Cont: The Sinking of MS Estonia: Case Reopened Part V

[abaddon]

And you wouldn't the crew to be disappeared by the CIA and put on secret trial at a black site because Russian Spetsnaz sank the ship with placed demolition charges, or because a Swedish submarine accidentally collided with the ship or because smuggled nuclear material dissolved the bow locks or whatever is the nutty idea de jour that you're proposing.

It is the nature of the fringe reset. Go AWOL for a few days, then recycle the debunked arguments as though everyone forgot, somehow.

 

[Axxman300]

That is not the point. The issue is, something that looked like an IED was spotted by the German shipbuilder experts on the Rockwater video tapes. Some expert military explosives experts were appointed to investigate this. Enter Braidwood and Fellows. They presented their professional opinion to the JAIC via Hummel for Werft Meyer.

It really matters not a jot who, how or where these presumed IED came from.

You can't just handwave it away as 'oh it's a conspiracy theory!'

I can wave this away as crap.

I've seen their "evidence" and so have a lot of people with more experience in explosives than I have, and they share my opinion.

See, how it works is if a bunch of EOD specialists look at the images and the MAJORITY all say the same thing then there is a good reason for further investigation. But when a bunch of EOF specialists look at the evidence and ONLY ONE thinks it's an "IED" then there is likely nothing to the claim. Especially of the lone EOD specialist has no working knowledge of shipboard equipment and accoutrements which can be mistaken for a device. And the next question should be how many other shipwrecks has this expert worked and or reviewed prior to looking at the MS Estonia footage?

And BTW, they went back down there and found zero evidence of explosives being used. And both surveys show extensive rippling at the bow indicating the bow-visor hammered the ship hard enough to dent it before it was dislodged.

I'm happy to take my MOUNTAIN OF EVIDENCE and wave away claims of explosives as a silly conspiracy theory since that is what it is.

 

[Axxman300]

Let's consider two scenarios:

1. A disaster that kills a thousand civilians, including a party of old age pensioners, a group of young mothers, families that include small children and babies in arms, a large group of civilian police officers, staff and crew, who had zero time to evacuate and zero time to arrange rescue.

You would expect: the senior crew to be singled out for interview.

Which they did with the available surviving crew.

You would expect the captain and his senior crew to be questioned and charged with negligence until such time they can be exonerated.

How would they question the captain and senior crew since they went down with the ship? Do you think OUIJA boards are admissible in a court of law?

And what kind of moron charges someone with negligence without evidence?

You would expect the authorities to be champing at the bit to bring the responsible parties to justice.

No, in Trump-Idiot world maybe, but in the real world I expect the authorities to conduct a full investigation before leveling charges, and making recommendations for change. And there is no reason to assume the investigation was not aggressive and as thorough as possible.

Facts:

We know the AB watchman and third and fourth engineers together with a newbie engineer all managed to escape from deck 0 and share the same life raft, complete with wallets, survival suits, passports and warm clothing, even as the same time as the IVth senior officers (the system was that there were two captains, each with two senior officers, who took their watches in turn) managed to get out a 'Mayday' call that was heard.

And?

Please tell us, based on your years of experience working as an engineer on an Estonian owned Ro-Ro ferry, why any of this is strange.

We know that the senior officers who had left the bridge at 0100 for the replacement watch and some entertainment staff and the bar manager, were intially listed as having similarly having survived, and being on the advantageous upper decks and luxury cabins for many of the others who did survive, it seems reasonable to assume some even shared the same life raft. We know Alexander Voronin and his family, who seemed to be sharing with Captain Piht, escaped

No, Piht did not get off the ship. The man in the life raft was never identified as Piht.

To say he escaped is a now well-debunked lie.

despite Alexander's severe health problems, a teenage son and an elderly relative escaped OK, so it is reasonable to expect his peers on that deck to also have done so.

No.

The command crew would have stayed on the bridge or at their duty stations for as long as possible. And at some point as the ship listed, escape became impossible.

