Electric Vehicles

[Steve]

I agree, but there's a very large infrastructure cost there in urban areas. Around me, vanishingly few people have garages (as it should be for an urban area) and there are very few parking lots (as it should be for an urban area),so just about everyone parks on the street. Streets would have to get lined with charging stations. For a big city, that's not a simple task and introduces a chicken and egg problem. There's no political will to start lining the streets with charging stations because not enough people own electric cars, and people are slow to buy electric cars because there's no charging options.

I'd seriously consider buying an electric vehicle (or a plug-in hybrid with a relatively short electric range) except I don't have a place I can charge it over night. That, and the ones that would fit my needs best are too expensive. If I move in the next couple years, my next new car may be an electric one. Right now it looks like a Tesla is the most likely option, largely because their charging network is convenient for my needs for my decently common long trips

Large urban areas are ideal for electric cars. The city of Vancouver, I know, is very proactive with charging locations. Public ones are common and bylaws require developers to include them in all new building parking lots.

Around here (6000 km from Vancouver ) I have never seen a public charging station, and never actually even noticed an electric car on the road.

 

[bonzombiekitty]

Large urban areas are ideal for electric cars. The city of Vancouver, I know, is very proactive with charging locations. Public ones are common and bylaws require developers to include them in all new building parking lots.

I agree that a large city is a good spot to use electric cars b/c your driving distances are short. But there's very little political will to actually make it feasible. My city, for example, recently revoked the law allowing people to have a carve out an electric vehicle charging spot on their block. When parking lots around here are (rightfully) disappearing, mandating charging stations in new parking lots doesn't do much.

In order for it to be a real attractive option for the majority of the city, particularly a city like mine which is filled with single family row homes and no off street parking, the streets would have to be lined with chargers.

 

[Steve]

I agree that a large city is a good spot to use electric cars b/c your driving distances are short. But there's very little political will to actually make it feasible. My city, for example, recently revoked the law allowing people to have a carve out an electric vehicle charging spot on their block. When parking lots around here are (rightfully) disappearing, mandating charging stations in new parking lots doesn't do much.

In order for it to be a real attractive option for the majority of the city, particularly a city like mine which is filled with single family row homes and no off street parking, the streets would have to be lined with chargers.

Political will is often the bottleneck. In Vancouver the prevailing opinion of the residents is very much in favor of environmental action so the city is responding to that. For sure other cities, and their residents opinions, are entirely different

 

[The Don]

If I need to take a really long trip I will hire a car or find some other solution.

Until 18 months ago I'd have said that there's no way an electric vehicle could meet my needs. I regularly had to drive close to 300 miles in one stretch to go visit Daddy Don in his care home.

I don't have to do that any more and apart from a couple of round trips to London (which a Tesla S or 3 would have had plenty of range for), I don't think I've driven more than 100 miles at a time since February last year.

Almost all of our journeys are relatively short local jaunts and any of the smaller EVs would be perfectly fine - as long as they could accommodate our stuff. We could charge at home and if we got our act together with solar cells, we might be able to charge for free.

Every two or three years we drive to France to go skiing and take a couple of weeks to go there and back, shopping along the way. We may have to rent a car for that journey, then again we could plan the journey differently so as to take a break every 200 miles (as opposed to every 400 miles).

 

[ponderingturtle]

Ok, I don't really know much about the details of electric vehicles. I accept that stopping for a charge would merely add several hours to my day.

No it would take a half hour stop to charge up at a high capacity charging station. There are more and more of these around. So it shouldn't add more than a half hour to the trip and combined with other stops and cutting out the stop for gas it is not a huge change.

 

[bruto]

Continuing, just for the moment, the electric vehicle derail (perhaps it will be moved to its own thread eventually), I saw a youtube video recently of a person who duplicated a 2000 mile road trip he had made in summer in his Tesla, this time in subzero winter weather. The trip was pretty fuss free, and while his efficiency was down, it was still not too bad. Of course, this was a Tesla, a very expensive car capable of very fast charging on a route where the chargers were pretty easy to find. Nonetheless, as a study on how electric vehicles might work, it seemed a good preview:



I don't think we're all ready for all electric vehicles, but we don't have to wait until there is nothing short of a complete, perfect fleet of electric vehicles, to start working in that direction.

Mind you, I think it will be a while before I, living in rural Vermont, will be able to do this. But it's not impossible.

