Electric Vehicles

[Dr. Keith]

Seeing as how my office is virtual and doesn't have a physical location they own and all my work is done at client sites, I'd say fairly goddamn low.

That seems pithy when removed from context of my entire response to your post implying that you had an office. Still, the logic applies to client sites and other locations. When they figure out how make money by catering to EV users there will be more chargers.

Yeah I could do that. Or I could go to one of the gas stations that is damn near literally on every corner and fill up in 2 minutes with enough to last me the entire week and not worry about it again

Every week. Of every month. Of every year. Versus a one off that may happen once every couple of years assuming you have a fairly regular schedule and driving habits. Sound good. I just hate gas stations and everything about them. [Insert Mr. Smith monologue to Morpheus but substitute gas stations for humanity.]

 

[bruto]

I don't see a problem with piecemeal charging. As long as you get the charge and get home, what's the beef?

Back in the day when gas was cheap and my wallet thin, I habitually bought little bits of gas at a time because I only had a couple of bucks and was always in a hurry. Later, I've often bought little bits of gas because every good swamp yankee knows it's a sin to abandon a car with a full tank.

If you can keep your electric car charged enough to keep going, it makes sense to do it in the shortest, most convenient way possible. Unless there's some hidden cost to making the connection, you might as well plug it in whenever there's a chance. A watt is a watt.

Still not likely to be happening right here, as the combination of limited charging, vehicle cost, and the probable need to upgrade my electrical circuit, combined with the long cold dark winters here, makes the prospect less attractive than a little gas econobox with snow tires. But things change, and I wouldn't write the possibility off.

 

[JoeMorgue]

That seems pithy when removed from context of my entire response to your post implying that you had an office. Still, the logic applies to client sites and other locations. When they figure out how make money by catering to EV users there will be more chargers.

Yeah. That's why I'll buy a fully electric car then, not now.

Every week. Of every month. Of every year. Versus a one off that may happen once every couple of years assuming you have a fairly regular schedule and driving habits. Sound good.

Ah yeah. Compared to "Well I just hummingbird from charging point to charging point" it sounds great.

 

[Dr. Keith]

And again I'm not downing electric vehicles. My next car almost certainly will be one (probably a plug in hybrid or range extended electric car, I don't think I can viably go 100% electric just yet)

I just realize they are only viable for people in dense urban areas and "LOL just refuel at your friendly neighborhood local RV park" is insane.

I live in a suburban area and will be moving to a small town soon and in both places they would be perfectly viable. "Dense Urban Area" is a red herring. Besides, most people live in suburban areas or more dense.

That EV users have found RV parks as viable alternatives to charging stations in a pinch is not insane, it is a perfectly reasonable counter to "Oh my god! I can't find electrons anywhere outside of downtown metropolis!"

 

[JoeMorgue]

I don't see a problem with piecemeal charging. As long as you get the charge and get home, what's the beef?

It's great if you are always in complete control of your schedule and never have to be anywhere right now.

I can't wait on a trouble call while my car takes 30 minutes to add enough miles to get to their site.

 

[Dr. Keith]

Yeah. That's why I'll buy a fully electric car then, not now.

Cool, cool, cool.

Ah yeah. Compared to "Well I just hummingbird from charging point to charging point" it sounds great.

Ah yeah, humming-birding on the rare occasion that charging at home isn't enough is preferable to me. Not to you. Understood.

 

[MRC_Hans]

No every valid point is just naysaying.

It's the same problem with the bike cultist, they refuse to believe that anyone's vehicular needs are ever different from theirs and they always have some insane way to get around inherent downsides, even temporary ones, with their favorite mode of transport.

Good example, really. Over the last decade, electrically powered bikes have given a speed and range to ordinary moderately fit people, that used to be only for athletes. If you told a lot of those people they could be biking to work back 10-15 years ago, they would say it was too long, too time-consuming, they would show up sweaty, etc.

Hans

 

[Jack by the hedge]

I have the comparative luxury of a free car park at work. In recent years there's been political pressure around the idea of pushing commuters out of their cars and onto public transport by making employers pay tax on car park provision and perhaps charge their employees a parking fee.

The idea that I and colleagues might persuade my employer to pay to install and maintain charging points so we can charge our cars with their electricity seems far-fetched.

 

[bruto]

It's great if you are always in complete control of your schedule and never have to be anywhere right now.

I can't wait on a trouble call while my car takes 30 minutes to add enough miles to get to their site.

