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"Magic" Tai Chi Powers

That's your call to make. I doubt you'll ever get everyone here to agree on anything, much less a final protocol, but take the criticism you get here and use what makes sense and discard the rest. Again, the work you do now with or without the help of forum members might be rejected by the Fa Jin guys or by the testing organizations at any time. Be prepared for the possibility of that rejection.

Ward

P.S. Looking forward to a second draft.
 
I see lots of problems with the protocol.

Why do 10 “actual” attempts? Does the Demonstrator have to successfully move all 10 in order to pass? So as soon as 1 “actual” attempt fails, the applicant fails? What about the “fake” attempts? If the Demonstrator moves the person on one of the fake attempts, does the applicant fail? What if the Demonstrator claims that he is such a powerful Tai Chi master that sometimes in that pose his Fa Jin goes off even when he doesn’t want it to?

Exactly how far back does a person have to be moved to count as a pass of a “actual” test? How is this measured? How is it determined whether or not both feet came off the ground? Do they have to be off the ground at the same time? What if the person is pushed back, but instead of hopping they sort of leap with one foot and then the other, but at some point both feet are off the ground; does that count?

How are the random subjects selected? If the subjects don’t know what it is that is expected to be done to them, how do you make sure none of them have health or physical issues that could cause them problems, whether the Fa Jin works or not? How do you make sure that none of the “randomly” selected subjects are not in cahoots with the Demonstrator?

And as Horatius pointed out, if any of the subjects are secretly in league with the Demonstrator, limiting noises that could be used as communication is pointless. They could easily come up with all kinds of complex methods of communication that could not be detected: looking in a certain direction, touching a certain place on the body, bending a finger in a certain way, placing the feet in a certain direction, moving an arm or a leg a certain way, or any combination of such things that could be different for each trial.

I appreciate the work you have done here, but it is better to keep it simple. All you need is one reliable subject who you know won’t cheat. Then the test is simple. Really all you need is a narrow cardboard box, a board, and a tape measure.

The box is placed between the Demonstrator and the Subject. The Demonstrator has to stay on his side of the box (and of course the Subject will stay on his side). The purpose is to limit the Demonstrator ‘s forward movement so that he does use any “illegal moves” such as just barreling into the Subject like a defensive lineman or trying to grab the Subject and pick him up and throw him backward. Any simple barrier would do: small table, stool, chair, trash can, fence, or even just a bar at about waist height.

The other element is the board. About 3/4 inch thick, 3 long, and 6 inches high. This is set up at, say, 6 inches behind the Subject’s feet. This little hurdle is our measuring device. The objective of the test is for the Demonstrator to stand on his side of the barrier and turn the Subject into a hoppy toad and bounce him up and over the hurdle. To pass the test, he must move the Subject’s feet to the other side of the hurdle without knocking the hurdle over.

That’s it. The Demonstrator could have maybe 3 tries at 30 seconds each. Maybe a couple minutes break between each try. And, of course, before the test the Demonstrator could work with one of his students to make sure the set up and his Fa Jin and life force energy and so forth is working properly.

And I still like my idea of getting the Subject’s toes off the ground. Maybe get another one of those 3/4 inch boards and have the Subject stand with his toes up on the board. That would make it very difficult to even involuntarily jump back over the hurdle.

Great stuff matey, lots of things to consider:

Q: Why do 10 “actual” attempts? Does the Demonstrator have to successfully move all 10 in order to pass? So as soon as 1 “actual” attempt fails, the applicant fails?

A: The protocol says that 10 actual attempts are made and a successfull test is 6 "hits" out of 10 ;)

Q: If the Demonstrator moves the person on one of the fake attempts, does the applicant fail? What if the Demonstrator claims that he is such a powerful Tai Chi master that sometimes in that pose his Fa Jin goes off even when he doesn’t want it to?

A: Fair point. The idea with the coin toss is, as correctly pointed out above, to further randomize the test subjects to minimize the possible skewed results from "stooges" infiltrating the test sample. That the purpose so is there a better way??

Q: How are the random subjects selected?

A: Yup good question. If the test was say at a university it could come from the student body. Any suggestions??

Q: If the subjects don’t know what it is that is expected to be done to them, how do you make sure none of them have health or physical issues that could cause them problems, whether the Fa Jin works or not?

A: A pre-test screening questionnaire could work. Or else just recruit a local football team ;)

Q: How do you make sure that none of the “randomly” selected subjects are not in cahoots with the Demonstrator?

A: Firstly by not letting the Demonstrator know where the test subjects are being being source from before the test. And again, even if one or two cohorts get through the door, the coin toss would further randomize results.

Q: Exactly how far back does a person have to be moved to count as a pass of a “actual” test? How is this measured?

A: Under "Definition of Fajin" in the draft it says quite clearly "and send him backwards 3-4 feet". This could be measured with pre-test markings on the floor.

