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Tai Chi Chuan: Useful or bogus?

I worked with a guy who made up his own "martial art" style exercise regimen, using a rope and a broom handle as props to aid stretches. He used to do about an hour a day on the helideck of a rig we worked on.
Various people asked him about the routine and he gave them varied answers, telling some he learned it in Korea and others he had it from an elderly sensei in New York. (He had visited neither place). Because I ran on the deck at the same time, I noticed he never did quite the same routine twice. He happily admitted he just made it up every day, doing whatever he felt like. He also made up a different story any time he was asked.

It seemed to keep him in very good shape. I occasionally wonder if he lied to me too and he actually did learn it from some wrinkled ancient master.
 
"Wudang", your comment is pretty irrelevant. I didn't even comment on its specific fighting applications, just how the name got its name.
You didn't even say that, you just talked about stuff you think people should be imagining while they do the movement. Still, it was sufficient to make it quite clear that you don't know what you're talking about.
I think the one you're referring to, typically called Repulsing the Monkey,.. is supposed to imagine that you're a monkey pushing or swinging, not that you're pushing a monkey away.
 
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One of the problems with Taijiquan is that it was so widespread at the time of the so-called Chinese cultural revolution that it was one of the specific arts targeted for destruction. As a result, many competent practitioners simply "disappeared" - either via government action, or in self-preservation.

Some mid to lower-level students escaped to Taiwan and Okinawa; these people were not fully proficient and/or trained in the art - and there was still a strong prevalent attitude of secrecy regarding teaching martial arts from China to anyone not Chinese. As a result, the majority of what made it's way to the west was both incomplete by accident and design. This led to what is (IMHO, rightfully contemptuously) called "Tai Chi" practiced by the majority of the world today.

Eventually, the Chinese government reversed it's posture on Taijiquan (and other arts), which led to a revival of Taijiquan. In typical fashion, however, the Communist Chinese government required that "standardized" forms be created to allow people of any age, in any condition to enjoy the "health" benefits of taijiquan. The remaining knowledgeable practitioner's returned to mainstream life; formed a council; designed the current "modern" forms practiced widely today... and that's pretty much what you see done inside and outside of China these days. These competent practitioners - with the tacit approval of the government - were and are permitted to continue to teach the original art quietly.

Times change, and the so-called "Bamboo Curtain" became a lot more porous... which is why the West is slowly seeing another form of taijiquan emerge. It's a very slow process for a number of reasons - including the resistance of "mainstream" Tai Chi teachers. These teachers - when faced with the real thing - have to either admit they've been teaching a hodge-podge of nonsense and taking money for it all these years, or they have to reject it.

Guess which choice most of them make? :D

So a lot of these teachers of Tai Chi not only continue to teach their "version" of the art... but are actually quite vocal in public and to their students concerning the stuff coming out of China that's at odds with their teachings. And many of these teachers have the ears of long-established magazine publishers, who are more than happy to publish their viewpoint... because, of course, the focus for them is revenue. And that means you need to play to the majority of the readership... who would not be pleased to read that they've been wasting years of their lives learning something bogus.

Anyway, it's not unusual or unreasonable for people like TBK to feel that Taijiquan is garbage; the chances are vastly in favor of them having only been exposed to crap rather than anything effective. I wouldn''t expect them to believe anything else if all of their encounters were of the "float-away-butterfly-I'm-cultivating-my-chi-and-will-be-a-master-in-20-years" variety.

I do, however, respectfully request that MA's like Ken consider the possibllity that their experiences have been shaped by the circumstances outlined above... and that they should keep the option open that they may not have encountered someone who knows the practical art instead of the denatured version widely taught today.
 
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I don't think you need to invoke the old "nasty commies killing the real masters" story to explain it. The fact is it's hard work and the theory attracts dilettantes. The idea that lazy kids can inherit it from hard-working dads has been proven problematic and then you have the fact that a lot of western tai chi came via Cheng man Ching who was a man with delusions of adequacy.
I recall talking to one well-known european teacher who told of visiting China to advance her skills. "They said first I had to learn to move. I have been dancing for 20 years. I know how to move". Which is so spectacularly to miss the point that I couldn't be bothered pursuing it.
 
