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Tai Chi Chuan: Useful or bogus?

This is because (as I said above) "open platform" competitions (the Chinese equivalent of MMA) were banned in China by the Communists.
Shame. We used to do "lei tai" in my training years back but then we switched to Kuo Shou Institute rules (Chinese govt approved as I recall) which basically suck - too kickboxy and points-oriented. I prefered the basic "You're off the platform, you lose".
 
Heya Wudang ... is this thread a hit of deja vu or what?

Some folks can't understand why anyone would want to study a martial art that doesn't directly apply to (fill in the blank of your favorite reason for studying martial arts here).

Others just like to argue and still others are just the martial arts equivalent of fan-boys.

Bottom line: If you enjoy it, it's worthwhile.
 
Heya Wudang ... is this thread a hit of deja vu or what?

Some folks can't understand why anyone would want to study a martial art that doesn't directly apply to (fill in the blank of your favorite reason for studying martial arts here).

Others just like to argue and still others are just the martial arts equivalent of fan-boys.

Bottom line: If you enjoy it, it's worthwhile.

With the sensible caveat that the don't delude themselves that they're practicing an effective martial art if they're not, exactly.

I enjoy MMA competitions (I have a few UFC and K1 DVDs and the like) and I think the players are awesome, but MMA enthusiasts who claim that MMA is equivalent to a "real world test" are deluding themselves. MMA rules are usually quite complex and restrictive and in selecting some set of restrictions, will automatically favour one particular style of fighting over another.

(For example, some of the variations in MMA rules I've seen are designed to favour avoiding the kind of deadlock and "boring" ground fighting that occurs if the rules are skewed more towards ground fighting; some are skewed to encourage the participants to do more stand-up stuff, or to make the fights shorter, etc., etc. The only really "real world" test of fighting that isn't outright street fighting is the kind of illegal matches in which there are no rules except don't poke peoples' eyes out and don't destroy their family jewels - which is what the Chinese "lei tai" competitions had.)

However, MMA-ists are right to be sceptical until something is shown; and one can hardly blame them for mocking traditional styles as the showing of traditional styles has been mostly (not wholly, but mostly) abysmal in MMA. But I (and other enthusiasts of traditional styles) would say that this is because true traditional styles have hardly been shown. What's been typical is that con-artists and deluded people have pretended to be teaching authentic traditional styles, and hapless geeks and MA nerds have been taken in.

This is dangerously close to the "no true Scotsman" logical move, I'm well aware. I can only plead that I, personally, have always maintained this standard and this line of argument, and have always believed that most of what passes for traditional style teaching in the West (and even to some extent in China!) has been poor, and that authentic traditional teaching is very, very rare, and extremely unlikely to be found in one's local mall in the the US or West generally (for example - though one might be very, very lucky, and live in one of the areas where the handful of traditional teachers from China who live in the West have settled).
 
The point that some martial arts started out with water as the main ingredient seems to be lost on you. You seem to think all martial arts were created equal and that's as absurd as the notion that all ideas are equal.
you don't seem to know much about Tai CHi but seem to think your an expert. Your not in any standpoint to say where tai chi started because to you UFC is where everything started. I am not interested in other martial arts in this thread. I know you seem to think winning MMA matches is all martial arts about.
 
My analogy is accurate simply because how and what a person trains to do directly effects how they will perform. To say that all martial-art systems is the same simply ignores that fact. Also, some martial arts do not train to fight, Tai Chi happens to be one of them.
No one is saying Tai Chi currently will win MMA matches. Your arguing with yourself. Many martial arts are not training to win MMA matches. The whole point of the thread is that few people actually teach the fighting methods of tai chi. Even than they are not training people to win MMA matches.
 
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Bottom line: If you enjoy it, it's worthwhile.

Nail. Head. Hit.

Who cares which martial art is "best", or who would win in a street fight. If you like doing it, then do it, if you don't, don't.
 
yeah but thats not good enough for thai. He has to prove that if your MA doesn't seem to be represented in UFC than it isn't worthwhile.
 
With the sensible caveat that the don't delude themselves that they're practicing an effective martial art if they're not, exactly.