Q: How is it determined whether or not both feet came off the ground? Do they have to be off the ground at the same time? What if the person is pushed back, but instead of hopping they sort of leap with one foot and then the other, but at some point both feet are off the ground; does that count?

A: Michael Phillips is quite clear that he "can instantly shear the opponent off their feet, both feet clear off the ground in a single moment". Thus both feet leave the ground at the same time and land at the same time. A side-on camera angle will be sufficient to determine this. Both feet have to be clearly off the floor at the same time.

I appreciate the simplicity of having only one test subject. But how do you know with 100% that they wont be compliant? Perhaps recruiting MMA fighters like they did when investigating Tom Cameron (search "The Human Stun Gun Investigation" on Youtube). MMA lads can be trusted to "keep it real".

The barrier idea is fine but I don't see that it is necessary, and the hurdle idea is to much of a hazard risk in terms of the subject stumbling backwards accidentally.

Cheers for your input matey, keep those objective thoughts rolling :D
 
I would say do not let those who are claiming this isn't a purely bio-mechanical process, create the definitions.

Have them produce a force against a measuring device.

Get a mechanical source to produce the same levels of force.

Have both sources apply said force against test subjects and see if the claimed observable phenomenon occurs.

Would be nice if it was that easy. Intrinsic with the claim is that the fajiner actually projects an energy into the opponent (Jin) which reacts with their nervous system to create the effect. In this sense it has been likened to an electric shock. So it is "said" that it only works against flesh and bone not mechanical instruments.

My wife, bless her, replied "Well maybe they should try and fajin a horse !! ""

:D
 
I forgot to mention, don't read the skeptical comments in the article and don't look at the videos where the tai chi masters get their butts kicked. Only look at the videos where the masters demonstrate their tai chi power. Those videos prove the undeniable paranormal power of tai chi. The other videos in the link are fake.

LOL did you just say "Don't look at the evidence that proves them wrong but just focus on the hogwash BS claims" ???

Have I missed some sublimely subtle humor here ??

:boggled:
 
Not a bad start. Has Michael Phillips already agreed to this specific protocol or has he just agreed to be tested in general?

Also, these types of tests should have self-evident results that do not require "adjudicators." There might be some people who can do measurments, etc., but there should be no judges who make subjective decisions. The results should be obvious to everyone in the room and everyone watching a live video feed or subequent recording.

Also, there would have to be a more exact agreement about what is a "hit." Actually your description of a "hit" is pretty good, but it should probably include what is not a hit, as well. It should be made clear that stepping back doesn't count, hopping back two feet doesn't count, etc. This prevents applicants (if they should fail the test) from successfully retro-fitting misses into hits. They still try, but it helps a lot if they've already agreed to what counts as a miss.

I also think it will be hard to find test subjects who will be willing to go in as blind as you are suggesting. I know if I were a test subject and I were asked to walk into a room and touch a man I'd never met (and who was standing in a strange posture) lightly on the forearm, I'd be worried that I was in store for some sort of electric shock or something. I'd be extremely apprehensive.

So those are things that I think need to be worked out, but I still think you have a fairly reasonable start, assuming the demonstrators are on board, which is not clear at this point.

Ward

Excellent points which will be taken into consideration ;)
 
Having the assistant stand on pressure sensors should do the trick. Heck, even the right sort of shock-absorbing foam could probably be used to eliminate fakery.

Pressure sensors are a fair thought ... adds to the complexity and difficulty of setting up a test ... but still a fair thought ;)
 
Pressure sensors are a fair thought ... adds to the complexity and difficulty of setting up a test ... but still a fair thought ;)

No, it simplifies things greatly. Collusion is not longer a concern. No coin flips. None of that. Either the assistant is lifted up then back by some seemingly paranormal force or he jumps. The sensors would detect which.
 
LOL did you just say "Don't look at the evidence that proves them wrong but just focus on the hogwash BS claims" ???

Have I missed some sublimely subtle humor here ??

:boggled:



Yeah, you did. Happens a lot around here!



Would be nice if it was that easy. Intrinsic with the claim is that the fajiner actually projects an energy into the opponent (Jin) which reacts with their nervous system to create the effect. In this sense it has been likened to an electric shock. So it is "said" that it only works against flesh and bone not mechanical instruments.

My wife, bless her, replied "Well maybe they should try and fajin a horse !! ""

:D


No, it simplifies things greatly. Collusion is not longer a concern. No coin flips. None of that. Either the assistant is lifted up then back by some seemingly paranormal force or he jumps. The sensors would detect which.


Problem with the sensors idea: if the claim is as above, that they're somehow causing an involuntary reaction in the target's "nervous system", then they actually are "jumping", they're just doing it involuntarily because of the "energy". So you'd expect the sensors to detect a jumping action.



Perhaps we should expand the pool of targets: keep 10 of the random people, but then also do it with 10 of his own students, and 10 selected skeptical martial artists. His 10 students would establish a baseline of what it is he is really doing (establish a profile of what the sensors "should" output), then let him try it with the other 20 people (but don't tell him who is who). See if there's any detectable differences in reaction and/or sensor output between the three groups.
 