If you want to learn Tai Chi to look cool, eh... I suppose you can do that just about anywhere. If you want to learn it for health reasons or exercise, I suppose you could find a good teacher if you look a bit. If you want to learn it for fighting, good luck. You're going to have a tough time finding a teacher who can. Lucky for me I did. I have the bruises to prove it. :-)

Sure we talk about 'chi', but the concept is never really defined further than 'energy'. I see it as just paying some f&$%#!@ attention to what you're doing. i.e. "Focus your chi in your hands." = "Pay attention to what you're doing with your hands, idiot. You're going to break a finger if you don't to it right." Most of it is a language barrier issue.

If you want fighting Tai Chi, check out williamccchen.com for a list of teachers in your area. (Yes, it's a plug.) It's Cheng Man Ching's lineage. I don't know about the delusions of adequacy comment by Wudang. I've only studied a couple of arts, but the Tai Chi I'm doing now seems to be a pretty effective fighting system. I can't speak for other styles, but if this is the worst Tai Chi I can find, it's still pretty darn good.

Thanks.
 
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Sorry there are good CMC style teachers and the William Chen student I met in Jasnieres was pretty good. And of course there's Aarvo Tucker who is one of the best and with whom I've done a little Ba Gua and Hsing I.
I painted with too broad a brush.
 
Wudang, No worries. That's easy to do with Tai Chi, especially some of the Yang styles. They do get a bit of a woo-ish reputation. :-)
 
I don't think you need to invoke the old "nasty commies killing the real masters" story to explain it. The fact is it's hard work and the theory attracts dilettantes. The idea that lazy kids can inherit it from hard-working dads has been proven problematic and then you have the fact that a lot of western tai chi came via Cheng man Ching who was a man with delusions of adequacy.
I recall talking to one well-known european teacher who told of visiting China to advance her skills. "They said first I had to learn to move. I have been dancing for 20 years. I know how to move". Which is so spectacularly to miss the point that I couldn't be bothered pursuing it.

Both factors contributed, true. And I love your last point; that's so appropriate and commonplace that reactions like that still amaze me.
 
Re: "Wudang"'s comment

...and then you have the fact that a lot of western tai chi came via Cheng man Ching who was a man with delusions of adequacy.

Actually, from accounts of people who actually knew him and were there (was Docherty?), Zheng Manqing was very modest and truthful with regards to his ability. What is your complaint exactly?

Many of Docherty's complaints re: Zheng Manqing come to "I believe.." and "I was told that..." type of stuff. Contrast that with Robert W. Smith's being there.

It is pretty clear that Docherty's complaints amount to a lot of sour grapes. I might be a complainer too if the whole world did the 37 posture form and very few did "Wudang" taijiquan and people the world over heard of Robert W. Smith but not Dan Docherty.
 
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Re: "Wudang"'s comment



Actually, from accounts of people who actually knew him and were there (was Docherty?), Zheng Manqing was very modest and truthful with regards to his ability. What is your complaint exactly?

Many of Docherty's complaints re: Zheng Manqing come to "I believe.." and "I was told that..." type of stuff. Contrast that with Robert W. Smith's being there.

It is pretty clear that Docherty's complaints amount to a lot of sour grapes. I might be a complainer too if the whole world did the 37 posture form and very few did "Wudang" taijiquan and people the world over heard of Robert W. Smith but not Dan Docherty.

Well you can check the Yang family records and with the Tung family and see the discrepancies between what CMC claimed and what the records show.
And if you think CMC was truthful with regards to his ability "my art did not desert me" and his fight record then you are woefully misinformed.
And if you think that atacking Dan Docherty somehow makes CMC look good you have, as everyone here knows, a lot to learn.
 
Hey, I'm not sure if this is the right place for this, but since it deals with skepticism, I guess it fits here. Anyway...

I've been hearing a lot about Tai Chi lately (seemingly years behind of everyone else on this planet, apparently). I always thought it was just one more way to part someone from their money, but realizing that a fully closed mind is just as worthless as a fully open one, I thought I'd give it a try. Alas, upon realizing one of the forms was entitled "Pushing the Monkey", I fell into a paroxysm of juvenile laughter and could not proceed.

So, I was wondering: does anyone here have any kind of source they can point me to that would answer my question? Lacking that (or in case this devolves into a semantic free-for-all), does anyone know where I can go to learn some of this stuff so I can try it out for myself, see if it works? I mean, I like to check out the woo stuff for myself instead of trusting other people's opinions, and it's worked so far with magic with a K (it's crap), ghost hunting (more crap) and astral travelling (this one's true but, alas, I left my body lying in kind of an undignified position and have been too embarrased to return. I'm currently being channeled by a school janitor, which is not much of an improvement) (I'm joking, it's crap). Of course, I'd like this introductory stuff to be free, since there's no way I'm paying any amount of money for something that probably just makes you look silly.

