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The sinking of MS Estonia: Case Reopened Part VII

Vixen said:
I am right:

From JAIC Report Section 21: Conclusions, Actions by the crew subsection:

  • The visor could not be seen from the conning position, which the Commission considers a significant contributing factor to the capsize. In all incidents known to the Commission where the visor has opened at sea due to locking device failure, the opening was observed visually from the bridge and the officers of the watch were able quickly to take appropriate action.
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Because the visor can be unlocked but not visible until it is fully open.

The visor on the Estonia didn't fully open it broke off.
 
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Vixen said:
You can always order his book free of charge from your local library* and appraise it for yourself. Maybe, as he taught or teaches at the same Uni as JayUtah, he can be contacted there and asked directly what his sources were.

*ISBN 978-1-934074-21-3 Apprentice House Press, Baltimore, Maryland, 2010.
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you are the one making the claims, you are the one that should support them.
 
Vixen said:
The claim trucks were offloaded refers to the stern car ramp, not the pointy end. In any case, those two Estonian athletes who literally climbed down the car door ramp (stern was already beneath the waves, remember) said they climbed down the car door ramp, so it must have still been shut!
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So the bow door wasn't opened?

Make your mind up.

Which one was supposedly opened?

Why would the bow door be open if they used Eastern, which wasn't open.

We know the ramp was open we can see it in images of the wreck.
 
Incidentally, for the person who mentioned it, re the bridge and engine room knowing if the visor was being opened by looking at their monitor:

  • The position sensors for signal lamps showing locked visor were connected to the side locking bolts in such a way that the lamp on the bridge showed locked visor even after the visor had tumbled into the sea. The indirect information on the status of the visor was thus misleading. The signal lamp for locked ramp was most likely not on because one of the locking bolts was not fully extended. There was thus no lamp warning when the visor had forced the ramp partly open and it was resting inside the visor. Chapter 21 Conclusions, Action by the crew.
 
Vixen said:
I am right:

From JAIC Report Section 21: Conclusions, Actions by the crew subsection:

  • The visor could not be seen from the conning position, which the Commission considers a significant contributing factor to the capsize. In all incidents known to the Commission where the visor has opened at sea due to locking device failure, the opening was observed visually from the bridge and the officers of the watch were able quickly to take appropriate action.
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No, you're wrong, again.

And also again, you're only responding to the latest comment and you've failed to follow the conversation.

To recap for those with memory difficulties:
Vixen said:
According to Andi Meister the story about the cobalt was shut down very quickly by the JAIC. The claim was, Eiseln, an American who used his Estonian ethnicity to take high office in Estonia, had a direct phone line - radio, satellite or otherwise - who supposedly rang up the bridge to order them to dump it as Swedish Customs had been tipped off. Hence the opening of the car ramp. The alternative version was a lucrative cargo of drugs which the gangsters didn't want Customs to get hold of, owing to its street value. Who knows, but Silver Linde did get nine years for drug smuggling some years later. The bow ramp could just as easily been opened by a person or persons, as a 'strong wind' knocking off the entire structure.
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Axxman300 said:
<snip>

Do us a favor and walk us through the process of opening the bow-visor, and lowering the ramp. And then tell us how this would happen without anyone on the bridge noticing the massive visor blocking forward view. Be as detailed as possible.
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Vixen said:
<snip>

BTW the bow visor was not visible from the bridge, hence the JAIC recommendation it is constructed nearer, in future.
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Axxman300 said:
The visor was not visible WHEN CLOSED.

They could see it when open, Exhibit A:
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So you were contending that Eiseln rang up the bridge to order the dumping of drugs (or whatever) by opening the bow ramp. Axxman300 showed that the open visor is clearly visible from the bridge. But you got mixed up (again) between two separate scenarios - deliberate opening vs breaking off in the storm.

Ah, but now you're saying:
Vixen said:
The claim trucks were offloaded refers to the stern car ramp, not the pointy end. In any case, those two Estonian athletes who literally climbed down the car door ramp (stern was already beneath the waves, remember) said they climbed down the car door ramp, so it must have still been shut!
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Once again, your claim are self-debunking. Is it just attention seeking?
 
Vixen said:
The claim trucks were offloaded refers to the stern car ramp, not the pointy end. In any case, those two Estonian athletes who literally climbed down the car door ramp (stern was already beneath the waves, remember) said they climbed down the car door ramp, so it must have still been shut!
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Now it retrospectively refers to the stern. Doesn't save it from being an absolutely preposterous suggestion. We did the climb down the ramp exhaustively before so I have no intention of revisiting other than to note that no it does not mean the ramp must have remained closed.
 
Vixen said:
Try this: look up James Patterson's latest book re The Idaho 4, a quick look at 'view sample' perhaps. Now, you might hate his style of writing but you'll note he has all sorts of quotes from the relatives, friends and colleagues of the murdered victims. Think hard, JesseCuster, think hard. How did Patterson get those quotes when the subjects of his book are (sadly) deceased?
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Is there supposed to be a point in this nonsensical drivel,, other than distracting form your previous nonsensical drivel?
 
Vixen said:
It was attached to a structure on the forefront of the bow, such that when the bow visor detached, it took the whole lot with it, is the theory.
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We can see the damage in the film and photos of the wreck.

It's not a theory, we can see the actual, visible evidence. The visor was recovered and examined.
 
MarkCorrigan said:
Gibberish. They didn't do anything "for a peaceful life". You have no idea how accident investigations work and you're utterly incompetent in all the required fields to check their findings. You have no idea what you're talking about but you keep on talking.
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To be fair to @Vixen there are a vast number of things she doesn't understand but pontificates about:
  • Car park design
  • The testing and properties of reinforced concrete
  • Battery chemistry
  • The flammability of diesel
  • The spread characteristics of diesel
  • Actuarial tables
  • Ship design
  • Maritime safety protocols
  • Radio protocols
  • International relations
  • Journalism
  • Aerospace technology
  • ...........and many, many, more.
 
dorricc0 said:
No, you're wrong, again.

And also again, you're only responding to the latest comment and you've failed to follow the conversation.

To recap for those with memory difficulties:







So you were contending that Eiseln rang up the bridge to order the dumping of drugs (or whatever) by opening the bow ramp. Axxman300 showed that the open visor is clearly visible from the bridge. But you got mixed up (again) between two separate scenarios - deliberate opening vs breaking off in the storm.

Ah, but now you're saying:

Once again, your claim are self-debunking. Is it just attention seeking?
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The claimed truck dumping was from the STERN car ramp, not the bow. However, because the JAIC theory is that the entire bow visor and car ramp door fell off, that was the initial action that commenced the disaster, thanks to a strong wave undermining the design. But nobody has claimed the cargo was offloaded at the front.
 
junkshop said:
Unlikely, as he's been dead for a decade .
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Citation?

Biography​

JACK A. NELSON, Associate Professor, Department of Communications, Brigham Young University, has written at length and broadly in the field of communications and the humanities and in history. He has taught at the California State University at Humboldt and the University of Utah. He has worked as a reporter for the Deseret News in Salt Lake City and since 1981 has served as part-time Utah editor for Western Outdoors Magazine. His doctorate is from the University of Missouri School of Journalism. He has been a paraplegic since the age of 17. https://www.bloomsbury.com/uk/author/jack-nelson-118370/
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