has anyone acutally been killed in satanic ritual abuse

[Checkmite]

The thing about satanists is that they're all "self-styled"; including what has been referred to as "LaVeyans". LaVey wrote a book which described his own personal "Satanic" theosophy and ritual, but that doesn't make his satanist club more or less "authentic" or authoritative than any other group of self-styled "satanists".

 

[ddt]

This woman claimed her child has killed in a satanic ritual abuse http://www.ubm1.org/sunshine.pdf has there been anyone who actually died from satanic ritual abuse

That's a very long PDF, 130 pages. Can't you summarize it? First of all, a couple of questions:

1) has the writer been treated by a therapist? If yes, which?
2) is there any evidence she had a child at all, apart from her say-so?
3) if yes, have the remains been uncovered and is there evidence of an unnatural death?

In the cases of supposed massive satanic conspiracies, the evidence is usually 'recovered memories', or coerced witness statements from children. There have been thousands of such cases, and they tend to have similar characteristics. The main element they have in common is that there is never any corroborating evidence of any kind. That doesn't preclude totally innocent people being given lengthy prison sentences, however. There are people in jail now who are extremely unlikely to have done anything whatsoever wrong.

The "recovered memory" movement is extremely controversial. It's a matter of principle for many people to accept that the experiences of people with recovered memories should be accepted as real. This is in spite of overwhelming evidence that they are not. Recovered memories invariably relate to the prejudices of the "therapist" involved. If he's of a particular kind, they will involve alien abductions and probing.

Yes. There is a group of therapists who believe in "recovered memories". These therapists invariably find "recovered memories" with a large percentage of their patients, while other therapists have never been able to find them. Invariably, these "recovered memories" involve incest and other forms of (sexual) child abuse. The stories of these recovered memories have never been corroborated by other sources. Yes, I think the concept is bunk, and that these "memories" have been implanted by the therapists.

A subset of the "recovered memories" therapists have added a dose of "satanic abuse" on top of the stories. These stories found particularly resonance with strands within American Evangelicals. It's never become popular, thankfully, outside of the USA.

There has been one notable case in the Netherlands: Yolanda, a 23-old girl from the small town of Epe, accused not only her parents of incest and satanic rituals, but about anyone who was someone in her town - the mayor, the police commissioner, the notary, etc. She also claimed on primetime TV that she had had half a dozen children before she was 18, who were grabbed out of her hands directly after birth and sacrificed in a satanic ritual before her eyes; and half a dozen or so more abortions. You do the math. Unfortunately, some people have actually been convicted on her stories - her borderline retarded father was imprisoned for some years, and two guys actually still are locked up in psych ward.

In Belgium, in the course of the investigations in the Dutroux case, and the nation-wide panic about paedophiles, a "witness X1", Regina Louf, came forward and claimed in secretive investigations that there was a wide network of child abusers who employed satanic rituals, and which consisted of many powerful in Belgian politics, finance and industry. She led the team which investigated this on a wild goose chase through the whole of Belgium, but none of the allegations could be corroborated.

So yes, recovered memories and ritual satanic abuse often involve victims, but not the accuser, but the accused who wind up in the police investigations and sometimes even in prison.

 

[wakawakawaka]

That's a very long PDF, 130 pages. Can't you summarize it? First of all, a couple of questions:

1) has the writer been treated by a therapist? If yes, which?
2) is there any evidence she had a child at all, apart from her say-so?
3) if yes, have the remains been uncovered and is there evidence of an unnatural death?


Yes. There is a group of therapists who believe in "recovered memories". These therapists invariably find "recovered memories" with a large percentage of their patients, while other therapists have never been able to find them. Invariably, these "recovered memories" involve incest and other forms of (sexual) child abuse. The stories of these recovered memories have never been corroborated by other sources. Yes, I think the concept is bunk, and that these "memories" have been implanted by the therapists.

A subset of the "recovered memories" therapists have added a dose of "satanic abuse" on top of the stories. These stories found particularly resonance with strands within American Evangelicals. It's never become popular, thankfully, outside of the USA.

There has been one notable case in the Netherlands: Yolanda, a 23-old girl from the small town of Epe, accused not only her parents of incest and satanic rituals, but about anyone who was someone in her town - the mayor, the police commissioner, the notary, etc. She also claimed on primetime TV that she had had half a dozen children before she was 18, who were grabbed out of her hands directly after birth and sacrificed in a satanic ritual before her eyes; and half a dozen or so more abortions. You do the math. Unfortunately, some people have actually been convicted on her stories - her borderline retarded father was imprisoned for some years, and two guys actually still are locked up in psych ward.