National newspapers quote the head of waterways safety administration Stenmark of confirming that Piht had survived and would be interviewed and had been interviewed.

No, they never confirmed anything. They reported what one outlet said without double-checking. This is common in disasters on this scale.

Next the senior officers' names are removed from the survivors list with no explanation at all.

If they were put on a survivor's list by accident, and then removed once the final tallies were in, why would they have to explain anything.

Two cargo plane chartered by a US company leaves Arlanda circa 29.9/30.9.1994, one to Amsterdam one to Maine, USA, listing nine unknown passengers. US Embassy in Stockholm pays the bill issued by Arlanda for this.

And?

2. Fast forward six years. The 9/11 disaster happens. The CIA believe Muslim terrorists are responsible. It issues 'extraordinary rendition' demands to various western states asking for the removal of persons, who may or may not have had terrorists links or sympathies, into their hands. These persons were removed to US controlled zones such as Guantanomo Bay at the request of the CIA of POTUS Bush.

So many telling errors here.

The CIA didn't "believe" Muslim extremists were behind 9-11, they knew it. Partially because one of the CIA cells had been tracking Al Qaeda, and partially because AL QAEDA BRAGGED ABOUT THE ATTACK.

We never issued demands to western countries. We asked some countries to hand over suspects we felt were connected to Al Qaeda in some way. And those countries were ALREADY suspicious of most of the suspects we requested and were happy to have an excuse to be rid of them. I doubt the phrase, "Extraordinary Rendition" was ever used in the requests. I base this on the fact that a few of those countries later protested after learning we tortured a few of them.

And with your ridiculous claims about the CIA, how do you not know we had black-sites in Poland, Estonia, and other countries far away from Gitmo?

It's as if you do zero research at all.

Two of these included two Egyptian asylum seekers in Sweden who were removed as a result of such a request by the CIA in Cairo, it being in the aftermath of 9/11. A US-hired cargo plane was used to remove the two extra-judicially (contravening the 1998 Rome Treaty which establishes the right to a hearing and other human rights).

Nobody cares. This has nothing to do with the bow-visor falling off, causing the ship to sink.

You need to cite a source for a "cargo plane". We have plenty of aircraft in Europe, or we might have chartered an Egyptian plane

This action is a near replay of what happened to the Estonia senior crew six year's earlier, if indeed that is what did happen to them.

Again, in 1994, the CIA had no such capabilities. Second, the United States was not involved at any level with the Estonia disaster.

To simply say, WHO CARES?


You should care.

Nobody cares. Not in this discussion. Maybe if there was a thread down in the current events, or political boards (and there are a few) then most of the posters in this thread WOULD CARE. But in this case, the Egyptians have no bearing on this discussion. Your inept attempt to use their case to support the ludicrous idea that Sweden and the CIA "disappeared" is pathetic, no matter how much smoke and frantic dancing you do to cover your mistake.

You should be asking why you need this event to be a conspiracy instead of an accident? There is no rational thinking on your part. You have managed to drag Bill Clinton, the CIA, the Russians, and Israel into your rantings of conspiracy. All without evidence on any kind.

 

[Vixen]

That doesn't stop Egypt from being their home country. People are denied asylum all the time. We all agree that the manner in which the Egyptians were deported was improper. But it's not an enforced disappearance.



The real situation as described in the Rome Statute, as regards enforced disappearance, has nothing to do with the facts of the case brought by the Egyptians. You're simply trying very hard to make one offense look like a very much more serious offense. The facts do not agree with you.

It wasn't about 'denying asylum'. And in fact there were no papers to say so. It only fell short of the strict limitations of the Rome Treaty in that it was only two days instead of the seven-day stipulation. And of course, as you say, the claimant didn't bring a case under this jurisdiction. However, it doesn't change the fact the thrust of the action by CIA in demanding a foreign power just ignore such treaties and hand over persons, who are legitimately registered to be in that country, without any right of notice and basic right to let their family and friends know.

