Cont: The sinking of MS Estonia: Case Reopened Part VI

[lobosrul5]

I was pointing out to the poster that GMDSS was nothing new. That the USA had been using GPS since 1973 and that radio communications had been used in the maritime industry for a hundred years. He seemed to think GMDSS was a new standard in 1999, when in fact every passenger ship and other relevant vessel already had been using VHF installments and VHF channels for years. The 1999 IMO GMDSS was simply a harmonization of existing standards. The only thing that was new was the Chapter IV change in regulation that required a trained and fully qualified, certified, inspector on every relevant vessel to ensure conformity with GMDSS standards.

The standards were set in 1988 as per IMO CHAPTER III pursuant to the Herald of Free Enterprise inquiry of 1987 and which stated that all relevant vessels must have free-floating automatic EPIRB's by August 1993.

Highlighted is not true (the first sat wasn't even launched until 1978), underlined is a "duh" statement that I never contradicted.

 

[JayUtah]

That the USA had been using GPS since 1973...

They had not. This is wrong. Admit that you were wrong about this.

The standards were set in 1988 as per IMO CHAPTER III pursuant to the Herald of Free Enterprise inquiry of 1987 and which stated that all relevant vessels must have free-floating automatic EPIRB's by August 1993.

Asked and answered. The regulation makes plain the distinction you're trying so desperately to blur.

 

[Steve]

I am not a CT-er. Never have been.

I have no doubt you actually think this. You seem to be as ignorant about what a conspiracy theorist is as you are about any of the myriad technical aspects of the Estonia sinking that you have commented on here.

 

[zooterkin]

I was pointing out to the poster that GMDSS was nothing new. That the USA had been using GPS since 1973 and that radio communications had been used in the maritime industry for a hundred years. He seemed to think GMDSS was a new standard in 1999, when in fact every passenger ship and other relevant vessel already had been using VHF installments and VHF channels for years. The 1999 IMO GMDSS was simply a harmonization of existing standards. The only thing that was new was the Chapter IV change in regulation that required a trained and fully qualified, certified, inspector on every relevant vessel to ensure conformity with GMDSS standards.

The standards were set in 1988 as per IMO CHAPTER III pursuant to the Herald of Free Enterprise inquiry of 1987 and which stated that all relevant vessels must have free-floating automatic EPIRB's by August 1993.

So, you just pasted the same mistake again. How could the USA be using GPS from 1973 if the first satellite was not launched until 1978? (And the system was not operational for some time after that.)

 

[JayUtah]

I am not a CT-er. Never have been.

On a scale 1-10, how well do you think your gaslighting is working?

 

[Disbelief]

I am not a CT-er. Never have been.

You are and you refuse to acknowledge mistakes, even when explicitly pointed out.

 

[Mojo]

To be honest, I wasn't that concerned at the time, not my branch and by then I was ashore at HMS Excellent

When I were a lad we 'ad to mek do wi' HMS Adequate.

 

[Vixen]

A majority of Finnish historians consider it an alliance. Finland signed the Anti-Comitern pact. They voluntarily allowed German troops in their country with express permission to attack the Soviet Union. They planned operations with them. It was an alliance by any coherent definition of the word 'alliance' . That Finland had justification for attacking the USSR, that they didn't participate in the Holocaust, and they didn't join the war against the West are also, all true statements.

It is far, far more complicated than that. The history of conflict with Russia/USSR goes way back a thousand years when they were then Novgorodians. The Swedish Empire (including Finland) battles go way back to Ivan the Terrible and culminating in Sweden's defeat as a superpower with Peter the Great. The conflict with USSR 1939 - 1944 was a continuation from WWI and the civil war arising from that, which itself arose from the Bolshevik uprising, meant the Finnish Generals (the 'Whites') had a ver close relationship with the German Generals, who helped the whites suppress the reds. Very little to do with being allies of Nazi Germany but everything to do with the German Generals calling in favours from Field Marshall Mannerheim, who had trained with the Imperial Army (the Monarchist's Army) but now it was no more so he was a rabid anti-Communist.

Likewise with MV Estonia, the Estonian crew had mostly trained in St Petersburg/Leningrad and I believe there were definite tensions between the old school Stalinists, still in Estonia (remember, Stalin had moved Russians into the country, making it 25% loyal to the USSR) and Sweden's close links and ties with the USA, both countries desperate to ensure the former Baltic States became western democracies, The smuggling of decommissioned Soviet military nuclear bases - with the former Soviet military not getting their salaries (Putin himself was then a KGB/Stasi agent in East Germany who himself said he bitterly had to work as a cab driver to make ends meet, and when he returned to St Petersburg, he had just £200 and a washing machine [seriously!]) - meant there was conflict between the mafia-style gangs who provided the materiel and the old time loyalists who saw it as treason and tried to stand in its way.

 

[Vixen]

Highlighted is not true (the first sat wasn't even launched until 1978), underlined is a "duh" statement that I never contradicted.

I was going by Google information:

The United States Department of Defense started the GPS project in 1973. The first prototype, called the Block-I GPS satellite, was launched in 1978 from Vandenberg Air Force Base. In 1990 and 1991, the U.S. military relied heavily on GPS during the Gulf War with Operations Desert Shield and Desert Storm.

