Electric Vehicles

[acbytesla]

Not to pick on you since multiple people are saying things like this but can a 30 minute charge actually fully charge any reasonable long range EV?


Multiple sources I see (I'll cite Wikipedia) indicate that a short charge like that won't get you charged back to full range.



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charging_station

No. But it will get you back to 80%. The last 20% has to charge slower. You're better off charging to 80% at the Supercharger station and then charge the last 20 percent at home overnight.

 

[RecoveringYuppy]

Thanks for the answers on real world charging. Unfortunately, I think it still makes my road trips problematic since I wouldn't likely be planning my stops near any charging stations. Unfortunate, since most of my driving is very short drives and overall I don't drive much during the year. Possibly I could consider a rental for my road trips, but I prefer a car I'm familiar with for long drives. Not a pressing concern since the situation may change before I replace my car.

 

[RecoveringYuppy]

A Tesla supercharger can apparently get you about 170miles worth of charge in 30 minutes. Not a full charge, but a good chunk. Fully charging takes much longer. For whatever science reason, the last 20% of battery takes significantly longer to charge.

No. But it will get you back to 80%. The last 20% has to charge slower. You're better off charging to 80% at the Supercharger station and then charge the last 20 percent at home overnight.

I'm confused again. I don't think 170 miles is 80% of the range of a Tesla is it? That's about 40% I think. So on a road trip I get to about 400 miles on the first charge and then I have to stop for about 30 minutes every 2.5 hours for the rest of the trip. And I have to find a charging station so that 30 minutes might have to include the time and distance needed to go out of my way to a charging station.

 

[arthwollipot]

Thanks for the answers on real world charging. Unfortunately, I think it still makes my road trips problematic since I wouldn't likely be planning my stops near any charging stations. Unfortunate, since most of my driving is very short drives and overall I don't drive much during the year. Possibly I could consider a rental for my road trips, but I prefer a car I'm familiar with for long drives. Not a pressing concern since the situation may change before I replace my car.

I've driven a rental on a long drive. You get used to it pretty quick.

 

[Roger Ramjets]

Hey now, some of us plan on seeing in the twenty-second century.

Think about where transport technology was 80 years ago. In another 80 years people will look back at discussions like this and laugh at our quibbling and lack of foresight.

In the early days of gas cars people worried about where to get fuel. This was a much bigger problem than providing electricity for EVs because as well as gas stations it required massive refineries, transport, and storage facilities, and of course deep wells to get the oil out of the ground. A huge amount of investment was required, which continues today. In comparison to that, running some power cables to parking spaces and installing charging sockets is chickenfeed.

The Leaf's in general have much worse thermal management than other EVs and plug-in hybrids. That makes their batteries wear out much, much faster than Telsa or GM or other common EV brands.

To be clear, early Leafs had no thermal management in their batteries. But my Leaf is 10 years old and even though the battery is getting tired it doesn't heat up significantly while driving. Overheating can be a problem on long trips with frequent fast charges without a cooling down period. Those of who use Lithium batteries in other high power applications know about this and treat them accordingly.

In hot climates some Leaf owners experienced rapid battery degradation. Once again this was largely caused by ignorance. Lithium batteries degrade faster when hotter and when fully charged. People were combining both conditions by fully charging and leaving the car out in the hot sun all day.

It doesn't get very cold where I live, but I have driven in temperatures below freezing with no apparent effect - because I know what happens when a battery is cold so I drive gently for the first few miles to let it warm up. And of course I keep the car in an attached garage so it never gets too cold. Modern Leafs have heaters in the battery to warm it up, so this isn't an issue.

Newer battery chemistries are coming onto the market that promise higher capacity and longer life. The latest Leafs have a 40kWh battery with the same size and weight as the original 24kWh battery. In 10 years time a latest generation Leaf battery that degraded to 60% would still have more capacity than mine did when new! In another ten years time the next generation battery will be even better. I hope to still be around then...

 

[SezMe]

An electric vehicle would be perfect for my needs, but I have no means to charge it while it's parked behind my apartment, and I park it at a simple paved lot outside my workplace.

Sounds like a perfect time to engage in some political advocacy. Get other employees to sign a petition to put in a charging station. If your company doesn't own the location, petition your company and others to make a request demand for a charging station (or more, depending...). What's to lose by giving it a try?

 

[SezMe]

Quick plug for plug-in hybrids as a transitional step to all-electric.

Uh, Eddie, I think the frau drove away from the charging station to quickly.

 

[Roger Ramjets]

*********. Right now outside of Tesla and the Chevy Bolt fully electric cars have a range of less than 200 miles.

The electric cars with the best real-world range
Hyundai Kona Electric, 259 miles
Jaguar I-Pace, 253 miles
Kia e-Niro, 253 miles
Tesla Model 3, 239 miles
Nissan Leaf e+, 217 miles
Mercedes-Benz EQC, 208 miles

You might need to drive 150 miles, so a currently available fully electric car might not be for you. But have you considered a hybrid? Many manufacturers are releasing new models in both plug-in hybrid and fully electric versions.