 

[Vixen]

And you wouldn't the crew to be disappeared by the CIA and put on secret trial at a black site because Russian Spetsnaz sank the ship with placed demolition charges, or because a Swedish submarine accidentally collided with the ship or because smuggled nuclear material dissolved the bow locks or whatever is the nutty idea de jour that you're proposing.

Not my ideas. These are as put forward by influential persons.

What about the elephant in the room?


A thousand people innocently travelling on a ferry suddenly and violently drowned.

Nobody has been arrested.

Nobody has been charged with any offence.

Noone has been brought to justice.

Now that is what I call scandalous.

 

[Vixen]

I can wave this away as crap.

I've seen their "evidence" and so have a lot of people with more experience in explosives than I have, and they share my opinion.

See, how it works is if a bunch of EOD specialists look at the images and the MAJORITY all say the same thing then there is a good reason for further investigation. But when a bunch of EOF specialists look at the evidence and ONLY ONE thinks it's an "IED" then there is likely nothing to the claim. Especially of the lone EOD specialist has no working knowledge of shipboard equipment and accoutrements which can be mistaken for a device. And the next question should be how many other shipwrecks has this expert worked and or reviewed prior to looking at the MS Estonia footage?

And BTW, they went back down there and found zero evidence of explosives being used. And both surveys show extensive rippling at the bow indicating the bow-visor hammered the ship hard enough to dent it before it was dislodged.

I'm happy to take my MOUNTAIN OF EVIDENCE and wave away claims of explosives as a silly conspiracy theory since that is what it is.

What? Braidwood was given two samples of metal cut out from the Estonia. He had them tested by three independent laboratories. He had no conflict of interest, being British and with no motive to bend the results, and neither did Michael Fellows.


Sure they were commissioned but I doubt they were paid much.

Plus for people in their positions (MBE's and what have you) their reputation is all, they will not risk losing it if they did not believe in their stance.

 

[Andy_Ross]

What? Braidwood was given two samples of metal cut out from the Estonia. He had them tested by three independent laboratories. He had no conflict of interest, being British and with no motive to bend the results, and neither did Michael Fellows.


Sure they were commissioned but I doubt they were paid much.

Plus for people in their positions (MBE's and what have you) their reputation is all, they will not risk losing it if they did not believe in their stance.

What a load of old ****

 

[junkshop]

Vixen,

What do you think OP means?

 

[Vixen]

Which they did with the available surviving crew.




How would they question the captain and senior crew since they went down with the ship? Do you think OUIJA boards are admissible in a court of law?

And what kind of moron charges someone with negligence without evidence?



No, in Trump-Idiot world maybe, but in the real world I expect the authorities to conduct a full investigation before leveling charges, and making recommendations for change. And there is no reason to assume the investigation was not aggressive and as thorough as possible.



And?

Please tell us, based on your years of experience working as an engineer on an Estonian owned Ro-Ro ferry, why any of this is strange.



No, Piht did not get off the ship. The man in the life raft was never identified as Piht.

To say he escaped is a now well-debunked lie.



No.

The command crew would have stayed on the bridge or at their duty stations for as long as possible. And at some point as the ship listed, escape became impossible.



No, they never confirmed anything. They reported what one outlet said without double-checking. This is common in disasters on this scale.



If they were put on a survivor's list by accident, and then removed once the final tallies were in, why would they have to explain anything.



And?



So many telling errors here.

The CIA didn't "believe" Muslim extremists were behind 9-11, they knew it. Partially because one of the CIA cells had been tracking Al Qaeda, and partially because AL QAEDA BRAGGED ABOUT THE ATTACK.

We never issued demands to western countries. We asked some countries to hand over suspects we felt were connected to Al Qaeda in some way. And those countries were ALREADY suspicious of most of the suspects we requested and were happy to have an excuse to be rid of them. I doubt the phrase, "Extraordinary Rendition" was ever used in the requests. I base this on the fact that a few of those countries later protested after learning we tortured a few of them.

