The sinking of MS Estonia: Case Reopened Part VII

[Vixen]

Can you show us where he listed the survivors he spoke to?
We only have your words on this so far.

These are the six main survivors whose stories are told by Nelson.

 

[JayUtah]

See upthread.

See upthread for the objections, questions, and rebuttals that ensued.

He acknowledges the help of Valeria Kasper, an Estonian filmmaker, and speaking to six survivors personally.

Which one of those is the source of the claims that Voronin weighed 245 pounds, was grossly overweight, and was otherwise infirm?

These would include ... the Voronin contact, presumably Vassili.

Who is presuming this?

Yes, it is Vashya (nickname) who does all the quoting.

Which of the quotes attributed to Vashya is the source for the claim that Voronin weighed 245 pounds, was grossly overweight, and was otherwise infirm?

For example, 'It's like a roller coaster!' and stuff like that. And 'Get dressed quick!' Nobody else is quoted.

These may be quotes from Vashya, but they are not relevant to the claims regarding Voronin's physical description and health. Which of Nelson's sources is the ultimate source of the claim you are lightly attributing to Nelson?

 

[junkshop]

See upthread. He acknowledges the help of Valeria Kasper, an Estonian filmmaker, and speaking to six survivors personally.

These would include Paul Barney, Sara Hedrenius, Kent Harstedt, Tom Johnson, Mikael Oün and the Voronin contact, presumably Vassili. Yes, it is Vashya (nickname) who does all the quoting. For example, 'It's like a roller coaster!' and stuff like that. And 'Get dressed quick!' Nobody else is quoted.

Inadequate and slippery response.
Quotation and citation please, in full (including any information Nelson gives about how he came by this information) of Nelson describing Voronin as weighing 245lbs, as you have repeatedly claimed that he does.

 

[Vixen]

Do you have any evidence that the rejection was unreasonable?

Meister says on p 163 (a hurried Google translate):

In Tallinn, a man went to inform a state authority that it was Am Rebas and none other than Prime Minister Mart Laar himself who had been involved in the smuggling. One organised the ad Fest, the other was given by the then Commander of the Defence Forces, Aleksander Einsein, the former Minister of Defence, and the third turned a blind eye. It can be assumed that in the distribution of income, everyone was nicely from the high military pension of the United States to serve their country of birth, the other left chal. These three men were and are a part of Estonia's independence. The first of them gave up teaching students at the University of Kiel as a professor in the name of the same obligation and <snip>

After getting rid of 40 tons of cobalt from Herotin, Yuri had to grab his mobile phone again: it occurred to him that there were still smuggled goods hidden in two trucks on the ship.

Know-it-all Yuri. No one knows why they were put there, because in the port of Himi the smugglers would have had to fry in their fat for quite a long time, because they came out of the stern. The expensive cobalt with the trucks had to disappear from the board, and there was only one way: to raise the visor, lower the ramp and drive the cars to the sea. However, the attempts at the Svamis failed and it tore off. Soon the ship itself went after it. ~ The Unfinished Logbook AM

You may recall Harry Ruotsalainen had a similar theory, based on the black squares on a sonar print-out. Plus the stern ramp door was also found to be ajar at the top by about 18". He was a military forces chap who went Estonia as an intern to help analyse information. He says he was 18 and saw the printout first hand. Hence, he developed his theory of trucks being despatched to the sea bed.

 

[Vixen]

Inadequate and slippery response.
Quotation and citation please, in full (including any information Nelson gives about how he came by this information) of Nelson describing Voronin as weighing 245lbs, as you have repeatedly claimed that he does.

Nelson literally writes Voronin was 245lbs.

 

[junkshop]

Nelson literally writes Voronin was 245lbs.

Quotation and citation please, in full (including any information Nelson gives about how he came by this information)

 

[JayUtah]

Nelson literally writes Voronin was 245lbs.

Asked and answered. Nelson cannot be the primary source for this fact. What was the primary source?

 

[MarkCorrigan]

Nelson literally writes Voronin was 245lbs.

Prove it. Provide a photo of the quote, or failing that a full citation.

 

[JesseCuster]

Nelson literally writes Voronin was 245lbs.

And what does Jack A Nelson, in Flashes in the Night, "literally write" in regards to Voronin being in advanced poor health, being very unfit, being massively overweight, having suffered previous strokes and heart attacks, etc.