 

[SezMe]

Adapt.

The car was not invented because someone had a vision of the suburbs. The suburbs are an evolution based around the benefits and limitations of a technology.

And you will adapt to the benefits and limitations of a new technology. Things will look different.

You forgot to say "Amen" at the end of your homily.

 

[bruto]

This is partly a generational thing, but one of the things that keeps me from getting more serious about electric cars is the complex and inaccessible technology.

Tesla, for example, controls access to supercharging, apparently remotely. So if you don't have the right credit card up to date, they can just switch it off. It's unavailable at any price for salvaged vehicles. Though they sold used vehicles with "free unlimited supercharging" they retroactively made it non-transferable if you then sell the car.

I imagine such things will be ironed out in the marketplace eventually, but there's a little bit too much of the "black box" in some of these things right now for my liking.

 

[Roger Ramjets]

I'd be a little bit worried about battery replacement, Nissan charges more for a new battery than you paid for your car.

Dozens Of Shops Are Now Replacing Nissan LEAF Batteries

A growing number of shops and suppliers are getting into the business, with used but good first-generation LEAF batteries now available for as little as $1000. People with an older LEAF can even get newer 62 kWh packs to get over 200 miles of range in the oldest LEAFs

Battery Swap Gives Nissan LEAF New Lease On Life

in his latest video, [Daniel Öster] demonstrates that you can replace the battery in a modern electric vehicle without breaking the bank. While it’s not exactly an easy job, he manages to swap the pack in his 2012 Nissan LEAF from the comfort of his own garage using common tools and with the vehicle up on jack stands. The old battery wasn’t completely shot, so he was even able to recoup some of his costs by selling it; bringing the total price of the operation to approximately €2,122 ($2,500 USD).

One good thing about the Leaf is how well it protects the battery from crashes. Why is this relevant? Because when a Leaf is 'totaled' the battery usually survives unharmed. If I ever need a 'new' battery, it will probably come from a wrecked Leaf.

My battery is well past it's 'use by' date so I don't know how long it will continue to do the job for me. But I am only 3 years way from retirement, and then I will be driving mostly shorter distances so I am hoping it will be sufficient for many years. I am also biking and walking more now for my health, so the car may get even less use.

 

[SezMe]

Thanks for the answers on real world charging. Unfortunately, I think it still makes my road trips problematic since I wouldn't likely be planning my stops near any charging stations. Unfortunate, since most of my driving is very short drives and overall I don't drive much during the year. Possibly I could consider a rental for my road trips, but I prefer a car I'm familiar with for long drives. Not a pressing concern since the situation may change before I replace my car.

I always use a rental for trips over ~300 miles. If nothing else, it gives me a chance to experience new features to see which are really important and which are just fun. My day-to-day car is a 2001 Honda which is very reliable and still low upkeep. I'm pretty sure it will last longer than I will.

 

[Roger Ramjets]

I imagine such things will be ironed out in the marketplace eventually, but there's a little bit too much of the "black box" in some of these things right now for my liking.

Yep, new technology can take a while to get used to.

I have been working with electronics since the 1970's, and building and flying electric powered model aircraft and drones since 2000, but I still find new technology a bit intimidating. The Leaf was a bit nerve-wracking until I got used to the different way it worked (having never driven an automatic car before didn't help either) and I still don't understand it completely. So much unfamiliar stuff! But that would probably be the same for me with any good new car.

Today I bought a new cellphone (my current one is 10 years old, can't be updated, and the battery is down to 50%). Amazing technology but... no manual! How am I supposed to figure this thing out? And I realize I'm not as tech-savvy as I should be.

 

[KDLarsen]

I realise much of the talk here is about cars, but for a different perspective, the bus depot I'm attached to has just recieved the last of 55 new electric busses from Yutong. On paper their range is 320 km / 200 miles, though my understanding is that their routes will be arranged in order to ensure the length is considerably less than that, in order to account for driving style and to ensure enough range remains to reach the depot in case of emergencies.

(photo spoilered due to size)

[imgw=800]https://i.imgur.com/kTl4fic.jpg[/imgw]

 

[Steve]

Thanks for the answers on real world charging. Unfortunately, I think it still makes my road trips problematic since I wouldn't likely be planning my stops near any charging stations. Unfortunate, since most of my driving is very short drives and overall I don't drive much during the year. Possibly I could consider a rental for my road trips, but I prefer a car I'm familiar with for long drives. Not a pressing concern since the situation may change before I replace my car.

Agreed. I have learned a lot from this discussion and I now know that the charging issue is not nearly as bad as I thought. It is, however, still considerably more time consuming that simply filling up at a gas station. On a longer trip stops would have to be planned ahead.