And with your ridiculous claims about the CIA, how do you not know we had black-sites in Poland, Estonia, and other countries far away from Gitmo?

It's as if you do zero research at all.


Nobody cares. This has nothing to do with the bow-visor falling off, causing the ship to sink.

You need to cite a source for a "cargo plane". We have plenty of aircraft in Europe, or we might have chartered an Egyptian plane



Again, in 1994, the CIA had no such capabilities. Second, the United States was not involved at any level with the Estonia disaster.



Nobody cares. Not in this discussion. Maybe if there was a thread down in the current events, or political boards (and there are a few) then most of the posters in this thread WOULD CARE. But in this case, the Egyptians have no bearing on this discussion. Your inept attempt to use their case to support the ludicrous idea that Sweden and the CIA "disappeared" is pathetic, no matter how much smoke and frantic dancing you do to cover your mistake.

You should be asking why you need this event to be a conspiracy instead of an accident? There is no rational thinking on your part. You have managed to drag Bill Clinton, the CIA, the Russians, and Israel into your rantings of conspiracy. All without evidence on any kind.

Re the senior officers. The protocol was that each of the two captains (one the second captain) had a third and fourth officer on duty each time, which I believe was five hours. In effect, there were six all together, or more. Thus when Andresson went on duty Piht and his two officers came off. As the accident happened at about 0100 and that was the change of watch, they would have still been up and about. Piht and Voronin were in private luxury cabins, as Piht, although taking over at six, or shadowing, was not officially on duty as he had charting exams later in Stockholm. Nearby Piht and the Voronin family, there was an old sea captain (b 1917) who all survived.

Given the lower ranks in Deck 0 had no problems surviving and getting onto a raft early, I believe it is entirely probable that it was not just Voronin and the old sea captain and his wife, together with Voronin's family, who all managed to escape.

Remember: the headline in the London Evening Standard (Colin Anderson [_sp?]) was 'the guilty will be brought to jail' and confirmed Piht had survived and was awaiting interview, likewise, the reputable Helsingin Sanomat.

In addition, you may recall the Rockwater divers went to Piht/Voronin's cabin and retrieved an attaché case int he name of Voronin, as can be evidenced by the publicly available tapes.

At the time, it was not known Voronin was trading in arms. When that information was revealed, Voronin had a stroke two weeks later and died.

The point here, is that prosecutors and police showed a LOT of interest in these two. The other Estonian crew/staff listed as survivors initially, included the IVth Officer navigator, the Chief Engineer, the Chief Doctor plus the bar manager and a couple of cruise entertainers.

Almost all of these would be persons of very great interest. Especially as some will have been on duty as of the time leading up to the 'accident'.

Thus, the removal from the survivors list and Piht mysteriously no longer around, together with NOBODY being brought to justice publicly, indicates to me there is every chance they were handed over to the CIA, especially if it was the CIA who were expecting the delivered Russian smuggled state secrets.

We know how ruthlessly Russians guard these things. Another fact is, the Estonian head of defense was a Russian spy (although this did not come to light until 1996, when he was jailed for High Treason), Herman Simm, so if anyone tipped off the Russians, it is a good bet it was Simm, who also had the power and muscle to arrange a counter-espionage operation.

So IMV it is not at all unreasonable to suspect that something like this happened. The senior crew could not be tried in public because can you imagine the world wide scandal if it came to light Sweden for the USA had smuggled this stuff on a passenger ferry carrying over 500 of its own citizens? It would have a hard and embarrassing time explaining the catastrophe, and possibly triggering Russia to threaten to send 'peace-keeping troops' back into Estonia, which was in a delicate vulnerable teething stage of its newly found independence. So I believe - given the alacrity Bildt declared it was a design fault and a Herald of Free Enterprise scenario - that the whole thing was made a highly classified incident, which is why we have an anodyne JAIC report that took three years to come out and no trial in the public domain. In addition, everything surrounding it is classified for 70 years. The Swedish democratic parliament and the Swedish people have no say in this as it was all to do with the defense secret services. Hirschfeld made it clear he was not investigating the KSI, who would have been the intelligence agency behind the espionage.