 

[Vixen]

Quotation and citation please, in full (including any information Nelson gives about how he came by this information)

Herewith:

[The pain was so bad he could barely move without scream-] ing and he knew his back must be broken. He told his young son that he probably wouldn't be able to make it, that they should leave him
"I'm not going to abandon you, "Vasya told him.
Around them people lay scattered on the stairs, covered with blood, hysterical, crying, begging for help. Alexander, who weighed 245 pounds, grabbed the banister and pulled himself upward as much as he could, using only one leg. He found the pain unbearable. but with his son pushing from behind and his father-in-law pulling him up by the hand, they made their way upward on the stairways and out onto the seventh deck.
On the outside deck they found a crewman passing out life vests.
The sea was beating at the stricken ship, and the sound of the wind
almost drowned out the sounds of sobbing and cries around them.
Older people stood in the darkness staring at the deck, trying to ignore the huge waves that towered at times above the ship. Many could make no decision, and feared to leave the steady deck for the great troughs and peaks of sea that yawned beyond the railing. Fear had immobilized them.
Darkness seemed to close on the three Voronins as the lights went out. Vasya helped his father put on his life jacket. Then the three stood wondering how they were going to get to a lifeboat. Not far away toward the bow they saw a crowd of people gathered around one of the lifeboats, struggling to get it loose. But the boat would not come loose from its steel bindings. Nevertheless, people clung to it as if it would save them. The Voronins hurried to try to help unloose the boat. Just as they reached it a gigantic wave swept over them, car-rying them all overboard.
Vassili, Alexander, and Vasya found themselves separated when the wave washed them into the sea just before the Estonia went down.
When Alexander rose to the surface, he cried out for his son several [excerpt Jack A Nelson, Flashes in the Night, p 211]

 

[JayUtah]

Meister says on p 163...

I did not ask for a recitation of Meister's claims. I asked for evidence that the claim was rejected unreasonably. You seem to believe that the JAIC rejected this claim improperly. I want to see your evidence for the insinuation of impropriety.

However, the excerpts you provide from Meister are informative. "It can be assumed..." and "No one knows why..." suggest that Meister has little more than idle speculation to support the claim. Further, the claim to raise the bow visor and lower the ramp as a means for disposing of a problematic vehicle is absurd on its face.

An investigation proceeds to a conclusion by considering hypotheses and either supporting or rejecting them according to evidence. A facially absurd hypothesis supported only by assumption and admissions of the absence of evidence are properly rejected.

 

[Vixen]

Asked and answered. Nelson cannot be the primary source for this fact. What was the primary source?

His son, Vassili.

 

[JayUtah]

[obviated]

 

[JesseCuster]

Herewith:

[The pain was so bad he could barely move without scream-] ing and he knew his back must be broken. He told his young son that he probably wouldn't be able to make it, that they should leave him
"I'm not going to abandon you, "Vasya told him.
Around them people lay scattered on the stairs, covered with blood, hysterical, crying, begging for help. Alexander, who weighed 245 pounds, grabbed the banister and pulled himself upward as much as he could, using only one leg. He found the pain unbearable. but with his son pushing from behind and his father-in-law pulling him up by the hand, they made their way upward on the stairways and out onto the seventh deck.
On the outside deck they found a crewman passing out life vests.
The sea was beating at the stricken ship, and the sound of the wind
almost drowned out the sounds of sobbing and cries around them.
Older people stood in the darkness staring at the deck, trying to ignore the huge waves that towered at times above the ship. Many could make no decision, and feared to leave the steady deck for the great troughs and peaks of sea that yawned beyond the railing. Fear had immobilized them.
Darkness seemed to close on the three Voronins as the lights went out. Vasya helped his father put on his life jacket. Then the three stood wondering how they were going to get to a lifeboat. Not far away toward the bow they saw a crowd of people gathered around one of the lifeboats, struggling to get it loose. But the boat would not come loose from its steel bindings. Nevertheless, people clung to it as if it would save them. The Voronins hurried to try to help unloose the boat. Just as they reached it a gigantic wave swept over them, car-rying them all overboard.
Vassili, Alexander, and Vasya found themselves separated when the wave washed them into the sea just before the Estonia went down.
When Alexander rose to the surface, he cried out for his son several [excerpt Jack A Nelson, Flashes in the Night, p 211]

That says nothing about advanced ill health, being massively overweight, having suffered previous heart attacks and strokes, etc.

