• Quick note - the problem with Youtube videos not embedding on the forum appears to have been fixed, thanks to ZiprHead. If you do still see problems let me know.

Cont: The Sinking of MS Estonia: Case Reopened Part V

Status
Not open for further replies.
Don't you think that is BIUTC*? If you were on the JAIC don't you think it would be your duty to look into it?


*Brushing it under the carpet.

What was brushed under the carpet?

There was no evidence for explosives separating the bow visor.
It was looked in to when the wreck and the parts were examined.
 
Because those are literally the only two options. You've had it explained, at length, why you are wrong when you claim that Sweden disappeared the two Egyptians so the only possible reason for you to still claim that they did so are that you are either deliberately lying or that you are too dense to understand what has been explained to you.

If you can come up with a third option I'd be glad to hear it, but "I'm right" isn't one, because you've been shown the direct words of the treaty you are claiming that Sweden broke that shows that they did not do what you are claiming.

Let's consider two scenarios:

1. A disaster that kills a thousand civilians, including a party of old age pensioners, a group of young mothers, families that include small children and babies in arms, a large group of civilian police officers, staff and crew, who had zero time to evacuate and zero time to arrange rescue.

You would expect: the senior crew to be singled out for interview.

You would expect the captain and his senior crew to be questioned and charged with negligence until such time they can be exonerated.

You would expect the authorities to be champing at the bit to bring the responsible parties to justice.

Facts:

We know the AB watchman and third and fourth engineers together with a newbie engineer all managed to escape from deck 0 and share the same life raft, complete with wallets, survival suits, passports and warm clothing, even as the same time as the IVth senior officers (the system was that there were two captains, each with two senior officers, who took their watches in turn) managed to get out a 'Mayday' call that was heard.

We know that the senior officers who had left the bridge at 0100 for the replacement watch and some entertainment staff and the bar manager, were intially listed as having similarly having survived, and being on the advantageous upper decks and luxury cabins for many of the others who did survive, it seems reasonable to assume some even shared the same life raft. We know Alexander Voronin and his family, who seemed to be sharing with Captain Piht, escaped despite Alexander's severe health problems, a teenage son and an elderly relative escaped OK, so it is reasonable to expect his peers on that deck to also have done so.

National newspapers quote the head of waterways safety administration Stenmark of confirming that Piht had survived and would be interviewed and had been interviewed.

Next the senior officers' names are removed from the survivors list with no explanation at all.


Two cargo plane chartered by a US company leaves Arlanda circa 29.9/30.9.1994, one to Amsterdam one to Maine, USA, listing nine unknown passengers. US Embassy in Stockholm pays the bill issued by Arlanda for this.

2. Fast forward six years. The 9/11 disaster happens. The CIA believe Muslim terrorists are responsible. It issues 'extraordinary rendition' demands to various western states asking for the removal of persons, who may or may not have had terrorists links or sympathies, into their hands. These persons were removed to US controlled zones such as Guantanomo Bay at the request of the CIA of POTUS Bush.

Two of these included two Egyptian asylum seekers in Sweden who were removed as a result of such a request by the CIA in Cairo, it being in the aftermath of 9/11. A US-hired cargo plane was used to remove the two extra-judicially (contravening the 1998 Rome Treaty which establishes the right to a hearing and other human rights).

This action is a near replay of what happened to the Estonia senior crew six year's earlier, if indeed that is what did happen to them.

To simply say, WHO CARES?


You should care.
 
Last edited:
Let's consider two scenarios:

1. A disaster that kills a thousand civilians, including a party of old age pensioners, a group of young mothers, families that include small children and babies in arms, a large group of civilian police officers, staff and crew, who had zero time to evacuate and zero time to arrange rescue.

You would expect: the senior crew to be singled out for interview.

You would expect the captain and his senior crew to be questioned and charged with negligence until such time they can be exonerated.

You would expect the authorities to be champing at the bit to bring the responsible parties to justice.

Facts:

We know the AB watchman and third and fourth engineers together with a newbie engineer all managed to escape from deck 0 and share the same life raft, complete with wallets, survival suits, passports and warm clothing, even as the same time as the IVth senior officers (the system was that there were two captains, each with two senior officers, who took their watches in turn) managed to get out a 'Mayday' call that was heard.

We know that the senior officers who had left the bridge at 0100 for the replacement watch and some entertainment staff and the bar manager, were intially listed as having similarly having survived, and being on the advantageous upper decks and luxury cabins for many of the others who did survive, it seems reasonable to assume some even shared the same life raft. We know Alexander Voronin and his family, who seemed to be sharing with Captain Piht, escaped despite Alexander's severe health problems, a teenage son and an elderly relative escaped OK, so it is reasonable to expect his peers on that deck to also have done so.

National newspapers quote the head of waterways safety administration Stenmark of confirming that Piht had survived and would be interviewed and had been interviewed.

Next the senior officers' names are removed from the survivors list with no explanation at all.


Two cargo plane chartered by a US company leaves Arlanda circa 29.9/30.9.1994, one to Amsterdam one to Maine, USA, listing nine unknown passengers. US Embassy in Stockholm pays the bill issued by Arlanda for this.
Even if the above were true, which I'm not granting you, this has nothing to do with the post you are replying to. It is a non sequitur rant par excellence.

2. Fast forward six years. The 9/11 disaster happens. The CIA believe Muslim terrorists are responsible. It issues 'extraordinary rendition' demands to various western states asking for the removal of persons, who may or may not have had terrorists links or sympathies, into their hands. These persons were removed to US controlled zones such as Guantanomo Bay at the request of the CIA of POTUS Bush.