So I don't think it is a tall story at all.

If that was the rough scenario then the authorities were faced with a dilemma: if the crew knew about the espionage, and Andresson as captain would have had a duty to know what went on in his ship, then it would be hard to blame them if the Russians had retaliated to stop the delivery by any means possible. If they alone were responsible because of negligence, then the sheer number of persons killed, perhaps made it impractical to have a public trial. Knowing as we did ten years later, Sweden admitted to a limited amount of espionage smuggling, the former is more likely, especially as the Estonian Officers went to traditional Russian naval schools. They might have objected to the smuggling to the west or were being blackmailed or extorted.

 

[Andy_Ross]

Re the senior officers. The protocol was that each of the two captains (one the second captain) had a third and fourth officer on duty each time, which I believe was five hours. In effect, there were six all together, or more. Thus when Andresson went on duty Piht and his two officers came off. As the accident happened at about 0100 and that was the change of watch, they would have still been up and about. Piht and Voronin were in private luxury cabins, as Piht, although taking over at six, or shadowing, was not officially on duty as he had charting exams later in Stockholm. Nearby Piht and the Voronin family, there was an old sea captain (b 1917) who all survived.

Given the lower ranks in Deck 0 had no problems surviving and getting onto a raft early, I believe it is entirely probable that it was not just Voronin and the old sea captain and his wife, together with Voronin's family, who all managed to escape.

Remember: the headline in the London Evening News (Colin Anderson [_sp?]) was 'the guilty will be brought to jail' and confirmed Piht had survived and was awaiting interview, likewise, the reputable Helsingin Sanomat.

In addition, you may recall the Rockwater divers went to Piht/Voronin's cabin and retrieved an attaché case int he name of Voronin, as can be evidenced by the publicly available tapes.

At the time, it was not known Voronin was trading in arms. When that information was revealed, Voronin had a stroke two weeks later and died.

The point here, is that prosecutors and police showed a LOT of interest in these two. The other Estonian crew/staff listed as survivors initially, included the IVth Officer navigator, the Chief Engineer, the Chief Doctor plus the bar manager and a couple of cruise entertainers.

Almost all of these would be persons of very great interest. Especially as some will have been on duty as of the time leading up to the 'accident'.

Thus, the removal from the survivors list and Piht mysteriously no longer around, together with NOBODY being brought to justice publicly, indicates to me there is every chance they were handed over to the CIA, especially if it was the CIA who were expected the delivered Russian smuggled state secrets.

We know how ruthlessly Russians guard these things. Another fact is, the Estonian head of defense was a Russian spy (although this did not come to light until 1996, when he was jailed for High Treason), Herman Simm, so if anyone tipped off the Russians, it is a good bet it was Simm, who also had the power and muscle to arrange a counter-espionage operation.

So IMV it is not at all unreasonable to suspect that something like this happened. The senior crew could not be tried in public because can you imagine the world wide scandal if it came to light Sweden for the USA had smuggled this stuff on a passenger ferry carrying over 500 of its own citizens? It would have a hard and embarrassing time explaining the catastrophe, and possibly triggering Russia to threaten to send 'peace-keeping troops' back into Estonia, which was in a delicate vulnerable teething stage of its newly found independence. So I believe - given the alacrity Bildt declared it was a design fault and a Herald of Free Enterprise scenario - that the whole thing was made a highly classified incident, which is why we have an anodyne JAIC report that took three years to come out and no trial in the public domain. In addition, everything surrounding it is classified for 70 years. The Swedish democratic parliament and the Swedish people have no say in this as it was all to do with the defense secret services. Hirschfeld made it clear he was not investigating the KSI, who would have been the intelligence agency behind the espionage.

