Cont: The Sinking of MS Estonia: Case Reopened Part V

[Andy_Ross]

So an 'illegal deportation' is worth $500K...? One of the guys was given permanent residency as a citizen, after fulfilling criteria.

Do you agree it was not just a 'deportation gone wrong' but something a whole lot worse?

They certainly didn't disappear.

 

[Andy_Ross]

OK, so I appreciate the substances are no longer 'readily available' although I am pretty sure registered/licensed builders (as they were) probably still have easy access.

I bet they don't. I bet only people with proper training in the use of explosives and licenses to purchase explosives have access.

 

[Andy_Ross]

OK, so I appreciate the substances are no longer 'readily available' although I am pretty sure registered/licensed builders (as they were) probably still have easy access.

I bet they don't. I bet only people with proper training in the use of explosives and licenses to purchase explosives have access.

Why does it matter anyway unless you think the special forces that blew the ship up were from Finland and the Finnish army couldn't supply them with appropriate munitions.

 

[Andy_Ross]

That is not the point. The issue is, something that looked like an IED was spotted by the German shipbuilder experts on the Rockwater video tapes. Some expert military explosives experts were appointed to investigate this. Enter Braidwood and Fellows. They presented their professional opinion to the JAIC via Hummel for Werft Meyer.

It really matters not a jot who, how or where these presumed IED came from.

You can't just handwave it away as 'oh it's a conspiracy theory!'

Why do they look like an 'IED'?

Do you know what 'IED' means?

Why would a special forces team even use an 'IED'

If they were supposed to have blown the bows off the ship why are they still there?

 

[Marras]

Marras, thanks for the law update. The builders in my family were the war veteran generation and pre-EU rules.

The laws changed before EU. I'm not certain how long before because finlex goes only back to 1988 for obsolete laws, but it does have Räjähdeasetus of 1993 that already contains the pretty much the same main rules as the current law has.

But you probably should have considered that the legislation might have changed since the 1950s.

OK, so I appreciate the substances are no longer 'readily available' although I am pretty sure registered/licensed builders (as they were) probably still have easy access.

"Easy" is a relative term. There is and was also in 1994 a lot of paperwork necessary for purchasing explosives and the buyer needs and needed to provide copies of all relevant certifications and permits before they are allowed to get the explosives and the seller was responsible for archiving them for five years.

 

[Marras]

IMV that is the de facto case.

This brings to my mind that one Soviet joke from 1960s:

Question to Radio Yerevan: Is it true that they are giving cars to people at Moscow?

Radio Yerevan answers: It is completely true. But there are slight mistakes in details. It's not in Moscow but in Leningrad, they are bicycles and not cars, and they are not being given out but stolen.

 

[JesseCuster]

You requested the Moik interview and I went to some trouble to find it for you. Did I hear a thank you.

Stop fibbing.

I asked for evidence that Moik was fired because he said he saw Piht on TV in an interview. You then posted a transcript of the interview because you're incapable of answering simple questions.

You still haven't provided any evidence that Moik was fired because of an interview he gave.

 

[Vixen]

So elite special forces teams have to pretend to be builders and get civilian licenses for dynamite and try to use it in place of the proper explosives for the job and use improvised devices?

No wonder they didn't explode and were left on the wreck.

How did the bow get blown off if the charges were still there?

From the witness statements of many of the survivors, bangs and a series of bangs were heard (a Finnish-speaking Swedish guy described it as paukuttaa) so I am not sure why it was automatically handwaved away by the JAIC as 'oh it was just the bow visor they heard', given the 852 people who lost their lives.

As you saw, the package seen in the video did not activate. That is not to say a package/s elsewhere did not.

 

[Vixen]

Your view is simply wrong.

Better than your euphemism of 'repatriation'.

 

[zooterkin]

You do enjoy slurring me.

If you're fluent in Finnish, then how did you read it as 'ethane' instead of as the Finnish for 'snail' (or 'slug'), especially when 'snail dynamite' had only just been mentioned in the thread?

 

[MarkCorrigan]

Better than your euphemism of 'repatriation'.