Of course, if you're too short of either charge or time, either you're in the wrong car or you're not managing it right.

My point, however, was addressing the question of whether it's worthwhile or reasonable in general to use many little charges or one big one. As long as you maintain enough charge to go where you need to go in the time you have to do it in, I would suggest there's nothing inherently wrong with getting what you can where you can, rather than worrying, as so many people do about so many things, about getting all or nothing. The more you can split time with things you're doing anyway, like shopping, the less time you must spend on charging alone.

Right now, it's likely not so practical in many places. Eventually, I suspect, it will be. If you can plug in wherever you park, it doesn't matter then if you park for hours or minutes. A watt is a watt.

 

[Dr. Keith]

I have the comparative luxury of a free car park at work. In recent years there's been political pressure around the idea of pushing commuters out of their cars and onto public transport by making employers pay tax on car park provision and perhaps charge their employees a parking fee.

The idea that I and colleagues might persuade my employer to pay to install and maintain charging points so we can charge our cars with their electricity seems far-fetched.

Would your employer be interested if that pressure you mentioned in your first paragraph went away by simply allowing a third party to install some pay per use charging stations in their already existing parking structure?

 

[JoeMorgue]

Of course, if you're too short of either charge or time, either you're in the wrong car or you're not managing it right.

*********. Right now outside of Tesla and the Chevy Bolt fully electric cars have a range of less than 200 miles.

Let's say I buy a Nissan Leaf, which looks to be the cheapest fully electric car you can get right now. It has an ideal range of 150 miles.

I can kill 150 miles before lunch driving from site to site performing trouble calls. It's not super common but it's not a rare occurrence I can just not account for. And then I have to find a place to charge it. And it's not like just filling a tank, it takes time.

The whole "Oh I'm sorry boss I can't work because I'm waiting on my car to charge" is not some insane rare scenario I'm making up.

 

[lobosrul5]

A Nissan Leaf. It was 8 years old when I bought it 2 years ago, and cost $6500 (so actually a lot less than half $17k). It had just under 38,000 miles on it when I bought it, which was actually quite high for a Leaf of that age.



My Leaf only gets 60 miles on a full charge, but the longest round trip I do is only 30 miles (which I might do once a month), so it's plenty.

Normally I only put in enough to do round-town driving because keeping it under half charge lessens battery degradation. If I think I might need to take a long trip I put it on charge overnight, and next morning it's ready to go. If I need to visit someone I insist that they allow me to 'top up' while I am there, and if I don't have enough charge to get there they have to wait.

I don't do a lot of miles, but I do drive almost every day. Compared to my old car the Leaf is a joy to drive, and something I look forward to. So it would be worth it for me even if I didn't save money, which I do because electricity is half the cost of gas here.

Another thing to consider is that maintenance costs are much lower. No oil changes, no timing belts to replace, brake pads last forever, tires wear less. The motor never needs to be tuned up or cleaned and there is no exhaust system to rust through, no catalytic converter to gum up etc. The smooth running electric drive system doesn't shake the car to bits or cover it with grime, so my 8 year old car was like brand new and should stay that way if I look after it.

I planned to do that too, then I needed to get a few parts replaced and the bill was $1000 so I decided not to wait for a 'major issue'. Just as well I did too, because it turned out the transmission was almost shot.

I'd be a little bit worried about battery replacement, Nissan charges more for a new battery than you paid for your car. Still if you only drive 3k miles a year you may indeed outlive the car.

For me, I need a hatchback or SUV. Need room for two medium sized dogs. And I need at least 200 miles roundtrip range. Every now and again I get out in the boonies of New Mexico. Right now it looks like the only EV's that suit me are made by Tesla (way too much $), or one model by Hyundai (Kona EV) which starts at $38,000. BTW I currently have a Hyundai Santa Fe. Great vehicle and a brand I'd stick with for an EV in a heartbeat if it was more affordable, or perhaps a used one.

Anyways, it looks to me like there are now affordable EV's that suit some driver's needs, and expensive ones that would suit the vast majority of drivers. Thats a long ways from where things were even a decade ago.

ETA: oh I guess Nissan Leafs are offered as hatchbacks.

 

[Ranb]

Washington State is considering switching to nearly all EV cars/trucks <10,000 pounds gross weight by 2030. Vehicles of model year 2030 and later will have to be EV's

Public and private vehicles used by police, fire departments and some others are exempt of course. http://lawfilesext.leg.wa.gov/biennium/2021-22/Pdf/Bills/House Bills/1204.pdf?q=20210210114626

I don't think it will pass when it exempts emergency services vehicles which would probably include public and privately owned cars belonging to the police, firefighters and some others.