 

[lobosrul5]

So due to the unprecedented Covid situation, you had to drive 400km to a far way airport, then turn straight around and drive back home again? A 500 mile round trip with only 5 minutes break in the middle, and so unpleasant that you couldn't stand staying any longer? That's your example of how an electric vehicle would 'add several hours to my day'?

A few years ago I drove a friend's car just over 400km non-stop, but there's no way I could have turned around and driven back again without a loong break (and breaks during the trip), especially now that I am older. That would be madness.

My budget was less than half that and it didn't stop me from buying an electric car. If I need to take a really long trip I will hire a car or find some other solution.

That's OK - you stick to your gas car because you are too old and set in your ways to change. But don't think your situation has any relevance to the rest of the world - because it doesn't.

Sorry if I missed it upthread... but what EV vehicle did you get for half his 17k budget??

My vehicle is 8 years old, and I have 38,000 miles on it. Given how little I drive I cannot see an EV making financial sense at the moment. I plan to drive my current car until it has major drive train issues that don't make sense to repair. Then I may or may not buy an EV.

 

[Steve]

No it would take a half hour stop to charge up at a high capacity charging station. There are more and more of these around. So it shouldn't add more than a half hour to the trip and combined with other stops and cutting out the stop for gas it is not a huge change.

Interesting. This derail has caused me to look into the whole charging issue a little further. Purely academic because limited finances mean there is no new vehicle in my future, near or far. As we were discussing my trip to the Halifax airport I looked up high capacity chargers in that area to see how a driver of an electric vehicle would fare doing that trip today. Seems there are 3 high capacity chargers in the city of Halifax and zero at the airport approx 40 km outside the city. Halifax also has 54 "standard" chargers and the airport has 3. So driving 40 km to the city expecting a high capacity charger to be free exactly when I need it would likely be an exercise in futility. Likewise expecting one of the 3 chargers at the airport to be available. Your suggested additional half hour is out of the question. Undoubtedly that will change as electric vehicles and chargers become more and more common, affordable and practical. That trip in an electric vehicle today would be a problem.

In spite of all my apparent protest I am really very much in favor of electric vehicles. The time will come when (almost) all vehicles on the road are electric and that is a very positive thing. But outside of major urban areas with sufficient infrastructure there is still a long way to go. Given my age and location I do not see ever owning an electric vehicle myself. It may well be that our current vehicle will be our last.

Also - on the trip I described I made no other stops in either direction. A 4 hour drive does not really require stops. So, 5 minutes for gas, plus the unavoidable waiting time at the airport.

ETA - just remembered I said I was out of the EV derail. This time I mean it.

 

[acbytesla]

Interesting. This derail has caused me to look into the whole charging issue a little further. Purely academic because limited finances mean there is no new vehicle in my future, near or far. As we were discussing my trip to the Halifax airport I looked up high capacity chargers in that area to see how a driver of an electric vehicle would fare doing that trip today. Seems there are 3 high capacity chargers in the city of Halifax and zero at the airport approx 40 km outside the city. Halifax also has 54 "standard" chargers and the airport has 3. So driving 40 km to the city expecting a high capacity charger to be free exactly when I need it would likely be an exercise in futility. Likewise expecting one of the 3 chargers at the airport to be available. Your suggested additional half hour is out of the question. Undoubtedly that will change as electric vehicles and chargers become more and more common, affordable and practical. That trip in an electric vehicle today would be a problem.

In spite of all my apparent protest I am really very much in favor of electric vehicles. The time will come when (almost) all vehicles on the road are electric and that is a very positive thing. But outside of major urban areas with sufficient infrastructure there is still a long way to go. Given my age and location I do not see ever owning an electric vehicle myself. It may well be that our current vehicle will be our last.

Also - on the trip I described I made no other stops in either direction. A 4 hour drive does not really require stops. So, 5 minutes for gas, plus the unavoidable waiting time at the airport.

ETA - just remembered I said I was out of the EV derail. This time I mean it.

This is a total derail, but I feel compelled to address it. You seem determined to figure out exactly how an EV won't work for you. And maybe it won't. But maybe for a few minutes lets think about how it would.