In Belgium, in the course of the investigations in the Dutroux case, and the nation-wide panic about paedophiles, a "witness X1", Regina Louf, came forward and claimed in secretive investigations that there was a wide network of child abusers who employed satanic rituals, and which consisted of many powerful in Belgian politics, finance and industry. She led the team which investigated this on a wild goose chase through the whole of Belgium, but none of the allegations could be corroborated.

So yes, recovered memories and ritual satanic abuse often involve victims, but not the accuser, but the accused who wind up in the police investigations and sometimes even in prison.

There seems to be pictures of her kid in the PDF and she does mention about the body being recouvered and something about hatians and voodoo.. and no she doesnt really talk about therapists, not even too many names for that matter

 

[Roma]

Okay, this is how it was explained to me by my former psychiatrist Dr.Colin Ross after he came back from his dissociative identities disorders convention back in the 1990's, he said to me:

"The reason no one ever finds the bodies of the babies killed during those satanic rituals is because the babies bodies are beamed up aboard space ships and raised by aliens until they reach the age of 18, then they are beamed back down and given jobs within the CIA to form a New World Order. Those babies were conceived previously during sexual satanic rituals so there's a whole "looping" thing going on here with the impregnation of humans with aliens and the coming New World Order."

It's a CIA conspiracy of course

I swear I'm not making this up :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qL4XB03Bb68

http://www.fmsfonline.org/mpdsra.html

 

[ddt]

There seems to be pictures of her kid in the PDF and she does mention about the body being recouvered and something about hatians and voodoo.. and no she doesnt really talk about therapists, not even too many names for that matter

Seems to be? Didn't you read it yourself? But you want us to read it, or what?

Oh, I did read the title page and the dedication, stopped at the foreword (eh, "forward" ). The many references to Christ sent up a red flag with me, due to the connection between SRA and certain Evangelicals.

 

[westprog]

The thing about satanists is that they're all "self-styled"; including what has been referred to as "LaVeyans". LaVey wrote a book which described his own personal "Satanic" theosophy and ritual, but that doesn't make his satanist club more or less "authentic" or authoritative than any other group of self-styled "satanists".

I may be wrong, but I think that most of the examples of satanist murder groups don't involve people becoming lured into their local satanist chapter, and brought through a succession of rituals, which lead to them becoming corrupt and evil, and finally taking part in horrendous deeds. What seems to happen is that one or more psychopaths get together, and because they like to hurt people, they decide to call themselves satanists. Sometimes they read a bit of Crowley, but mostly it's a whim.

 

[westprog]

That's a very long PDF, 130 pages. Can't you summarize it? First of all, a couple of questions:

1) has the writer been treated by a therapist? If yes, which?
2) is there any evidence she had a child at all, apart from her say-so?
3) if yes, have the remains been uncovered and is there evidence of an unnatural death?


Yes. There is a group of therapists who believe in "recovered memories". These therapists invariably find "recovered memories" with a large percentage of their patients, while other therapists have never been able to find them. Invariably, these "recovered memories" involve incest and other forms of (sexual) child abuse. The stories of these recovered memories have never been corroborated by other sources. Yes, I think the concept is bunk, and that these "memories" have been implanted by the therapists.

A subset of the "recovered memories" therapists have added a dose of "satanic abuse" on top of the stories. These stories found particularly resonance with strands within American Evangelicals. It's never become popular, thankfully, outside of the USA.

There has been one notable case in the Netherlands: Yolanda, a 23-old girl from the small town of Epe, accused not only her parents of incest and satanic rituals, but about anyone who was someone in her town - the mayor, the police commissioner, the notary, etc. She also claimed on primetime TV that she had had half a dozen children before she was 18, who were grabbed out of her hands directly after birth and sacrificed in a satanic ritual before her eyes; and half a dozen or so more abortions. You do the math. Unfortunately, some people have actually been convicted on her stories - her borderline retarded father was imprisoned for some years, and two guys actually still are locked up in psych ward.

In Belgium, in the course of the investigations in the Dutroux case, and the nation-wide panic about paedophiles, a "witness X1", Regina Louf, came forward and claimed in secretive investigations that there was a wide network of child abusers who employed satanic rituals, and which consisted of many powerful in Belgian politics, finance and industry. She led the team which investigated this on a wild goose chase through the whole of Belgium, but none of the allegations could be corroborated.

So yes, recovered memories and ritual satanic abuse often involve victims, but not the accuser, but the accused who wind up in the police investigations and sometimes even in prison.

Looking at the people out there who support the whole recovered memory movement, they cover all sorts of people - lawyers, evangelicals, feminists. It's a hot-button issue, because there are a number of matters of faith involved, from the evangelicals who think that their radio station failed because of satanist conspiracy, to the women's movement spokesperson who insists that if a woman makes a claim of abuse, it's true regardless of circumstances.