So I don't think it is a tall story at all.

It's a crock of **** and you know it.

Are you playing some kind of game?

 

[Vixen]

It's a crock of **** and you know it.

Are you playing some kind of game?

It is perfectly factual. The issue would be establishing which facts are relevant, which they may or they may not be. Without a proper inquiry and transparency, we will never find out.

Relax, nobody is going to knock on your door and arrest you if you ask questions about things that you as a member of the public actually have a right to know and ask about.

'Step outta line, the Man come and take you away.' ~ Stephen Stills

 

[Axxman300]

Re the senior officers. The protocol was that each of the two captains (one the second captain) had a third and fourth officer on duty each time, which I believe was five hours. In effect, there were six all together, or more. Thus when Andresson went on duty Piht and his two officers came off. As the accident happened at about 0100 and that was the change of watch, they would have still been up and about. Piht and Voronin were in private luxury cabins, as Piht, although taking over at six, or shadowing, was not officially on duty as he had charting exams later in Stockholm. Nearby Piht and the Voronin family, there was an old sea captain (b 1917) who all survived.

Mr. Piht, he dead.

He never left the ship.

Given the lower ranks in Deck 0 had no problems surviving and getting onto a raft early, I believe it is entirely probable that it was not just Voronin and the old sea captain and his wife, together with Voronin's family, who all managed to escape.

That is your malfunction. There were many partially filled life-rafts, which speaks to the chaos on the decks as the ship rolled. The captain, if he was any good, would have been trying to solve the problem, not looking for an escape, and the captain would have certainly escaped.

He did not.

Remember: the headline in the London Evening Standard (Colin Anderson [_sp?]) was 'the guilty will be brought to jail' and confirmed Piht had survived and was awaiting interview, likewise, the reputable Helsingin Sanomat.

No, but I remember the headline: Dewey Wins! I also remember the special edition of the SF Chronicle printed after the 1989 Loma Prieta Quake which predicted tens of thousands dead on the collapsed Nimitz Freeway. I also remember the Miami Herald reporting that Private Jessica Lynch had been taken prisoner in Iraq after fighting off dozens of attackers single-handedly. Newspapers make mistakes, and Piht was a big one.

In addition, you may recall the Rockwater divers went to Piht/Voronin's cabin and retrieved an attaché case int he name of Voronin, as can be evidenced by the publicly available tapes.

And?

At the time, it was not known Voronin was trading in arms. When that information was revealed, Voronin had a stroke two weeks later and died.

And?

The point here, is that prosecutors and police showed a LOT of interest in these two. The other Estonian crew/staff listed as survivors initially, included the IVth Officer navigator, the Chief Engineer, the Chief Doctor plus the bar manager and a couple of cruise entertainers.

Really, they prosecute dead people in Europe?

Almost all of these would be persons of very great interest. Especially as some will have been on duty as of the time leading up to the 'accident'.

And?

It was a big ship. What would the bartender know?

Thus, the removal from the survivors list and Piht mysteriously no longer around, together with NOBODY being brought to justice publicly, indicates to me there is every chance they were handed over to the CIA, especially if it was the CIA who were expecting the delivered Russian smuggled state secrets.

Why?

Why would the CIA want any of these people? Even if they had been smuggling something on the night the ship sank, they would not have done more than make quiet phone calls, and back-channel stuff to see if there was any way they could send divers into the wreck to get their goodies. The CIA would never grab anybody, certainly not non-criminal European nationals for no reason. When a mission goes wrong the CIA keeps a low profile, they don't go charging in grabbing people. They don't even do that now.

Just because you have some deep-seeded need to have the CIA be the root of all evil in your worldview doesn't make it so.

We know how ruthlessly Russians guard these things. Another fact is, the Estonian head of defense was a Russian spy (although this did not come to light until 1996, when he was jailed for High Treason), Herman Simm, so if anyone tipped off the Russians, it is a good bet it was Simm, who also had the power and muscle to arrange a counter-espionage operation.