If you own an EV, you are going to want to charge at home as often as you can. It's cheaper to charge at home. And a lot cheaper than gas. A standard Tesla model 3 has a range of 500 KM. The Model S is over 650KM. Anyway, the average price of electricity in the US is 13 cents per KWH. The Model 3 has a 75KWH battery pack. Using a few assumptions that equals $11.50 to fill up from empty. Cost you $3.60 to drive 100 miles. (Not bad eh?) It's twice as much to use the Superchargers.

Not sure how often you drive to Halifax, but I bet it really isn't that often. But let's look at that trip. Let's say you left home with a fully charged car. Your route would take you past the Enfield Tesla Supercharger just off Highway 102, 7.8 KM North of the Halifax Airport .
You could easily recharge in 30 minutes drive and be off to pick up your passenger and then drive back to Sydney without another stop.

But I get that the vehicle isn't cheap and not necessarily a good fit for you. But the availability of charging stations isn't really that much of an issue for most EV users at the moment. Most of the Tesla charging stations I see these days always seem to have chargers available. But I do understand that there are full charging stations in California and other densely populated areas where it's not so easy.

This is as another poster mentioned, a chicken and egg problem the availability of charging stations will increase as people buy more EVs.

 

[Dr. Keith]

Another note is that, unlike a gasoline car, you don't stop to fill up an electric car. Instead you just top it up a bit. A ten minute stop when you have 50% range left will squeeze in more range than a ten minute stop when you have 980% range left. The sweet spot seems to be between 20% and 80% for fast filling. Once you get over 80% it slows down considerably. So, two ten minutes stops may get you more range than one stop that fills it to 100%.

I just drove 400 kilometers on Sunday and that is a nice long trip. I don't stop on that trip, every time I do it, but I often take a ten minute break just to stretch my legs. If I had an electric car I would probably stop every time. Not a huge change in my routine, but a minor one. And only on the few days I drive that far. I'd take that as compared to hitting the gas station once a week.

 

[Steve]

This is a total derail, but I feel compelled to address it. You seem determined to figure out exactly how an EV won't work for you. And maybe it won't. But maybe for a few minutes lets think about how it would.

If you own an EV, you are going to want to charge at home as often as you can. It's cheaper to charge at home. And a lot cheaper than gas. A standard Tesla model 3 has a range of 500 KM. The Model S is over 650KM. Anyway, the average price of electricity in the US is 13 cents per KWH. The Model 3 has a 75KWH battery pack. Using a few assumptions that equals $11.50 to fill up from empty. Cost you $3.60 to drive 100 miles. (Not bad eh?) It's twice as much to use the Superchargers.

Not sure how often you drive to Halifax, but I bet it really isn't that often. But let's look at that trip. Let's say you left home with a fully charged car. Your route would take you past the Enfield Tesla Supercharger just off Highway 102, 7.8 KM North of the Halifax Airport .
You could easily recharge in 30 minutes drive and be off to pick up your passenger and then drive back to Sydney without another stop.

But I get that the vehicle isn't cheap and not necessarily a good fit for you. But the availability of charging stations isn't really that much of an issue for most EV users at the moment. Most of the Tesla charging stations I see these days always seem to have chargers available. But I do understand that there are full charging stations in California and other densely populated areas where it's not so easy.

This is as another poster mentioned, a chicken and egg problem the availability of charging stations will increase as people buy more EVs.

Exactly how an electric vehicle will work for me in the real world is totally irrelevant. I will never own one because I cannot afford one. Nor can I afford to buy a new gasoline powered vehicle. There is little to no possibility of my finances changing to the point that a new vehicle is a possibility. If I ever come into that sort of money I have much higher priorities for it. It is much easier for me to afford a few tanks of gas when needed that to cough up the cost of a car or to take on car loan payments (even if I could get one on my income). It is my sincere hope that the vehicle I am currently driving will last for the rest of my driving days.

Now that that is clear, here is my point. I have found through this discussion that some, perhaps many, of my ideas re electric vehicles are outdated. Electric vehicles are obviously very practical for some and I have no doubt that they will become practical for many more people in the near future as infrastructure to support them is improved. I will even concede that an electric vehicle may in fact work for the specific trip that I have described, at minimal convenience provided the described charging station is available and unoccupied when needed. The time will come, maybe in what remains of my lifetime, when that route has as many charging stations as it currently has gas pumps, and that will be fantastic. I am fully in favor of electric vehicles. I fully expect my daughter will acquire one when the gas guzzler we gave her dies.