Then we have to pin down 'effective'. :rolleyes:

I've done 'combatives' (professionally as a cop and as a soldier), I've done no-holds barred (back before the term MMA was coined), and I've also done classical Japanese budo (sword, stick and jujutsu) for 30+ years. They're all fun (OK, the combatives thing was fun training, not applying), and there's something to be said for competition as a test of certain facets of martial skill.

However, what's effective for TBK, good performance in MMA matches, is not necessairly effective for the troops I work with here (doing Modern Army Combatives -- they do some competition, BTW, but their training for the field is different from their training for the ring) or for the old guy like me who loves to swing a sword and study the intricacies of how the classical Japanese sword, stick and body arts developed and were used.

In one sense, effective for me means swinging a 3-foot razorblade efficiently and effectively in a manner designed to deal with folks using similar implements. I'd put my blade up against most folks' figure-4 anytime, but we'd have to change the rules a bit!

When I was doing full-contact competitions, it meant getting my game on and delivering more damage than I took.

When I was in real-world situations, it meant doing whatever worked to get me out of the situation and do my best to apprehend or defeat with extreme prejudice the other fellow.

All three points of view are perfectly valid, from a martial arts perspective, depending on how you define martial arts for yourself.

Where I can agree - to some degree - with TBK and some of his ilk is that non-MMA'ers who step into a MMA ring without proper preparation are gonna be toast.

There's a lot to be learned from those folks, but what they're doing is only one facet of something much broader, and people like TBK can't seem to see anything outside their narrow lanes of experience.
 
I have trained in combatives and BJJ. I can see why BJJ is effective in the ring but would be less effective in the street. However the combatives were helped by my knowing BJJ.
 
Then we have to pin down 'effective'. :rolleyes:

Great post, I agree. I was thinking vaguely of the kind of general effectiveness most people who do MA would expect - something like, be able to handle themselves in the average non-lethal pub brawl, or be able to hurt or stop an assailant or mugger enough to get away or call the police, or enough to defend someone weaker than them being attacked on the street. Those kinds of moderately dangerous situations where the stuff MA teaches might be effective, are the sorts of situations the average person will expect to be able to handle from their training. And I think most arts that include "full contact" training will be able to give that; MMA guys are probably right that the kinds of "traditional" arts that only have forms and arranged drills, will not be as effective.

However, part of my point that I've been labouring over above is that a "traditional" art that's taught that way isn't actually traditional, it's probably fake. All the authentic traditional Chinese styles, to my knowledge (mainly from amateur study, with some small training in Karate, BJJ and Taiji), train with some degree of free fighting and full contact. Chen Taiji for example requires a long period of solo form training, true, but it's always understood that once the student has a grasp of the body mechanics, he will progress through push-hands and drills, through free-form push hands and other types of drills, to free sparring, and then (having meanwhile added weapons forms) weapons drills and weapons free sparring. The aim in Chen is eventually to be able to handle weapons - various kinds of swords, long staff, "Big Knife" (pike), etc.

(Chen Fake, the guy who made Chen style famous in Beijing during the 30s actually used his long staff in the process of defending a village, "7 samurai" style, from some bandits who had been bothering it. His method was to set up a defence on a bridge to the village that the bandits were going to cross. He ran the first few guys through with his staff, which understandably discouraged the rest of the bandits. So Taiji was effective in that kind of context, at least!)

Another point an MMA person would say is that to be effective in this general way, the style has to be put up against other styles. It's no good just being good at Taiji versus another Taiji player. And of course this is the great thing about MMA, the cross-training. But in China up until Communist times, schools and styles did indeed meet each other in open platform competitions, and people from different styles did share their knowledge (to a degree compatible with the secrecy surrounding those bread-and-butter arts - i.e. the knowledge was shared at quite a high level, by high level practitioners from various styles who respected each other). However, MMA still wins on this front, because the training is done in the open, Western way, almost a scientific way, where things are openly discussed and compared.

Interestingly, though this is good for the progress of knowledge as a whole, it's not necessarily good for the individual styles (look at how BJJ is now common knowledge, so BJJ players no longer have an "edge" in competition, like they did when they ripped through the early UFC).
 
The system or the training?

How it's trained is part of the system.

