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Cont: The Sinking of MS Estonia: Case Reopened Part V

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JayUtah said:
You've said that, but it's patently untrue. He was one of your first sources, remains one of your primary sources, and you're trying to rehabilitate him even now (for the umpteenth time) as an expert witness.
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Vixen said:
He's not my main source and never has been. As you have been told my main sources are newspaper accounts as of the time, together with other eclectic sources, including Drew Wilson and Jack A Nelson.

Clear now?
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I cannot seem to find the highlited words in the post you quoted and responded to. You are not, by any chance, once again inventing other people's words, are you?
 
Vixen said:
Nothing 'frantic' about it. Dynamite-type supplies are in common use here for reasons already stated. As I don't frequent hardware outlets much I wouldn't know one brand from another. The point being made is that it is not a difficult task for a determined person to get hold of the type of stuff needed to make an IED, as Michael Fellows points out. Or does he 'suck at it', as well?
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Frantic, no doubt in the same way you described those mechanics upthread frantically operating the electric bilge pumps.
 
Axxman300 said:
Maybe they were just jerks with a dangerous ideology, and Sweden found an excuse to get rid of them.

This has nothing to do with the Estonia's bow-visor being knocked off in rough seas that it was never designed to sail in.
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No, you are not getting it. If they were 'just jerks with a dangerous ideology', as registered and approved asylum seekers who made their applications in the proper way and were awaiting process they are entitled to received due legal process [a hearing] and to be in contact with their lawyers and family.
 
Vixen said:
Not sure what's with the 'An Angry Baby Writes' act. The information about the Atlantic lock was something I read on an interesting website. Unfortunately, I can't remember where, and can no longer find it. However, it was not about the Atlantic lock on the Estonia it was about that type of lock in general. I think Atlantic lock might even be the name of the original manufacturers, in the same way we call things 'Stanley knife','Hoover' or 'Biro'. Thus the 'feel safe' factor was to do with vessels in pretty much open sea, or ocean. More to do with the ship owners and buyers than anything to do with Estonia passengers. Someone at the Papenburg shipyard in Germany would have made the decision to incorporate such a lock.

When you bear in mind the Finnish, Swedish and German car ferries already had the safety features The Herald of Free Enterprise did not (for example, the bow visor [gate to protect the car ramp], a hydraulically-activated sensor light when the Atlantic bolt was latched into place, flexible cctv cameras to surveille the car deck and fitted with an automatically activated (HRU) float-free EPIRB either side of the bridge [although the Estonia one mysteriously failed to activate despite apparently being released], together with the additional Atlantic lock, you can see it was nothing like the Herald of Free Enterprise in terms of lack of safety.
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So your information comes from something you read but you can't remember were it was, who it was by or what it actually said?

Herald of free enterprise did not have a pivoting visor, it had clamshell doors. It was completely different in function and construction. It sank because they were left open.

Once again the EIPRB buoys on the Estonia failed to activate because they weren't turned on by the crew when the ship sank, They were not automatic.
 
MarkCorrigan said:
Vixen, do you not realise it's patently obvious that you're attempting to use Bjorkman as a source, and that simply claiming you are not doing so while regurgitating his points wholesale doesn't convince anyone?

This is toddler level of transparent dishonesty. You're doing the same thing as a 3 year old demanding we accept that they did not eat the cake despite having cake smeared all over their face. It's pathetic.
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Stop asking me the same stupid question over and over again. Do take time to reflect on your 'who-do-you-think-you-are?'-style [logical fallacy: the appeal to authority] mockery and consider whether it is appropriate.
 
Vixen said:
He's not my main source and never has been.
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I did not claim he was your "main source." Nevertheless you have relied upon him heavily. He is your source for much of the claims you have made regarding ship stability and construction.

As you have been told my main sources are newspaper accounts as of the time, together with other eclectic sources, including Drew Wilson and Jack A Nelson.
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You are quoting Aftonbladet as it appears on Anders Björkman's web site. You have been caught many other times presenting material cribbed from secondary sources that you attempt to pass of as your research from primary sources. It is clear you're quote-mining the typical conspiracy theorist resources in the attempt to present yourself as a firsthand researcher.

Clear now?
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It's clear what fantasy you're trying to promote regarding your sources. The evidence doesn't agree with it.
 
Vixen said:
Nothing 'frantic' about it. Dynamite-type supplies are in common use here for reasons already stated. As I don't frequent hardware outlets much I wouldn't know one brand from another. The point being made is that it is not a difficult task for a determined person to get hold of the type of stuff needed to make an IED, as Michael Fellows points out. Or does he 'suck at it', as well?
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How do you know it isn't difficult when you think a type of mortar is an explosive?
 
Vixen said:
No, you are not getting it. If they were 'just jerks with a dangerous ideology', as registered and approved asylum seekers who made their applications in the proper way and were awaiting process they are entitled to received due legal process [a hearing] and to be in contact with their lawyers and family.
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So you are switching from "disappeared" to "deported illegally" then?
 
JesseCuster said:
She even regurgitated the following claim, copied and pasted word for word (apart from the "or before" bit, that Erich Moik, was sacked from Estline for a TV interview he gave.



She copied and pasted it from Bjorkman's website without giving any citation that that's where she got the claim from. She didn't even reword it to hide the source.

So much for Bjorkman being a reliable authority for the topic of ship engineering and ship design and that's why she cites him, she's using him for other claims surrounding the Estonia conspiracy that have nothing to do with the physics or engineering of ships.
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You requested the Moik interview and I went to some trouble to find it for you. Did I hear a thank you.
 
Vixen said:
Stop asking me the same stupid question over and over again.
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Then stop changing your answers to them. You variously adopt or eschew Björkman, depending on some unseen whim. Therefore on any given day we have to figure out what you're going to claim as your sources.
 
Steve said:
I cannot seem to find the highlited words in the post you quoted and responded to. You are not, by any chance, once again inventing other people's words, are you?
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What do you think "remains one of your primary sources" means?

He is not my primary source nor my main source.

Just so you know.
 
Steve said:
Frantic, no doubt in the same way you described those mechanics upthread frantically operating the electric bilge pumps.
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As I explained to you at the time I had in mind the video Captain Swoop supplied showing engineers frantically working to plug water jetting out all over the place.

Remember now?

Sillaste did tell a newspaper they 'were up to our knees in water' in the Engine Control Room, yet there is no mention in the JAIC report of this.

Don't you think he should have reported this to the bridge at the time?
 
Vixen said:
What do you think "remains one of your primary sources" means?

He is not my primary source nor my main source.

Just so you know.
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It means exactly what it says. Does that trouble you so much that you have to change it? "one of" is quite different than being your sole main source.
 
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Vixen said:
As I explained to you at the time I had in mind the video Captain Swoop supplied showing engineers frantically working to plug water jetting out all over the place.

(irrelevance snipped)
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Interesting insight into the workings of your mind.
 
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