Cont: The Sinking of MS Estonia: Case Reopened Part V

[Vixen]

So your information comes from something you read but you can't remember were it was, who it was by or what it actually said?

Herald of free enterprise did not have a pivoting visor, it had clamshell doors. It was completely different in function and construction. It sank because they were left open.

Once again the EIPRB buoys on the Estonia failed to activate because they weren't turned on by the crew when the ship sank, They were not automatic.

If you recall, the recommendations in the public inquiry into The Herald of Free Enterprise was that a 'gate' be provided to cover the car deck door as a safety feature. This is what the bow visor is in working practice.

Thanks for your opinion on the EPIRB's. The JAIC however does not back you up.

 

[MarkCorrigan]

Stop asking me the same stupid question over and over again. Do take time to reflect on your 'who-do-you-think-you-are?'-style [logical fallacy: the appeal to authority] mockery and consider whether it is appropriate.

Vixen, what is the appeal to authority fallacy as you understand it?

 

[Vixen]

I did not claim he was your "main source." Nevertheless you have relied upon him heavily. He is your source for much of the claims you have made regarding ship stability and construction.



You are quoting Aftonbladet as it appears on Anders Björkman's web site. You have been caught many other times presenting material cribbed from secondary sources that you attempt to pass of as your research from primary sources. It is clear you're quote-mining the typical conspiracy theorist resources in the attempt to present yourself as a firsthand researcher.



It's clear what fantasy you're trying to promote regarding your sources. The evidence doesn't agree with it.

...And his copy of Aftonbladet appears to come from exactly the same digital newspaper site that Here To Learn directed us to (or was it Marras).


Aftonbladet retains the copyright and they were correctly credited, as does Eesti Paiva Lehti re the Moik article.

If Bjorkman was to quote Shakespeare, I will give credit to Shakespeare.

 

[Vixen]

How do you know it isn't difficult when you think a type of mortar is an explosive?

Er, because close relatives of mine were builders. They used this stuff.

 

[JayUtah]

If Bjorkman was to quote Shakespeare, I will give credit to Shakespeare.

If someone misquotes Shakespeare, will you attribute the error to Shakespeare? Real historical scholarship, which you claim to be familiar with, does not allow such transparent read-through citations. You are avoiding naming Björkman because you know he is a pour source, but you wish to use him anyway and hop you won't get caught.

 

[Vixen]

So you are switching from "disappeared" to "deported illegally" then?

Removed without due process in violation of basic human rights. 'Disappeared' for short.

 

[Steve]

Er, because close relatives of mine were builders. They used this stuff.

They used ethanedynamiitti to build things? Or just plain ethane?

 

[Vixen]

Ethane is a gas with properties similar to methane, propane and others. Why would the name 'ethane' distract you?

Etanadynamiitti is a made up brand name which I saw for the first time. There is another product but I couldn't be bothered to search for it.

 

[MarkCorrigan]

...And his copy of Aftonbladet appears to come from exactly the same digital newspaper site that Here To Learn directed us to (or was it Marras).


Aftonbladet retains the copyright and they were correctly credited, as does Eesti Paiva Lehti re the Moik article.

If Bjorkman was to quote Shakespeare, I will give credit to Shakespeare.

But the problem is he is selectively quoting Aftonbladet.

To take the hilighted above, I'm sure you know the following quote:

‘Some are born great, some achieve greatness, and some have greatness thrust upon them.’

Now let's say that Bjorkman instead rendered the quote as thus:

‘Some are born great... and some have greatness thrust upon them.’

Then you went and quoted the second of the above to us. Would you really be quoting Shakespeare, or would you instead be quoting Bjorkman?

 

[Andy_Ross]

As I explained to you at the time I had in mind the video Captain Swoop supplied showing engineers frantically working to plug water jetting out all over the place.

Remember now?