Ranb

 

[ponderingturtle]

Pretty much. Mechanical brakes are only used when braking hard, coming to a complete stop or when the battery is fully charged and can't take any more (another reason to not not charge fully, especially if you start off going downhill!).

According to Elon Musk, the brake pads on a Tesla literally never need to be replaced for the lifetime of the car. In reality some Tesla owners have reported over 200,000 miles on original brake pads. That's effectively forever for someone like me who does less than 3000 miles per year.

I have 130,000 miles on the original brake pads of by Prius C. Thought it is mostly highway driving.

 

[Ranb]

A Nissan Leaf. It was 8 years old when I bought it 2 years ago, and cost $6500 (so actually a lot less than half $17k). It had just under 38,000 miles on it when I bought it, which was actually quite high for a Leaf of that age.

I heard that due to the lack of a battery coolant system, Nissan recommends not using a DC supercharger. Is this true?

 

[MRC_Hans]

I have the comparative luxury of a free car park at work. In recent years there's been political pressure around the idea of pushing commuters out of their cars and onto public transport by making employers pay tax on car park provision and perhaps charge their employees a parking fee.

The idea that I and colleagues might persuade my employer to pay to install and maintain charging points so we can charge our cars with their electricity seems far-fetched.

Sure. But the idea that some company running charging stations for profit might do it is not.

Hans

 

[Steve]

Just wondering because I honestly do not know - If, over say the next ten years, a significant number of drivers (say 50%) switched to EV's would there be any significant effect on the power grid? Would additional power need to be generated, or is there enough power available to to handle the load with little difficulty?

Related question - would the generation of power needed to charge all those EV's be "clean" generation, or would coal/gas/cogen plant capacity need to be increased? If the capacity could be provided by solar/wind and maybe hydro that would be great.

 

[crescent]

I heard that due to the lack of a battery coolant system, Nissan recommends not using a DC supercharger. Is this true?

The Leaf's in general have much worse thermal management than other EVs and plug-in hybrids. That makes their batteries wear out much, much faster than Telsa or GM or other common EV brands.

Leafs are affordable and reliable, but they're just not as durable as the others.

 

[crescent]

Just wondering because I honestly do not know - If, over say the next ten years, a significant number of drivers (say 50%) switched to EV's would there be any significant effect on the power grid? Would additional power need to be generated, or is there enough power available to to handle the load with little difficulty?

Related question - would the generation of power needed to charge all those EV's be "clean" generation, or would coal/gas/cogen plant capacity need to be increased? If the capacity could be provided by solar/wind and maybe hydro that would be great.

It seems to be mixed.

Right now, demand on the power grid is highest during the daytime and lower at night. Most current EV owners charge at night, so they are using the system at a time when other demands are low. That places little to no additional stress on the system.

But.....

Many renewable power sources such as wind and (especially) solar generate more power during the day. There is a lot of wind power in Wyoming, for example, and it is typically windier during the day than at night there.

So.....

If we want to switch our power generation/collection over to wind and solar and dramatically increase the proportion of cars that are electric, then over the longer run we would want to switch to charging EVs during the day (because that's when wind/solar power is mostly generated). Get employers to install charging stations where their employees park. Charging stations in big parking lots at malls and airports and the like. A nice aspect of this is these places also make ideal places to install solar cells as shade structures. The car charges the battery off the solar system that is also protecting the car from sun and hail (I live in Colorado, which gets enormously destructive hail storms, the solar cells here weather them better than roof shingles and skylights do.)

Rooftop solar may turn out to be a big thing over the next few decades, I expect to see architects starting to include that in the basic design of all sorts of buildings, such as housing developments designed with more roof space facing south than north, arranging all the pipes and chimneys on houses so that they don't get in the way of solar cell installation, that sort of thing.

 

[jadebox]

I'd be a little bit worried about battery replacement, ...

My i3 has a 100,000 mile / 8 year warranty on the battery. If it gets below 70% of the advertised capacity, they will repair or replace it. But, my six-year old i3 with about 40K miles still has as much capacity as originally advertised.

The Leaf's battery management isn't as good, but it still likely that the battery will outlive the rest of the car and be recycled to backup a home's solar panels or whatever.