Also, how does it fit into your narrative? There's nothing here to indicate anything suspicious about Voronin's survival. He made to a lifeboat with the aid of his son and father in law. So what do you think your overall point is here?

Does the book, as accurate and well sourced as you think it is, actually describe Voronin's survival in a way that makes you think there's something fishy or worth investigating about his survival?

 

[JayUtah]

His son, Vassili.

His son speaks elsewhere in that paragraph in connection with events the son allegedly witnessed. Where is it documented that the son is the source for Voronin's weight? Did Nelson actually interview Vassili? You write...

These would include Paul Barney, Sara Hedrenius, Kent Harstedt, Tom Johnson, Mikael Oün and the Voronin contact, presumably Vassili.

You did not answer when I asked you the particulars of the presumption. Do you actually know if Vassili was one of the interviewed sources for Nelson's book?

Yes, it is Vashya (nickname) who does all the quoting. For example, 'It's like a roller coaster!' and stuff like that. And 'Get dressed quick!' Nobody else is quoted.

To be more specific, there are statements in your excerpt that are punctuated as direct quotes and attributed to Vassili. Since you note that the book is more of a romance novel than a historical description, why would you assume that the character speaking in the narrative is necessarily the source?

You don't seem to know exactly who spoke on behalf of the Voronin family to Nelson. And that puts you even farther from knowing what the actual source is for your claims regarding Voronin's weight and health.

 

[junkshop]

Herewith:

[The pain was so bad he could barely move without scream-] ing and he knew his back must be broken. He told his young son that he probably wouldn't be able to make it, that they should leave him
"I'm not going to abandon you, "Vasya told him.
Around them people lay scattered on the stairs, covered with blood, hysterical, crying, begging for help. Alexander, who weighed 245 pounds, grabbed the banister and pulled himself upward as much as he could, using only one leg. He found the pain unbearable. but with his son pushing from behind and his father-in-law pulling him up by the hand, they made their way upward on the stairways and out onto the seventh deck.
On the outside deck they found a crewman passing out life vests.
The sea was beating at the stricken ship, and the sound of the wind
almost drowned out the sounds of sobbing and cries around them.
Older people stood in the darkness staring at the deck, trying to ignore the huge waves that towered at times above the ship. Many could make no decision, and feared to leave the steady deck for the great troughs and peaks of sea that yawned beyond the railing. Fear had immobilized them.
Darkness seemed to close on the three Voronins as the lights went out. Vasya helped his father put on his life jacket. Then the three stood wondering how they were going to get to a lifeboat. Not far away toward the bow they saw a crowd of people gathered around one of the lifeboats, struggling to get it loose. But the boat would not come loose from its steel bindings. Nevertheless, people clung to it as if it would save them. The Voronins hurried to try to help unloose the boat. Just as they reached it a gigantic wave swept over them, car-rying them all overboard.
Vassili, Alexander, and Vasya found themselves separated when the wave washed them into the sea just before the Estonia went down.
When Alexander rose to the surface, he cried out for his son several [excerpt Jack A Nelson, Flashes in the Night, p 211]

At last, thank you. Now, does Nelson provide any information as to how he knew Voronin's weight?

 

[Reformed Offlian]

Yes. And Nokia is Finish. But there were around 1 million cell phone users in Europe. However, there were a thing. I stand corrected. [see how easy that was?]

Cheers. And I don't think it really undermines most of your point, anyway. Even if some people on the Estonia had cell phones, Vixen's ideas are rubbish.

 

[Reformed Offlian]

That says nothing about advanced ill health, being massively overweight, having suffered previous heart attacks and strokes, etc.

Also, how does it fit into your narrative? There's nothing here to indicate anything suspicious about Voronin's survival. He made to a lifeboat with the aid of his son and father in law. So what do you think your overall point is here?

Does the book, as accurate and well sourced as you think it is, actually describe Voronin's survival in a way that makes you think there's something fishy or worth investigating about his survival?

Does it say anything about his briefcase, or his association with the "Kosmos Association"?

 

[JesseCuster]

Does it say anything about his briefcase, or his association with the "Kosmos Association"?

Or him being a staunch Zionist?

 

[EHocking]

…
BTW the bow visor was not visible from the bridge, hence the JAIC recommendation it is constructed nearer, in future.

Aha, ahahahahahaha



You know what’s next. Citation for JAIC recommendation that the bow visor should be constructed nearer the bridge on a RORO ferry