Two of these included two Egyptian asylum seekers in Sweden who were removed as a result of such a request by the CIA in Cairo, it being in the aftermath of 9/11. A US-hired cargo plane was used to remove the two extra-judicially (contravening the 1998 Rome Treaty which establishes the right to a hearing and other human rights).
No. You are simply wrong. The actions of the US and Swedish governments are not contraventions of the statute against enforced disappearance. You are simply wrong.

This action is a near replay of what happened to the Estonia senior crew six year's earlier, if indeed that is what did happen to them.
It's not even remotely the same, and even if it was you've provided no evidence that the senior crew were disappeared beyond your own fevered imaginings.

To simply say, WHO CARES?


You should care.


Who said I don't care about what happened to the Egyptians? Why are you assuming that because I'm correcting your wrong-headed nonsense about what was done to them that I think it's acceptable?

I ask again, do you know what my avatar is?
 
To call it deportation or repatriation, or even extradition is to downplay the real situation, and as described in the Rome Treaty.

Here's the text of the treaty in Finnish:

https://www.finlex.fi/fi/sopimukset/sopsteksti/2002/20020056/20020056_2

The relevant part is:

(i) "tahdonvastainen katoaminen" tarkoittaa valtion tai poliittisen järjestön toimesta, luvalla, tuella tai suostumuksella tapahtuvaa henkilöiden pidättämistä, vangitsemista tai kaappausta, jota seuraa kieltäytyminen tunnustamasta kyseistä vapaudenriistoa tai antamasta tietoja kyseisten henkilöiden kohtalosta tai olinpaikasta tarkoituksessa evätä heiltä oikeussuoja pitkäksi aikaa.

Now you have seen the official text in a language that you should be able to understand.




(In English this the part is the one going: '"Enforced disappearance of persons" means the arrest , detention or abduction of persons by, or with the
authorization, support or acquiescence of, a State or a political organization, followed by a refusal to acknowledge that deprivation of freedom or to give information on the fate or whereabouts of those persons, with the intention of removing them from the protection of the law for a prolonged period of time')
 
And you know this, how?

Or is that your intuition talking?

Chapters 8, 12 and 15 deal with the inspection of the wreck and the parts.

Further detail of the inspections and tests are included in the supporting documents.

All you have to support the explosives is the paid opinion of two people that haven't examined the parts or visited the wreck.
 
Last edited:
Be that as it may. If you or your firm were accused of being the cause of the deaths of a thousand people and you strongly disputed this, do you not believe that you should have the right to hire your own independent experts as witnesses?

Every firm accused of a major accident has the right to defend itself in the public eye, and to hire people to help it do so. For months, Boeing maintained that the problems with the 737 MAX were pilot error, not their deficient design. However a defense is not an investigation. People know who hires them and what the desired outcome is.

And that you would expect the accident committee to at least consider the findings?

No. An investigative commission is under no obligation to consider a defense proffered by participants in an accident. It is not a court of law, and the commission is not a prosecutor or a judge.
 
Last edited:
To me 'repatriation' is 'sending someone back to their own country'. However, the Egyptian guys were not immigrants, they were registered asylum seekers fleeing torture.

That doesn't stop Egypt from being their home country. People are denied asylum all the time. We all agree that the manner in which the Egyptians were deported was improper. But it's not an enforced disappearance.

To call it deportation or repatriation, or even extradition is to downplay the real situation, and as described in the Rome Treaty.

The real situation as described in the Rome Statute, as regards enforced disappearance, has nothing to do with the facts of the case brought by the Egyptians. You're simply trying very hard to make one offense look like a very much more serious offense. The facts do not agree with you.
 
This action is a near replay of what happened to the Estonia senior crew six year's earlier, if indeed that is what did happen to them.

No. There was no enforced disappearance of two Egyptians from Sweden. There is no evidence of enforced disappearance of MS Estonia's officers. You're trying to drum up a criminal conspiracy on the basis of misrepresentation and conjecture. The argument that this is just what Sweden does is based on nothing stronger than your desire to believe that.

To simply say, WHO CARES?
You should care.

Cart before the horse. Before berating people for not caring that something happened, you first have to prove that it happened.
 
Let's consider two scenarios:

1. A disaster that kills a thousand civilians, including a party of old age pensioners, a group of young mothers, families that include small children and babies in arms, a large group of civilian police officers, staff and crew, who had zero time to evacuate and zero time to arrange rescue.

You would expect: the senior crew to be singled out for interview.

You would expect the captain and his senior crew to be questioned and charged with negligence until such time they can be exonerated.

You would expect the authorities to be champing at the bit to bring the responsible parties to justice.
Do you know what you wouldn't expect?

A secret helicopter mission to be sent out immediately after the ship was sinking to disappear the crew, put them on secret CIA flights disguised as cargo flights, taken to a CIA black site and put on secret trial.

That's just nuts. But it's one of the ideas you've put forth in this thread.
 
Do you know what you wouldn't expect?

A secret helicopter mission to be sent out immediately after the ship was sinking to disappear the crew, put them on secret CIA flights disguised as cargo flights, taken to a CIA black site and put on secret trial.

That's just nuts. But it's one of the ideas you've put forth in this thread.
And you wouldn't the crew to be disappeared by the CIA and put on secret trial at a black site because Russian Spetsnaz sank the ship with placed demolition charges, or because a Swedish submarine accidentally collided with the ship or because smuggled nuclear material dissolved the bow locks or whatever is the nutty idea de jour that you're proposing.
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.

Back
Top Bottom