It's a matter of common sense that these claims are false. However, people who stand up and say so risk being accused of being part of the conspiracy. It's exactly like The Crucible, with witches being replaced by... er, witches.

 

[Checkmite]

I may be wrong, but I think that most of the examples of satanist murder groups don't involve people becoming lured into their local satanist chapter, and brought through a succession of rituals, which lead to them becoming corrupt and evil, and finally taking part in horrendous deeds. What seems to happen is that one or more psychopaths get together, and because they like to hurt people, they decide to call themselves satanists. Sometimes they read a bit of Crowley, but mostly it's a whim.

I agree with this.

Satanists in my experience (such as it is) are mostly about props. They've got to wear the jewelry, use ink pens to scrawl the symbols on their skin, etc. They'll carry around the LaVey book, whether they read it or not, because they need to be seen carrying "the satanic bible". The older ones get tattoos. They make up their own "rituals". For the most part it's harmless nonsense. But it's definitely a social thing; that's why the majority of "satanic" and other cult-related murders usually involve more than one perpetrator. The whole point of the killing, and whatever else happens, is so your friends can see how into it and "real" you are.

 

[franklinveaux]

I am vry skeptical of the notion of "satanic" killings. Like snuff films, they seem to be largely an urban myth, with little substantive evidence that they actually exist.

I see a lot of similarities between satanic killings and snuff films. They sound plausible to a certain sort of person who wants to frame the world in terms of an epic struggle between the organized forces of good and the organized forces of evil. They provide a convenient bogeyman: a dim, shadowy, ill-defined set of evildoers determined to kill for reasons that have little to do with the ordinary reasons we kill one another (money, political gain, that sort of thing) and more to do with that epic struggle between goodness and badness. They validate certain kinds of religious beliefs. They validate certain kinds of sexual mores (the evils of pornography, the notion that anyone with a 'deviant' lifestyle is a threat).

Do they actually exist? Not as near as I can tell.

Looking at the people out there who support the whole recovered memory movement, they cover all sorts of people - lawyers, evangelicals, feminists. It's a hot-button issue, because there are a number of matters of faith involved, from the evangelicals who think that their radio station failed because of satanist conspiracy, to the women's movement spokesperson who insists that if a woman makes a claim of abuse, it's true regardless of circumstances.

I am not aware of any feminists in any organized sense who support the notion of 'recovered memories.' Nor have I seen feminists advocate the idea that "if a woman makes a claim of abuse, it's true regardless of circumstances." What I have seen is something a bit more nuanced; if a woman makes a claim of abuse, it should be treated as true and investigated in the absence of any evidence to the contrary. Do you happen to have any citations available for your claims? The closest I can find is a Duke University paper published by a feminist who also holds a doctorate in psychology, which asserts that so-called "recovered memories" of sexual abuse are seriously problematic and should not be relied upon to convey accurate information about sexual or domestic abuse, though in some circumstances such memories might be sufficient to investigate whether or not such abuse has taken place.

 

[Checkmite]

I am vry skeptical of the notion of "satanic" killings. Like snuff films, they seem to be largely an urban myth, with little substantive evidence that they actually exist.

I see a lot of similarities between satanic killings and snuff films. They sound plausible to a certain sort of person who wants to frame the world in terms of an epic struggle between the organized forces of good and the organized forces of evil. They provide a convenient bogeyman: a dim, shadowy, ill-defined set of evildoers determined to kill for reasons that have little to do with the ordinary reasons we kill one another (money, political gain, that sort of thing) and more to do with that epic struggle between goodness and badness. They validate certain kinds of religious beliefs. They validate certain kinds of sexual mores (the evils of pornography, the notion that anyone with a 'deviant' lifestyle is a threat).

Do they actually exist? Not as near as I can tell.

Did you miss the case I referenced?

 

[MG1962]

It's a matter of common sense that these claims are false. However, people who stand up and say so risk being accused of being part of the conspiracy. It's exactly like The Crucible, with witches being replaced by... er, witches.

I have direct experience of someone suffering from recovered memories of satanic rituals. There is some very strong evidence the person could not have suffered the abuses as described. But the emotional damage the therapy caused lives with this person 20 years after the fact.

 

[franklinveaux]

I read the link you referenced, which is a bit thin on details. It starts off describing a "Satanic sect," but then goes on to describe the people involved as "goths." It's not clear to me if the people involved self-identified as Satanists, or if that was an inference the prosecution made from them self-identifying as goth, at least not from the link you posted.