I am learning. Your criticism of my ignorance is misdirected and unwarranted.

 

[acbytesla]

Exactly how an electric vehicle will work for me in the real world is totally irrelevant. I will never own one because I cannot afford one. Nor can I afford to buy a new gasoline powered vehicle. There is little to no possibility of my finances changing to the point that a new vehicle is a possibility. If I ever come into that sort of money I have much higher priorities for it. It is much easier for me to afford a few tanks of gas when needed that to cough up the cost of a car or to take on car loan payments (even if I could get one on my income). It is my sincere hope that the vehicle I am currently driving will last for the rest of my driving days.

Now that that is clear, here is my point. I have found through this discussion that some, perhaps many, of my ideas re electric vehicles are outdated. Electric vehicles are obviously very practical for some and I have no doubt that they will become practical for many more people in the near future as infrastructure to support them is improved. I will even concede that an electric vehicle may in fact work for the specific trip that I have described, at minimal convenience provided the described charging station is available and unoccupied when needed. The time will come, maybe in what remains of my lifetime, when that route has as many charging stations as it currently has gas pumps, and that will be fantastic. I am fully in favor of electric vehicles. I fully expect my daughter will acquire one when the gas guzzler we gave her dies.

I am learning. Your criticism of my ignorance is misdirected and unwarranted.

I am not criticising your ignorance. And if you look at this thread, you will see that my posts have been respectful.

Also, I can't afford one either....at the moment. I drive a used van that I bought for $600.

I just wanted to point out that people have misconceptions about EVs. The range anxiety issue is a common concern. But for 75 percent of the drivers in the US, their concern for how they use the vehicle, it's an overrated concern.

 

[JoeMorgue]

Electric vehicles are a lot like public transportation, they are a lot better; their upsides more up and their downsides more down, in population-dense urban areas and nobody can figure out why people who live out in the bumbfarts don't want to pay for infrastructures they will never use (or will get nowhere near the return on investment from.)

 

[Steve]

I am not criticising your ignorance. And if you look at this thread, you will see that my posts have been respectful.

Also, I can't afford one either....at the moment. I drive a used van that I bought for $600.

I just wanted to point out that people have misconceptions about EVs. The range anxiety issue is a common concern. But for 75 percent of the drivers in the US, their concern for how they use the vehicle, it's an overrated concern.

Perhaps I over reacted to this:

"You seem determined to figure out exactly how an EV won't work for you."

If so. I apologize.

You have provided some useful info which I appreciate. At least some of my misconceptions re EV's have been corrected so the discussion has been useful. I am now better informed. All good.

 

[Winterfrost]

For what it's worth, here's my real world long-distance travel experience in a long-range Tesla.

We don't do a lot of road trips, but after I got the car I wanted to take one to see how it worked over an extended distance (and because it's just fun to drive). It worked out so well that we're now planning on taking one every year.

In 2019 we traveled ~6,000 km from Alberta to BC, down the Pacific coast to California, then back up through Nevada, Utah, Wyoming, Montana. In 2020 we did a ~2,700 km loop through Alberta and BC.

I planned the routes through more remote areas in advance to be sure we would have charging stations, but we really only found 3 places where we had to adjust our plans to ensure we could charge:
1) Montana. At one point we stopped for drinks and someone was so amazed at the sight of a Tesla that they asked me if they could take a picture.
2) Eastern BC between Kamloops and Jasper. We found one hotel with a charger, otherwise we wouldn't have been able to take highway 5 without a day-long charging stop.
3) Northern California. Not for a lack of chargers--they were just always busy!

We needed ~30 minutes to charge half-way through the day, but we used this stop to stretch, go to the bathroom, and grab something quick to eat, just like we would if we were in a gas car.

We drove ~6 hours a day, but there's no reason you couldn't do more. The longest legs we drove between charges were ~350km. We definitely could have charged less frequently if the driver was less of a leadfoot than I am (higher-than-posted highway speeds definitely chew into battery life). The lowest I ever saw the battery was ~30km range remaining and that was at the end of a ~350km leg through steep ups and downs in the Oregon mountains where I was having a bit too much fun in the turns.

In terms of charging fees, the 7,000km trip cost us $170 CAD (~$130 USD). A lot of hotels have chargers and charging was almost always free, so most of the charging fees were from our mid-day stops at a Supercharger. I didn't track the shorter trip.