Again. I am not using this as a way to criticize EV's. The infrastructure will continue to improve, battery range will continue to improve, and the price of electric cars will hopefully continue to drop to a range where they are affordable for many more people. If I were younger and wealthier I would definitely see an EV in my future. As it is my current gas guzzler could well last me the rest of my driving life and $50 a month for gas is manageable even on my income.

 

[The Don]

Agreed. I have learned a lot from this discussion and I now know that the charging issue is not nearly as bad as I thought. It is, however, still considerably more time consuming that simply filling up at a gas station. On a longer trip stops would have to be planned ahead.

An EV with a real-world range approaching 300 miles would mean that on a long drive you'd have to stop to charge every three hours or so (assuming travel at 70mph or thereabouts). That's not a bad idea in any case.

I'm happy to drive for 6, 7, 8 or more hours straight, but that isn't necessarily that good an idea or even that safe.

People I know with EVs have managed to adapt their behaviour to accommodate these regular stops but as early adopters, maybe their willingness to change their behaviour is somewhat atypical.

15 years ago I used to cover 50,000 miles a year to and from client sites. I lived in an apartment and so even if I could have recharged on site, I wouldn't have been easily able to charge at home and an EB wouldn't be suitable for that kind of usage.

For the last 10 years or so I've been mostly working from home. Until recently I still did frequent 300 mile journeys and a longer range EV would have been borderline suitable.

Now an EV would be fine for pretty much all of my regular usage and for the once every couple of years I needed to travel further, I could change my behaviour or rent an alternative vehicle.

Again. I am not using this as a way to criticize EV's. The infrastructure will continue to improve, battery range will continue to improve, and the price of electric cars will hopefully continue to drop to a range where they are affordable for many more people. If I were younger and wealthier I would definitely see an EV in my future. As it is my current gas guzzler could well last me the rest of my driving life and $50 a month for gas is manageable even on my income.

This assumes that the price of fuel remains stable. If it were to be 10 times higher (or even 3-4 times higher as it is in parts of Europe) then the economic argument changes somewhat.

It's almost certain that our next purchase will be an EV. When that will be depends on how long Mrs Don's 12 year old Skoda keeps on going. If past experience is anything to go by, it could be a considerable time.

 

[jadebox]

Agreed. I have learned a lot from this discussion and I now know that the charging issue is not nearly as bad as I thought. It is, however, still considerably more time consuming that simply filling up at a gas station.


[...]


As it is my current gas guzzler could well last me the rest of my driving life and $50 a month for gas is manageable even on my income.

In your case, an EV probably doesn't make sense. But, in my case, for example, I was spending over $100 a month driving back and forth to work and stopping on the way home to fill up with gas every week or two. After buying my EV, I was spending less than $30 a month on electricity and never having to stop specifically to charge it or to fill it with gas.


Another benefit I have seen is not having to get an oil change every few months. I do, however, have to have the brake fluid replaced once a year, ironically because the car seldom uses the brakes and water can build up in the system.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

Sounds like a perfect time to engage in some political advocacy. Get other employees to sign a petition to put in a charging station. If your company doesn't own the location, petition your company and others to make a request demand for a charging station (or more, depending...). What's to lose by giving it a try?

The landlord that owns the worksite building can't even be bothered to fill potholes that look more like mortar strikes.

I very much doubt that encouraging installation of charging stations is going to work. Hell, climate change is a pressing issue. Mandate them. Even better, just have the city/state/nation install and operate them themselves.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

How realistic is swappable batteries?

Especially for fleet vehicles like buses or taxis, seems like having a depot with charged batteries ready to swap in seems like a good solution.

Hell, seems like a good solution for personal vehicles too. I may not have power at my parking spot, but every residence has power inside. I could see having a spare battery charging under a desk as a good solution for those that can't charge in place wherever the car is parked.

 

[The Don]

How realistic is swappable batteries?

Especially for fleet vehicles like buses or taxis, seems like having a depot with charged batteries ready to swap in seems like a good solution.

Hell, seems like a good solution for personal vehicles too. I may not have power at my parking spot, but every residence has power inside. I could see having a spare battery charging under a desk as a good solution for those that can't charge in place wherever the car is parked.

It's been mentioned upthread and I think the consensus was that it's a non-starter.

A battery small enough to carry to and from a vehicle and into a residence is unlikely to have enough capacity to make a significant difference.

The likely solution would be to have charging points everywhere, where you work, where you shop, where you eat, in the streets and possibly even allowing people to use domestic chargers. If I'm not using my charger outside my house, then why not allow someone to pay to use it to charge their car ?

Countries like Norway will act as a laboratory for the feasibility for this kind of thing. Norway is pretty good too because it has some urban centres but also a very sparsely populated hinterland.

I don't know how feasible the following is:

Charging equipment built into lamp posts is a new way of charging that utilises the existing highway infrastructure, helping to reduce overall installation costs. The first service to emerge in the UK was Ubitricity, whose customers purchase a smart cable from them to use their charging posts on lamp posts around London.

https://electricbrighton.com/faqs/how-do-people-with-no-driveway-charge-their-electric-cars