What "jolt"? Watch part 2 at 0:46. When Phillips moves his back, the guys arms bend, then he jumps. If he had kept his feet flat on the floor, all that would have happened would have been that his arms would have bent a little bit. There is no “jolt” there to jump away from.
If you are claiming that the teacher is standing absolutely still and not applying force in any way shape or form, then we are looking at 2 different things.
 
I think the demonstrator would be able to tell who had martial arts training and who didn't fairly easily. I expect there'd be a number of "tells" that a martial arts student would have based on how they walked and carried themselves and even their stance when they touched the forearm. I'd think an experienced teacher would be able to spot them from a mile away.

Ward
 
If I understand the claim correctly the force applied is said to be irresistible. The target is lifted up and projected backward without any effort on his part. There should be no need for the targets to be ignorant of the purpose and details of the test, only that they not try to assist the demonstrator.
Why not use members of the testing organization who will consciously resist the effort. If the power is real it will work anyway.
 
Why not use members of the testing organization who will consciously resist the effort. If the power is real it will work anyway.



The problem there is you open up the possibility of George Dillman-like excuses about why it didn't work. "Oh, because you used nothing but trained Bullshido forum members, they unconsciously knew the trick to deflect the Magic Tai Chi Power!"

We wouldn't buy that line, but others might, so we have to design the test to try to eliminate that excuse.
 
Seems like a cheap sort of martial art that can be defeated simply by wanting to! :)
 
It's not cheap at all. Just ask Mr. Dillman!
Ahh yes... 'Light Force'. as in lightening the customer's wallets.

Remember this is a mixture of show biz/circus tricks, building a congregation of followers, cowing the superstitious, and outright scamming.

Somewhere at the bottom is a real physical factor of at least a minimal effect, but the job is to make it look like magic.
 
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A recent video by Michael Phillips ... search Youtube:

"Michael Phillips 2011 youtube video"

And another proponent of fajin Adam Mizner

"Adam Mizner Fajin demo at the Texas School of Tai Chi 2010"
 
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A recent video by Michael Phillips ... search Youtube:

"Michael Phillips 2011 youtube video"

And another proponent of fajin Adam Mizner

"Adam Mizner Fajin demo at the Texas School of Tai Chi 2010"
You do realize that not everyone doing Taiji and talking about jin is talking about mystical energy forces don't you? Only 99% of them are. :wink:

Since I have no clue as to who Michael Phillips is, and he's got about an hour of stuff up on You Tube (15 minutes under your last post alone), would you specify exactly where he in particular says mystical energy forces lift people off the ground with no bio-mechanical factors? A time stamp or website would be nice.
 
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Seems like a cheap sort of martial art that can be defeated simply by wanting to! :)

That was my feeling on this. A combat technique which only works on people who don't oppose you seems to lack any real value.
 
Since I have no clue as to who Michael Phillips is, and he's got about an hour of stuff up on You Tube (15 minutes under your last post alone), would you specify exactly where he in particular says mystical energy forces lift people off the ground with no bio-mechanical factors? A time stamp or website would be nice.

I'm not sure if you are trolling or joking or haven't watched the videos or what. You clearly have some “clue as to who Michael Phillips is” from your 2nd post in this thread:

If those videos are the Michael Phillips ones, 'bounce jin' and so on are real things.


As far as "no bio-mechanical factors":

Mysteries of Tai Chi Chuan - Part 1 of 3, time stamp 8:44.

In case you think this is a case of bio-mechanics I'm using, I'm going to...if you grab a chair...I'm going to put myself in a chair and sit down and pick up my two feet. So you can see I’m not using a system of bars and levers, or something, or some normal bio-mechanical thing.


And throughout this video series he speaks of the "mystery” of Tai Chi, and the “energy” and being able to “lift” the person off the ground. Phillips even explains (Part 1, 6:50) that this is not just applying force that pushes somebody over where they stumble back, but rather actually where

“both feet are sheared off the ground at the same second, there is clear space under the person’s feet, and the person lands in approximately the same position that they take off. They don’t go all “blooey” and twisted up [makes motions like someone being pushed back at the shoulders and stepping back]. It’s so quick [finger snap] that they don’t have time to readjust, and so strong that their nervous system pretty much freezes them in place.”
 
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"Methods used The test is structured as close to a double-blind as possible. The main test subject, referred to as the Demonstrator, will be attempting to perform fajin on randomly selected, unknowing and unprepared test subjects within a controlled environment.

...

"Test subjects would be asked a simply lead-in questionnaire as to their knowledge and experience of martial arts, in particular Chinese IMA. This will be used to correlate post-test data."



Asking them questions about martial arts is preparing them.

I'm pretty sure I'd be nervous about any approach from a stranger if I stepped into that room after being asked such questions, making it highly likely that I'd jump back - no paranormal powers would be required. :)
 

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