When Was GPS Invented & Who Is in Charge of It? https://mybaseguide.com/when-was-gps-invented

 

[Mojo]

Not an error. I was the one who read the article. It was my opinion that the correspondent must have had contacts on the German front line to have written it. I am entitled to have an opinion. I don't see how else he got the story.

When you eventually gave a reference that enabled the specific column you were referring to to be identified it turned out that he got it by reading the Essener National Zeitung.

 

[Vixen]

When you eventually gave a reference that enabled the specific column you were referring to to be identified it turned out that he got it by reading the Essener National Zeitung.

So you've found the article?

At least the TIMES correspondent didn't do what the DM hacks do and get their story from Mumsnet or Twitter.

 

[JayUtah]

I was going by Google information:

Which you appear to have read hastily and probably not beyond the first sentence. Will you admit that you were wrong, and that the U.S. was not using GPS since 1973?

And do you really think it's proper for you to try to correct people from things you just hastily Googled?

 

[lobosrul5]

It is far, far more complicated than that. The history of conflict with Russia/USSR goes way back a thousand years when they were then Novgorodians. The Swedish Empire (including Finland) battles go way back to Ivan the Terrible and culminating in Sweden's defeat as a superpower with Peter the Great. The conflict with USSR 1939 - 1944 was a continuation from WWI and the civil war arising from that, which itself arose from the Bolshevik uprising, meant the Finnish Generals (the 'Whites') had a ver close relationship with the German Generals, who helped the whites suppress the reds. Very little to do with being allies of Nazi Germany but everything to do with the German Generals calling in favours from Field Marshall Mannerheim, who had trained with the Imperial Army (the Monarchist's Army) but now it was no more so he was a rabid anti-Communist.

Likewise with MV Estonia, the Estonian crew had mostly trained in St Petersburg/Leningrad and I believe there were definite tensions between the old school Stalinists, still in Estonia (remember, Stalin had moved Russians into the country, making it 25% loyal to the USSR) and Sweden's close links and ties with the USA, both countries desperate to ensure the former Baltic States became western democracies, The smuggling of decommissioned Soviet military nuclear bases - with the former Soviet military not getting their salaries (Putin himself was then a KGB/Stasi agent in East Germany who himself said he bitterly had to work as a cab driver to make ends meet, and when he returned to St Petersburg, he had just £200 and a washing machine [seriously!]) - meant there was conflict between the mafia-style gangs who provided the materiel and the old time loyalists who saw it as treason and tried to stand in its way.

No, it really isn't. You do not need to understand 1000 year histories and relationships to understand that Finland and Nazi Germany were in a military alliance for aprox 3 years during the Continuation War is indeed a fact. It may or may not effect an understanding of Finland's justification for the alliance And good grief I actually understand their justification. The UK etc did not come to their aide in 1939 so how could Finland rely on aide after the Soviets won their war with Germany? An alliance with a bad actor for good purposes is still an alliance.

 

[zooterkin]

I was going by Google information:

Which you apparently were unable to understand.

 

[zooterkin]

So you've found the article?

Do you have memory problems? Because you already responded when this was pointed out.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=14155239#post14155239

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=14155332#post14155332

 

[Dabop]

The modern version...
(sung to I am the very model of a modern Major-General)

I am the very model of a modern Conspiracy Theorist
I've mis-information vegetable, animal, and mineral
I know the Presidents of England, and I can’t quote the fights historical
From Marathon to Waterloo, in disorder categorical
I'm not very well acquainted, too, with matters mathematical
I don’t understand equations, both the simple and quadratical
About every conspiracy theorem I am teeming with a lot of news
With no actual facts of any use

 

[JayUtah]

Trying a new angle?

It's the same angle. You're just trying to shoehorn it back into your broken understanding of the regulations and equipment.

Do you have a specific citation that said passenger ships were categorically exempt from IMO CHAPTER III regulations...

Straw man. Ships that were still allowed to operate under the 1974 SOLAS certification did not have to install immersion-activated EPIRBs until later. This grandfather provision was rescinded after MS Estonia sank. MS Estonia was sailing under the 1974 certification, as noted by JAIC. There was no categorical exemption, but there was an exemption that applied to MS Estonia at the time she foundered.

All ships at the time of MS Estonia's sinking were required to have float-free EPIRBs. As everyone except you is well aware, this describes only the manner in which the EPIRB is released, not the manner in which it is activated. The regulation makes this distinction extremely plain, but you insist on blurring the language.

The fact that you're now carefully wording your challenges to avoid what has already been explained to you would tend to show that you know you're wrong and are just trying to find a wording that avoids admitting error.

In addition, prove that a manually-activated-only buoy is placed in a bracket with an HRU.

It can be, and the manufacturer's specifications were shown to you previously to prove this. This brought MS Estonia into compliance with IMO Chapter 3 as it applied to them at the time under their existing SOLAS certificate.

 

[Mojo]

So you've found the article?

I followed the reference you gave to a date and page number. The only mention of things being said by German soldiers turned out to be in a round-up of German media, quoting what had been printed in a newspaper owned by Hermann Goering. There was nothing whatsoever about Times reporters eavesdropping on soldiers on the German front lines.

 

[Dabop]

dup

 

[P.J. Denyer]

Will you ever admit to a mistake?

Nope. No. Never. Not even possible. Under no circumstances.


If reality & Vixen disagree, then reality had better be ready to write a letter of apology.

Continued

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=368526

Posted By: jimbob