 

[westprog]

I am not aware of any feminists in any organized sense who support the notion of 'recovered memories.' Nor have I seen feminists advocate the idea that "if a woman makes a claim of abuse, it's true regardless of circumstances." What I have seen is something a bit more nuanced; if a woman makes a claim of abuse, it should be treated as true and investigated in the absence of any evidence to the contrary. Do you happen to have any citations available for your claims? The closest I can find is a Duke University paper published by a feminist who also holds a doctorate in psychology, which asserts that so-called "recovered memories" of sexual abuse are seriously problematic and should not be relied upon to convey accurate information about sexual or domestic abuse, though in some circumstances such memories might be sufficient to investigate whether or not such abuse has taken place.

I didn't mean to imply a complete feminist consensus on this issue. There's a lot of discussion, argument, and certainly the idea of repressed memory is not as acceptable as it once was. However, The Courage To Heal was not written by evangelicals. The authors considered themselves feminists, and as far as I'm aware, they still do.

Here's an example of a debate on the subject - based around TCTH, which remains a key text in the whole area of repressed memories.
Debate touching on The Courage To Heal from a feminist perspective.

I've also noticed with some very brief google research that TCTH is cited by numerous feminist sites. It's also critiqued by a number of feminists.

 

[wakawakawaka]

Seems to be? Didn't you read it yourself? But you want us to read it, or what?

Oh, I did read the title page and the dedication, stopped at the foreword (eh, "forward" ). The many references to Christ sent up a red flag with me, due to the connection between SRA and certain Evangelicals.

wait whats SRA

 

[7th sextile]

wait whats SRA

SRA = Satanic Ritual Abuse

 

[wakawakawaka]

SRA = Satanic Ritual Abuse wow its kinda dumb i ddidnt notice until now...

 

[angrysoba]

I always find it a bit suspicious when the front page blares, "This shocking, True Story ..."

A bit lady doth protest too much.

 

[ddt]

Looking at the people out there who support the whole recovered memory movement, they cover all sorts of people - lawyers, evangelicals, feminists. It's a hot-button issue, because there are a number of matters of faith involved, from the evangelicals who think that their radio station failed because of satanist conspiracy, to the women's movement spokesperson who insists that if a woman makes a claim of abuse, it's true regardless of circumstances.

It's a matter of common sense that these claims are false. However, people who stand up and say so risk being accused of being part of the conspiracy. It's exactly like The Crucible, with witches being replaced by... er, witches.

I largely agree with that: recovered memory proponents are found in all stripes of people (well, except skeptics ). But not all recovered memories have an SRA angle. And that angle is typical of Evangelicals.

 

[Kaosium]

The case is not of international interest, so you might not find anything in English on this:
http://fi.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ulvilan_surma

The story starts in 2006 when a woman named Anneli Auer calls 911 from her home, and in the background are heard sounds of her husband being murdered. The case has been in national headlines ever since, and the court process is still continuing (= appealed to highest court).

The defense says that an unknown third party entered the house and murdered the man while Anneli was making the call to 911, as is heard in the (recorded, as they are) 911 phone call.

Prosecutors have made a zillion different theories what really happened. The latest version from prosecutors is that the man was murdered by Anneli and her (extramarital) boyfriend before the 911 call was made, and they had recorded sounds of the murder on a tape recorder, to use them as an alibi for Anneli as the recorded sounds of deadly fighting and groaning are heard in the background during the 911 call.

The soap opera is completed with the leader of the police investigations publicly believing in the innocence of Anneli, but the latest turn is that he was made resign from this position. Other police officers (who don´t believe in her innocence) believe that they have evidence of Anneli and her boyfriend being guilty of a series of violent crimes, rapes and child abuse, and that they have engaged in Satanistic rituals, and that the wounds in the body seem to be ritualistic.

It looks like Anneli and her boyfriend will certainly be convicted guilty for something that gives them jail time, but will that include also the murder of her husband, the lowest court said yes, the next higher court said no, and the highest court has yet to have their say.

I wonder what kind of evidence they have for this crime spree, or for that matter the 911 call being taped and her being involved in the murder. I just ask because I'm not sure one could invent a better script for a gross miscarriage of justice.

 

[westprog]

I largely agree with that: recovered memory proponents are found in all stripes of people (well, except skeptics ). But not all recovered memories have an SRA angle. And that angle is typical of Evangelicals.

The kind of recovered memory depends on the "therapist" (if that's an apt description for someone who basically drives somebody insane). If the therapist looks for familial abuse, that's what crops up. Satanic abuse will be found by a satanic abuse specialist. If the guy looks for alien abduction, that's what will be found.

However, satanic abuse is a common theme in the CTH movement. Satanic abuse accounts feature in the book. Accounts from people with a strong Christian element were deprecated by the authors. The abuse element was real, it was the Virgin Mary who was imaginary. However, seeing the Virgin Mary in no way should cast doubt on the rest of the account.