Nope, because my comment was accurate, and I said it was forced repatriation.

You seem to think that because I do not share your incorrect view that this was a disappearance, that I somehow agree with the actions of Sweden. I do not. I am strongly against the forced repatriation of suspects without due process.

Do you know what my avatar is?

 

[Vixen]

This is a very interesting video about the geography and evolution of the Baltic Sea. Useful for those who want to understand the environment in which the Estonia met its fate. and now lies. Apparently, there are over 5,000 downed aircraft lying at the bottom. Imagine if all the earth's seas and oceans dried up, what a junk yard it would look like!




Notandum: there are English subtitles available in 'settings'.

 

[Andy_Ross]

From the witness statements of many of the survivors, bangs and a series of bangs were heard (a Finnish-speaking Swedish guy described it as paukuttaa) so I am not sure why it was automatically handwaved away by the JAIC as 'oh it was just the bow visor they heard', given the 852 people who lost their lives.

As you saw, the package seen in the video did not activate. That is not to say a package/s elsewhere did not.

Bangs are not explosions, we went through this at great length previously.

But if it did not activate why wasn't it disrupted by the other explosions?

What was that package supposed to damage if it did go off?

Why would it still be in place if there had been other explosions around it?

 

[Marras]

From the witness statements of many of the survivors, bangs and a series of bangs were heard (a Finnish-speaking Swedish guy described it as paukuttaa) so I am not sure why it was automatically handwaved away by the JAIC as 'oh it was just the bow visor they heard', given the 852 people who lost their lives.

As you saw, the package seen in the video did not activate. That is not to say a package/s elsewhere did not.

I would never associate the word 'paukuttaa' with a series of explosions. No one who I know would use 'paukku' to describe an explosion larger than what is produced by small firework crackers unless they were deliberately playing it down and comparing a large explosion to crackers.

The word 'paukuttaa' implies that there is a series of similar loud sudden noises that usually are caused by one thing making the same noise many times. For example, you could use the word to describe a banging door.

 

[Mojo]

I would never associate the word 'paukuttaa' with a series of explosions. No one who I know would use 'paukku' to describe an explosion larger than what is produced by small firework crackers unless they were deliberately playing it down and comparing a large explosion to crackers.

The word 'paukuttaa' implies that there is a series of similar loud sudden noises that usually are caused by one thing making the same noise many times. For example, you could use the word to describe a banging door.

Or a bow visor being banged up and down by heavy seas?

 

[Andy_Ross]

Or a bow visor being banged up and down by heavy seas?

Or even the fastenings failing one after the other.

 

[Vixen]

If you're fluent in Finnish, then how did you read it as 'ethane' instead of as the Finnish for 'snail' (or 'slug'), especially when 'snail dynamite' had only just been mentioned in the thread?

Because I was looking for the chemical composition of the stuff. That is how the mis-association arose.


You have been told this. Stop telling me I did not think what I told you I thought.

 

[Vixen]

I would never associate the word 'paukuttaa' with a series of explosions. No one who I know would use 'paukku' to describe an explosion larger than what is produced by small firework crackers unless they were deliberately playing it down and comparing a large explosion to crackers.

The word 'paukuttaa' implies that there is a series of similar loud sudden noises that usually are caused by one thing making the same noise many times. For example, you could use the word to describe a banging door.

...and 'bang' is the [translated] word many survivors used.

This should be obvious that if you hear a noise you cannot state for sure what caused it unless you are familiar with it.

Thus few people are familiar with the sound of an explosive.

 

[Marras]

Or even the fastenings failing one after the other.

Possibly.

I would expect someone to use expression "kuului räjähdyksiä" to describe hearing a series of eplosions. Possibly 'kuului pamahduksia' if the person wasn't certain what they were hearing.

 

[Vixen]

Or even the fastenings failing one after the other.

The conjecture is all well and good but wasn't the JAIC remit to get to the bottom of it, not just speculate, 'oh the bangs they heard must have been the bow visor falling off!'

Well, Braidwood and Fellows were given the 'bum's rush', so they will know of the cover up.