1. It was Russians who were selling the stuff.
2. Sinking a ship is not espionage.
3. If they had the capability to sink the Estonia then a couple of trucks should have been a piece of cake to stop.
4. If the CIA, the Swedes, Mossad, or MI6 was smuggling something out of Estonia, the Estonians wouldn't have known about it. Give them a little credit.

So IMV it is not at all unreasonable to suspect that something like this happened. The senior crew could not be tried in public because can you imagine the world wide scandal if it came to light Sweden for the USA had smuggled this stuff on a passenger ferry carrying over 500 of its own citizens?

Why would the senior crew be put on trial for anything other than sailing the ship too fast in heavy seas?

Why would the senior crew know about smuggling?

It would have a hard and embarrassing time explaining the catastrophe, and possibly triggering Russia to threaten to send 'peace-keeping troops' back into Estonia, which was in a delicate vulnerable teething stage of its newly found independence.

I agree, explaining a stupid story would be difficult. Luckily the bow visor fell off.

So I believe - given the alacrity Bildt declared it was a design fault and a Herald of Free Enterprise scenario

Which isn't true, and has been debunked numerous times...

that the whole thing was made a highly classified incident, which is why we have an anodyne JAIC report that took three years to come out

Three years? Almost as if they did a thorough investigation or something. Those monsters.

and no trial in the public domain.

The bow visor was knocked off by rough seas. The only person that could be put on trial would be God, or Poseidon (depending on how specific you want to be). Technically it would have been the captain, for being reckless, but he went down with the ship. So...

In addition, everything surrounding it is classified for 70 years.

And yet there is a new investigation that is not classified.

The Swedish democratic parliament and the Swedish people have no say in this as it was all to do with the defense secret services. Hirschfeld made it clear he was not investigating the KSI, who would have been the intelligence agency behind the espionage.

You just said the CIA and Estonia was behind it. Doesn't matter. The bow-visor was knocked off in rough seas. The KSI had nothing to do with that.

So I don't think it is a tall story at all.

Bless your heart.

If that was the rough scenario then the authorities were faced with a dilemma: if the crew knew about the espionage,

Why would the crew know about espionage? And if they did, they would have said something by now, and that hasn't happened.

and Andresson as captain would have had a duty to know what went on in his ship,

You mean the same guy who didn't send a damage-control party to investigate the report of water rushing into the car-deck? That guy?

then it would be hard to blame them if the Russians had retaliated to stop the delivery by any means possible.

Okay, but why would the CIA grab them? Russians actually had this capability in 1994, and are good at grabbing people. And yes, I'm jealous. But the Russians wouldn't have sunk the ship. They're good at a lot of sneaky things, getting their stolen gear back would have been done brutally quiet.

If they alone were responsible because of negligence, then the sheer number of persons killed, perhaps made it impractical to have a public trial. Knowing as we did ten years later, Sweden admitted to a limited amount of espionage smuggling, the former is more likely, especially as the Estonian Officers went to traditional Russian naval schools. They might have objected to the smuggling to the west or were being blackmailed or extorted.

The whole point of smuggling is secrecy. Nobody on MS Estonia would have known. Certainly none of the crew would have been privy to a clandestine operation. They'd assume their customs agents had done their jobs.

Bottom line: The Estonia sank due to mechanical failure brought about by reckless sailing speeds in conditions for which it was never designed. The command crew failed to respond to the report of water at the bow section of the car deck.

That's it.

 

[Axxman300]

It wasn't about 'denying asylum'. And in fact there were no papers to say so. It only fell short of the strict limitations of the Rome Treaty in that it was only two days instead of the seven-day stipulation. And of course, as you say, the claimant didn't bring a case under this jurisdiction. However, it doesn't change the fact the thrust of the action by CIA in demanding a foreign power just ignore such treaties and hand over persons, who are legitimately registered to be in that country, without any right of notice and basic right to let their family and friends know.