Same old crap. Look, if most of the thai boxing taught in the west was some kind of boxercise, would that be thai boxing's fault? Or the teacher's fault?
You've been told repeatedly of tai chi classes that teach people to fight. I've even mentioned one who competed vale tudo in the uk.

Those tai chi fighters are a rare case. Most tai chi is taught as a slow exercise. It's usefulness in fighting isn't very well established either. How is that uk tai chi fighter doing in the vale tudo circuit? How many other systems is he training in? I have the suspicion that the guy has trained tai chi but is actually training boxing, kickboxing + grappling.
 
Those tai chi fighters are a rare case. Most tai chi is taught as a slow exercise. =
Thats what we have been saying!:mad:

There are very few who teach the actual martial art side much less aim it towards MMA style fighting. Those classes where fighting is taught it has not been oriented towards MMA. It could be but up to this point it has not. Many stand up arts lost to BJJ in the beginning of UFC but now that does not happan as they have orientated the training to take that into account. People like myself are trying to overcome the years of new age b.s to get the good stuff out so those who wish to apply the tai chi to the MMA mix can.
 
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How it's trained is part of the system.

Those tai chi fighters are a rare case. Most tai chi is taught as a slow exercise. It's usefulness in fighting isn't very well established either. How is that uk tai chi fighter doing in the vale tudo circuit? How many other systems is he training in? I have the suspicion that the guy has trained tai chi but is actually training boxing, kickboxing + grappling.
Look Ken, do not just read one sentence at a time. That's what makes people think you're thick and incapable of following an argument.
The tai chi chuan system has the slow hand form as a very small part of it. The crap that most westerners see as tai chi is nothing but the hand form. It's like training in boxing but just doing shadow boxing but not bag work or road work. The defining characteristic of a martial art is not the form, it's the basic training that should be expressed through the form.
 
How many other systems is he training in? I have the suspicion that the guy has trained tai chi but is actually training boxing, kickboxing + grappling.

That's a good question, and I know what you mean, I've heard of Chinese MA stylists competing, but when you hear what they do, they do cross-training like you say.

However, if he's learning the real thing he's learning all these, because Taijiquan is an all-round MA, in its techniques as encoded in the Long Form it is already a distillation of a mixture of the best of Chinese martial arts of the 17th century, compiled by a great general of the time, and it includes striking with any and all parts of the body from all sorts of angles, and a hell of a lot of locks and throws (although no ground fighting to my knowledge - it has ways of dealing with people who try to take the fight to the ground - but doesn't include ground skills AFAIK).
 
Look Ken, do not just read one sentence at a time. That's what makes people think you're thick and incapable of following an argument.
The tai chi chuan system has the slow hand form as a very small part of it. The crap that most westerners see as tai chi is nothing but the hand form. It's like training in boxing but just doing shadow boxing but not bag work or road work. The defining characteristic of a martial art is not the form, it's the basic training that should be expressed through the form.

And furthermore, the "tai chi chuan" system is really just a relatively small subsystem of the entire "tai chi" martial art that includes staff, sword, dagger, and a number of other weapons forms.

Complaining about "tai chi" on the basis of some of the teaching of (some of) the hand training is like listening to five bars of the tympani part of a symphony, and then complaining that the composer sucks.
 
How it's trained is part of the system.
How is that uk tai chi fighter doing in the vale tudo circuit? How many other systems is he training in? I have the suspicion that the guy has trained tai chi but is actually training boxing, kickboxing + grappling.
MMA = Mixed Martial Arts. That means knowing more than 1 martial art. I think if someone trained in Tai Chi is competing in MMA, there is a good chance they know boxing, judo, muy thai, bjj or shooto.
 
I think if someone trained in Tai Chi is competing in MMA, there is a good chance they know boxing, judo, muy thai, bjj or shooto.

I agree, and there is also a very good chance that they don't actually use any of the Tai Chi.
 
, but MMA enthusiasts who claim that MMA is equivalent to a "real world test" are deluding themselves.

You mean there aren't rounds, rest times, and people to put vasoline on you and give you water in real life fights?
 
, and people like TBK can't seem to see anything outside their narrow lanes of experience.

He also won't admit that wrestling and muay thai are TMAs, very traditional TMAs. I always have to remind him of that when he starts talking about TMAs being this or being that.
 

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