These trips proved to me that long distance travel in electric vehicles is perfectly doable today with some caveats:
1) You're better off sticking to more inhabited areas (though it's worth noting that many people charge at campgrounds--we never did--which are almost everywhere).
2) I would not recommend just jumping in the car and going without a plan (at least not in Canada or the central US).
3) Avoid winter road trips! If the temperature gets below -15C, you need to account for a significant drop in range. We went on a short ~150km trip in -25C and the range dropped about twice as fast as normal. This will make some legs of a long roadtrip untenable.

 

[acbytesla]

For what it's worth, here's my real world long-distance travel experience in a long-range Tesla.

We don't do a lot of road trips, but after I got the car I wanted to take one to see how it worked over an extended distance (and because it's just fun to drive). It worked out so well that we're now planning on taking one every year.

In 2019 we traveled ~6,000 km from Alberta to BC, down the Pacific coast to California, then back up through Nevada, Utah, Wyoming, Montana. In 2020 we did a ~2,700 km loop through Alberta and BC.

I planned the routes through more remote areas in advance to be sure we would have charging stations, but we really only found 3 places where we had to adjust our plans to ensure we could charge:
1) Montana. At one point we stopped for drinks and someone was so amazed at the sight of a Tesla that they asked me if they could take a picture.
2) Eastern BC between Kamloops and Jasper. We found one hotel with a charger, otherwise we wouldn't have been able to take highway 5 without a day-long charging stop.
3) Northern California. Not for a lack of chargers--they were just always busy!

We needed ~30 minutes to charge half-way through the day, but we used this stop to stretch, go to the bathroom, and grab something quick to eat, just like we would if we were in a gas car.

We drove ~6 hours a day, but there's no reason you couldn't do more. The longest legs we drove between charges were ~350km. We definitely could have charged less frequently if the driver was less of a leadfoot than I am (higher-than-posted highway speeds definitely chew into battery life). The lowest I ever saw the battery was ~30km range remaining and that was at the end of a ~350km leg through steep ups and downs in the Oregon mountains where I was having a bit too much fun in the turns.

In terms of charging fees, the 7,000km trip cost us $170 CAD (~$130 USD). A lot of hotels have chargers and charging was almost always free, so most of the charging fees were from our mid-day stops at a Supercharger. I didn't track the shorter trip.

These trips proved to me that long distance travel in electric vehicles is perfectly doable today with some caveats:
1) You're better off sticking to more inhabited areas (though it's worth noting that many people charge at campgrounds--we never did--which are almost everywhere).
2) I would not recommend just jumping in the car and going without a plan (at least not in Canada or the central US).
3) Avoid winter road trips! If the temperature gets below -15C, you need to account for a significant drop in range. We went on a short ~150km trip in -25C and the range dropped about twice as fast as normal. This will make some legs of a long roadtrip untenable.

Great post. What model do you have? My buddy absolutely loves his Model S.
That thing takes off like a rocket.

 

[Roger Ramjets]

Sorry if I missed it upthread... but what EV vehicle did you get for half his 17k budget??

A Nissan Leaf. It was 8 years old when I bought it 2 years ago, and cost $6500 (so actually a lot less than half $17k). It had just under 38,000 miles on it when I bought it, which was actually quite high for a Leaf of that age.

My vehicle is 8 years old, and I have 38,000 miles on it. Given how little I drive...

My Leaf only gets 60 miles on a full charge, but the longest round trip I do is only 30 miles (which I might do once a month), so it's plenty.

Normally I only put in enough to do round-town driving because keeping it under half charge lessens battery degradation. If I think I might need to take a long trip I put it on charge overnight, and next morning it's ready to go. If I need to visit someone I insist that they allow me to 'top up' while I am there, and if I don't have enough charge to get there they have to wait.

I don't do a lot of miles, but I do drive almost every day. Compared to my old car the Leaf is a joy to drive, and something I look forward to. So it would be worth it for me even if I didn't save money, which I do because electricity is half the cost of gas here.

Another thing to consider is that maintenance costs are much lower. No oil changes, no timing belts to replace, brake pads last forever, tires wear less. The motor never needs to be tuned up or cleaned and there is no exhaust system to rust through, no catalytic converter to gum up etc. The smooth running electric drive system doesn't shake the car to bits or cover it with grime, so my 8 year old car was like brand new and should stay that way if I look after it.