The CIA didn't "demand" anything. They made a request through diplomatic channels and Sweden approved.

This is a request that the CIA would not have made prior to 9-11, and certainly not a request Sweden would have granted prior to 9-11-2001. The attacks by Muslim extremists in Europe since 2001 suggest that Sweden might have had a good reason to be suspicious of these two men enough to allow the CIA to take them.

 

[BazBear]

Vixen, let me complete that classic Buffalo Springfield verse for you.

Paranoia strikes deep
Into your life it will creep
It starts when you're always afraid...

Step outta line, the Man come and take you away.' ~ Stephen Stills

 

[Jack by the hedge]

Not my ideas. These are as put forward by influential persons.

What about the elephant in the room?


A thousand people innocently travelling on a ferry suddenly and violently drowned.

Nobody has been arrested.

Nobody has been charged with any offence.

Noone has been brought to justice.

Now that is what I call scandalous.

Sure, they're not your conspiracy theories, you're just asking questions.

Now: who would you like to have seen charged, with what offence and based upon what evidence, please?

 

[Jack by the hedge]

... Remember: the headline in the London Evening Standard (Colin Anderson [_sp?]) was 'the guilty will be brought to jail' and confirmed Piht had survived and was awaiting interview, likewise, the reputable Helsingin Sanomat.

Are you claiming that Colin Anderson writing for the London Evening Standard saw Piht alive? Of course not. A London newspaper passing on someone else's misinformation is not evidence that Piht survived.

In addition, you may recall the Rockwater divers went to Piht/Voronin's cabin and retrieved an attaché case int he name of Voronin, as can be evidenced by the publicly available tapes.

I recall that they went looking for Piht's effects and found Voronin's. I don't recall your establishing that the Voronin family shared a cabin with Piht, only that you have kept repeating the assumption as if that will eventually turn it into a fact. Can you show that they shared a cabin?

The point here, is that prosecutors and police showed a LOT of interest in these two.

The dive transcript indicates that the diver and surface controller were unfamiliar with the name Voronin.

... So I believe - given the alacrity Bildt declared it was a design fault...

I do wish you would drop this crap about Bildt. Your much-repeated claim he declared to the press within hours what had caused the disaster has been very thoroughly debunked and it's just embarrassing to see you return to it like a dog to its vomit.

 

[Andy_Ross]

The dive transcript indicates that the diver and surface controller were unfamiliar with the name Voronin.

.

Don't forget the secret dive controller.

As for the cabins they searched the ones they could get access to.

 

[Myriad]

Not my ideas. These are as put forward by influential persons.

What about the elephant in the room?


A thousand people innocently travelling on a ferry suddenly and violently drowned.

Nobody has been arrested.

Nobody has been charged with any offence.

Noone has been brought to justice.

Now that is what I call scandalous.

Who should have been arrested?

What offenses should they have been charged with?

Under whose legal authority should the arrests and charges have been made?

What should the just sentences have been for those offenses?

You're paying no more attention to this "elephant" than anyone else if you can't or won't answer those questions.

 

[Steve]

Who should have been arrested?

What offenses should they have been charged with?

Under whose legal authority should the arrests and charges have been made?

What should the just sentences have been for those offenses?

You're paying no more attention to this "elephant" than anyone else if you can't or won't answer those questions.

C'mon now. You can't just counter Vixen's rhetoric with logic. It will not be understood as Vixen's mind does not work that way.

 

[Vixen]

Sure, they're not your conspiracy theories, you're just asking questions.

Now: who would you like to have seen charged, with what offence and based upon what evidence, please?

The captains and/or crew/ and/or shipowners of The Herald of Free Enterprise, Bow Belle, Oceanos, Concordia and, more recently, Karin Høj, were all charged with either negligence or corporate manslaughter.

Those relatives of the Estonia dead must be crazy to expect anyone to come to justice unless they are conspiracy theorists, seems to be your attitude.