or very inconvenient to access. More importantly, forcing transgender people to use private bathrooms when other people do not have to is isolating and reinforces the idea that transgender people are somehow harmful and should be kept separate from everybody else.
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https://transequality.org/issues/resources/transgender-people-and-bathroom-access

and:
With respect to all restrooms, locker rooms or changing facilities,
students shall have access to facilities that correspond to their gender
identity. Schools may maintain separate restroom, locker room or
changing facilities for male and female students, provided that they
allow all students equal access to facilities that are consistent with
their gender identity. Students, including nonbinary students, should
determine which facilities are consistent with their gender identity.

Any student who is uncomfortable using a shared gender-segregated
facility, regardless of the reason, shall, upon the student’s request, be
provided with a safe and non-stigmatizing alternative. This may include,
for example, addition of a privacy partition or curtain, provision to use
a nearby private restroom or office, or a separate changing schedule.
However, requiring a transgender or gender nonconforming student to use a separate space threatens to publicly identify and stigmatize the student as transgender and should not be done unless requested by a student.Under no circumstances may students be required to use gender-
segregated facilities that are inconsistent with their gender identity.
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https://transequality.org/sites/default/files/GLSEN%20Trans%20Model%20Policy%202016.pdf

The "common sense" positions outlined by SmartCooky are rejected by the trans rights organizations, as far as I can see. Now, I'm not sure how the actual trans community feels about those issues.

This thread is mostly arguing against extremes. Middle ground is rarely recognized.
 
TomB said:
The "common sense" positions outlined by SmartCooky are rejected by the trans rights organizations, as far as I can see. Now, I'm not sure how the actual trans community feels about those issues.

This thread is mostly arguing against extremes. Middle ground is rarely recognized.
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Of course it is only a minority of the minority who will reject - most trans-women would be happy to use "neutral gender" facilities, that the minority of the minority are trying to leverage this issue - to force biologically female women who are NOT trans-gender to use the same toilets as them, to make a wider point about their acceptance. That another thing that tells you a lot about them.

Perhaps the only real answer is to remove ALL gender specific public toilets, and turn them into individual "unisex" units.
 
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