I cannot see an EV making financial sense at the moment. I plan to drive my current car until it has major drive train issues that don't make sense to repair. Then I may or may not buy an EV.

I planned to do that too, then I needed to get a few parts replaced and the bill was $1000 so I decided not to wait for a 'major issue'. Just as well I did too, because it turned out the transmission was almost shot.

 

[acbytesla]

A Nissan Leaf. It was 8 years old when I bought it 2 years ago, and cost $6500 (so actually a lot less than half $17k). It had just under 38,000 miles on it when I bought it, which was actually quite high for a Leaf of that age.



My Leaf only gets 60 miles on a full charge, but the longest round trip I do is only 30 miles (which I might do once a month), so it's plenty.

Normally I only put in enough to do round-town driving because keeping it under half charge lessens battery degradation. If I think I might need to take a long trip I put it on charge overnight, and next morning it's ready to go. If I need to visit someone I insist that they allow me to 'top up' while I am there, and if I don't have enough charge to get there they have to wait.

I don't do a lot of miles, but I do drive almost every day. Compared to my old car the Leaf is a joy to drive, and something I look forward to. So it would be worth it for me even if I didn't save money, which I do because electricity is half the cost of gas here.

Another thing to consider is that maintenance costs are much lower. No oil changes, no timing belts to replace, brake pads last forever, tires wear less. The motor never needs to be tuned up or cleaned and there is no exhaust system to rust through, no catalytic converter to gum up etc. The smooth running electric drive system doesn't shake the car to bits or cover it with grime, so my 8 year old car was like brand new and should stay that way if I look after it.

I planned to do that too, then I needed to get a few parts replaced and the bill was $1000 so I decided not to wait for a 'major issue'. Just as well I did too, because it turned out the transmission was almost shot.

No brake pads? So total regenerative braking?

 

[Roger Ramjets]

The sweet spot seems to be between 20% and 80% for fast filling. Once you get over 80% it slows down considerably. So, two ten minutes stops may get you more range than one stop that fills it to 100%.

That's correct. It's due to how Lithium batteries are charged. At about 80% charge it reaches peak voltage, then the current has to be tapered off for the last 20%. Keeping between 80% and 20% also lessens battery wear because it puts less stress on the positive plate material, which expands and contracts as it absorbs and releases Lithium ions.

In order for it to be a real attractive option for the majority of the city, particularly a city like mine which is filled with single family row homes and no off street parking, the streets would have to be lined with chargers.

Sound like a good business opportunity there - the city could make money out of charging cars rather than just letting them use up parking spaces.

Or there's the other option - solar panels on the car. How many people drive their car to work and leave it in the hot sun all day? Imagine if you could roll out a solar panel over the roof to keep your car cool while charging it.

The Lightyear One claims to get up to 70km range per day on its solar panels alone. That's very optimistic, but even half that range would probably be more than enough for a lot of city dwellers.

 

[acbytesla]

That's correct. It's due to how Lithium batteries are charged. At about 80% charge it reaches peak voltage, then the current has to be tapered off for the last 20%. Keeping between 80% and 20% also lessens battery wear because it puts less stress on the positive plate material, which expands and contracts as it absorbs and releases Lithium ions.

Sound like a good business opportunity there - the city could make money out of charging cars rather than just letting them use up parking spaces.

Or there's the other option - solar panels on the car. How many people drive their car to work and leave it in the hot sun all day? Imagine if you could roll out a solar panel over the roof to keep your car cool while charging it.

The Lightyear One claims to get up to 70km range per day on its solar panels alone. That's very optimistic, but even half that range would probably be more than enough for a lot of city dwellers.

I don't buy it.

I have a 60 cell solar panel on my van. It's a 300 watt panel which is pretty high power. I use it to charge house batteries to run a refrigerator and blender for camping. You'd also be lucky to get the equivalent of a 150 watt panel molded on to car. But maybe.

But even that is peak power. Even if you got full power for 10 Solar hours a day during mid summer you're topping off at 3 Kwh a day. During the winter, you're looking at most 3 to 4 solar hours a day maybe getting 1 Kwh if that.

And frankly even during mid summer I'm lucky to ever top 200 watts. That's because unlike a home installation you can't really tilt your panels toward the sun. They're fixed flat. During the winter, it's close to useless. But i do live in the Northwest where winters are mild, but it's often cloudy.