Sillaste did tell a newspaper they 'were up to our knees in water' in the Engine Control Room, yet there is no mention in the JAIC report of this.

Don't you think he should have reported this to the bridge at the time?

Merchant navy crews are not trained to control flooding in such a way. There aren't enough of them, they don't have the resources to attempt it and a merchant ship is not built like a warship.

By the time the water was up to their knees everyone would have known there was a major problem and they should have been abandoning ship.

How do you know they hadn't informed the bridge?

 

[MarkCorrigan]

Removed without due process in violation of basic human rights. 'Disappeared' for short.

Nope. You know that isn't what it means to be disappeared. You've been informed multiple times that you are simply wrong, and every time you've attempted to argue the point the exact wording of the legal statutes has been presented to show you that you're wrong. You are now clearly and deliberately lying, or are too stupid to understand what for legalese is plain English.

So, dishonest or moronic. Your choice I guess.

 

[Vixen]

Then stop changing your answers to them. You variously adopt or eschew Björkman, depending on some unseen whim. Therefore on any given day we have to figure out what you're going to claim as your sources.

Look. I may disapprove of what someone says but I will defend their right to say it. I don't agree with anarchists and anti-vaxxers. I am not going to deny their right to have their view even if it is not one I care for.

 

[Steve]

Removed without due process in violation of basic human rights. 'Disappeared' for short.

And yet people knew where these fellows were. It was no secret. Disappeared in plain sight is a concept only one person here seems to think is reasonable.

 

[MarkCorrigan]

Look. I may disapprove of what someone says but I will defend their right to say it. I don't agree with anarchists and anti-vaxxers. I am not going to deny their right to have their view even if it is not one I care for.

I don't know how you feel that this response answers what Jay said, but here on planet Earth it very much does not.

 

[Vixen]

Further interesting insight into the workings of your mind.

Likewise.

 

[JayUtah]

Removed without due process in violation of basic human rights. 'Disappeared' for short.

No.

You specifically referred to a particular crime of "enforced disappearance" as defined in the Rome Statute. Up until now you've been using "disappeared" to refer to that. Now you're blatantly trying to change horses.

Sweden was never convicted in any court of the crime of enforced disappearance as defined in the Rome Statute, for what they did to the two Egyptian deportees. Just admit it, take your lumps, drop it, and move on. Quit trying to save face over the least relevant issues.

 

[MarkCorrigan]

Likewise.

Oh come on, "I know you are but what am I"? Really?

 

[Vixen]

Vixen, what is the appeal to authority fallacy as you understand it?

Your ludicrous claim 'who do you think you are discussing the Estonia accident when only persons whom I [yourself] deem worthy of discussing it should be allowed to'. You seem to hold yourself as a yardstick but when did you start thinking I should be in any way the same as you?

 

[JayUtah]

Look. I may disapprove of what someone says but I will defend their right to say it. I don't agree with anarchists and anti-vaxxers. I am not going to deny their right to have their view even if it is not one I care for.

This has absolutely nothing to do with what I posted. And you keep falling back to this irrelevant defense time and again.

You're not only defending what Anders Björkman has to say on the subject of sinking ships, you're pretending you're competent to evaluate it and you're trying to tell other people that they should take it as the expert judgment of a qualified engineer and physicist. Literally no one is talking about "anarchists" or "anti-vaxxers."

 

[Andy_Ross]

If you recall, the recommendations in the public inquiry into The Herald of Free Enterprise was that a 'gate' be provided to cover the car deck door as a safety feature. This is what the bow visor is in working practice.

Thanks for your opinion on the EPIRB's. The JAIC however does not back you up.

No, that is not what the bow visor is.

Herald of Free Enterprise had two horizontal opening clamshell doors, one to port and one to starboard. Estonia had a vertical pivoting visor.
Their construction and operation was completely different.
Recommendations from the enquiry made no difference to the construction of the Estonia, it was built and in operation for 7 years before the HOFE sank.