Heh. Pushing the Monkey. ...DAMN! I thought I'd gone past that already!

Most of the Tai Chi you see in the West is a gentle exercise developed through the 20th century, based on a hardcore martial art of several schools and lineages, all deriving ultimately (depending on who you believe) from either ancient Daoist cultivation, or the martial art of a specific farming community, the Chen clan, in China.

What's commonly seen is a more or less watered-down offspring of the Long Form (continuous, connected exercise) of the earliest "forms" of Taiji, which were sort of like compendia of all the techniques on the art, strung together in a way designed to develop the right kind of co-ordination through repetitive exercise.

As a martial art, it was widely recognised in the China of the late 19th century and early 20th, as one of the most effective martial arts of China, a sort of national treasure - this is through matches of competitive skill, not in theory - in those days the spectacle of a famous martial artist setting up a podium in a public place and challenging all comers was not uncommon.

The principles of Taijiquan (Taiji fist, Taiji being the famous Yin/Yang diagram) that make it (and a few other arts with similar principles) stand out from the majority of other martial arts are twofold: in terms of body development (how power is generated) and in terms of actual overall fighting strategy.

In terms of body development, power is generated by a way of using the body that's rather unusual and has to be trained for a while independently before any really serious martial application of it can be considered. It's a complex new type of co-ordination that requires training out of the normal habitual way of moving one has picked up, to a way of moving in which the body's frame is continuously controlled as a unit, any movement of any attacking or defending part of the body being at the same time a movement of the whole body, utilising clever leverage principles which take advantage of the solidity of the ground, and transmit it through efficiently aligned bones, using the minimum necessary muscular energy. This hyper-efficiency makes Taijiquan eminently suitable for combat in war, which requires tremendous endurance.

In terms of strategy, Taijiquan makes use, again, of a "soft" or "yielding" type of strategy. The idea is to get in contact with the opponent in a way such that the opponent can't feel your intent, but you can feel theirs, through their body, and through their body's connection to the ground. The Taiji fighter then breaks their opponents connection to the ground, rendering them without the ability to gain any leverage, and therefore helpless, and easily killable by a type of focussed, explosive use of force called "fajin". (The aim of most Chinese martial arts was originally to incapacitate or kill the opponent as quickly as possible. A Bagua practitioner of the old school recently said in an interview: "In Bagua, one wants to make the opponent spit blood".) A poetic description of this combination of "softness" and "hardness" is "like a needle in cotton". Some poetic ways of what it feels like to fight a Taiji fighter I've seen are: like trying to push a beach ball under the water directly from above; like fighting a boa constrictor.

There is another interesting aspect to Taiji power than clever leverage though, and that is the use of the body's connective tissue, the fascia, as an additive element to the force generated through leverage from the ground. Training in these aspects of the art involving the fascia produce feelings in the body which have led credence to the idea of "qi" being an external force. What's actually happening is that control of the fascia (which has recently been discovered to have some muscle fibers embedded, and other hitherto-unrealised interesting properties which might be responsible for some of the documented analgesic effects of acupuncture) is acquired through a control of aspects of the autonomic nervous system, requiring a certain type of mental state akin to hypnosis. (Hence the requirement for some meditative training in many of these types of "internal" arts.) In the course of this training, one sometimes feels one's body to be held or moved in a kind of "magnetic field". It's easy to see how people could think this a real thing, but the correct explanation is probably more along the lines I've given above: it's an odd brain trick that makes the body in some sense feel "alien".

Needless to say, you won't get this kind of stuff from your local mall, but it's the sort of training that people can get if they look for it: there are perhaps dozens of teachers of the "real thing" scattered throughout the world, and concentrated in a few places in China, and maybe a few thousand serious practitioners.
 
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Yet, Taiji doesn't do very well in MMA competition.

No, Tai Chi is just an exercise to help keep old people happy.
 
Most of the Tai Chi you see in the West is a gentle exercise developed through the 20th century, based on a hardcore martial art of several schools and lineages, all deriving ultimately (depending on who you believe) from either ancient Daoist cultivation, or the martial art of a specific farming community, the Chen clan, in China.

The Chen village being very close to locations where Shaolin was known to be practiced, as well as postures looking almost identical to Shaolin, hints that the Chen family created it from Shaolin.
 

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