Ed A call for new open-minded research on psychic phenomena

[JayUtah]

I have stated that if there is something, we are clearly not going to find it with current tests.

And therefore putting the onus on science to come up with new and different tests, just as Pixel42 notes. Oh, look, you just did it again:

Either stop testing, or come up with something new.

Stop doing the same things over and over again, and expecting a different result.

That starts when those who hypothesize that something paranormal exists stop making the same claims over and over again and expect a different result from the scientific examination of those claims.

I have also stated that I would not be surprised if no psychic phenomena exists.

But you have a problem with people who have already drawn that conclusion and can thoroughly articulate the reasons why. You've utterly failed to address those reasons with rational discourse. All you manage to attempt is to shame them for drawing it.

And, for the record, I did not start, request, or title this thread.

You started a discussion of the topic tua sponte in a thread you believed was appropriate to what you wanted to say. When the management disagreed with that propriety, someone else continued the discussion in the way this forum is wont to operate. You had no problem participating in the new thread vigorously for six or so pages. Your disavowal is a little moot at this point.

I am not imploring anyone to do anything. It was just a simple observation.

It wasn't a simple observation, it was -- as we've now discovered -- a relatively vague and uninformed observation. You are unwilling or unable to support your assertions with supporting fact or analysis, or discuss the challenges to it in anything other than a dismissive, condescending tone. The best you seem to come up with is pithy straw men. And while you may not be specifically calling for action, you're clearly stating that the best the professionals have been able to do so far is not, in your opinion, suitable or sufficient. It has the same effect as a call to action.

I am done posting in this thread.

And the world of the paranormal weeps. You certainly did not acquit yourself very well as their champion.

 

[Skeptical Greg]

I am not imploring anyone to do anything.

You have been imploring people to come up with new methods for testing for the paranormal for over six pages..

 

[Mojo]

Large amounts of data were gathered at the LHC, enough to determine whether enough (very rare, intermittent is putting it mildly) events occurred which pointed to the existence of the Higgs Boson. If that data had shown no statistically significant effect, the conclusion would have been that the Higgs Boson did not exist, and those scientists who had hypothesised it did would have accepted that and abandoned that hypothesis. The latter is where we are with supposed paranormal phenomena, but you seem to be insisting we should refuse to abandon the hypothesis regardless.

The argument seems to be that we should refuse to abandon the hypothesis until we’ve found a methodology that confirms it.

 

[P.J. Denyer]

The argument seems to be that we should refuse to abandon the hypothesis until we’ve found a methodology that confirms it.

Apparently refusing to accept results is 'open minded'. However I think Warp12 is just having a good laugh watching people waste their time answering his non-arguements.

 

[Susheel]

The argument seems to be that we should refuse to abandon the hypothesis until we’ve found a methodology that confirms it.

But it isn't that what the tests currently administered do?Confirm the phenomenon claimed. There is no point designing a test to prove something wrong. You should be trying to prove something and fail to do it. Isn't that what falsifiability is about?

 

[Mojo]

But it isn't that what the tests currently administered do?Confirm the phenomenon claimed. There is no point designing a test to prove something wrong. You should be trying to prove something and fail to do it. Isn't that what falsifiability is about?

Yes, but Warp12 seems to be arguing that the tests are defective because they’ve falsified the hypothesis.

 

[Mojo]

It's a change in methods, that I suggest, not targeted at any specific phenomenon. It is not a condemnation of past efforts, either. It is like this Thomas Edison quote:

“I never once failed at making a light bulb. I just found out 99 ways not to make one.”

But what Edison didn’t do on those 99 occasions was to turn on the power and then sit in the dark demanding that someone find some other way of testing the bulb.

 

[theprestige]

Weirdly, the only person really wanting to close the book on paranormal investigation here is Warp12. Skeptics are, in general, more than happy to test any paranormal claim that comes their way. Sure it's been debunked every other time, but this is a new claimant, and we'll happily give them a new test.

And I'm sure there are researchers out there, coming up with ideas for how to search for paranormal evidence in ways and places nobody's asked about yet. I assume we don't hear much about them because of some combination of:
- they're not very good at it
- it's not a fruitful field of investigation
- they're not very good at making a compelling case for funding such research

---

It all makes me think of Octave Chanute, the historian who documented the state of the art in heavier than air flight research at the turn of the previous century. Nobody had achieved it yet, but Chanute gathered together all of the information gathered and progress made, from antiquity up to his present time, and wrote it all down. He also wrote down the most promising areas for further research, based on what had already been discovered and the dead ends that were already known. The Wright brothers consulted extensively with Chanute, when they were making their own attempt.

Warp12 doesn't have to be a paranormal researcher. He doesn't have to be the one coming up with new hypotheses and new experiments. But he's not even the historian. He's not even the guy finding out who's doing work along those lines and keeping track of their progress and reporting it to the rest of us.

He's got comprehensive headgear, but no beeves in sight.

 

[Scorpion]

Also

Brave Sir Warp12 ran away.

Bravely ran away away.

When questions reared their ugly head he bravely turned his tail and fled.

Yes brave Sir Warp12 turned about and gallantly he chickened out.

Bravely taking to his feet he beat a very brave retreat.

Bravest of the brave, Sir Warp12!

Maybe he is just taking a break to recharge his batteries. I know what it is like to be barraged with awkward questions from all sides.

 

[Darat]

Maybe he is just taking a break to recharge his batteries. I know what it is like to be barraged with awkward questions from all sides.

Only awkward because you don’t like the answers.

 

[theprestige]

Only awkward because you don’t like the answers.

And even then it's only awkward because he's making claims that depend on having the answers. It's not the questions that are awkward. It's not the lack of answers that's awkward. It's that Scorpion has chosen to take an awkward position, and then complain when everyone else points out how awkward it is.

So has Warp12.

 

[Matthew Best]

Your post reminded me of the time a few years back when a convicted rapist serving a long prison sentence won the UK lottery. Quite a few people were utterly astonished and outraged. "But that's not supposed to happen!".

Yes, but the thing that they thought was not supposed to happen was not him winning the lottery as such, but the fact that he was allowed to play the lottery, while he was not allowed to play the football pools or buy Premium Bonds or gamble in other ways. The lottery seemed to be an anomaly in that respect.

 

[theprestige]

Warp12, your should consult with Scorpion. You want alternative research approaches, he's got one for you. Happy to go into it in some detail, for a receptive audience.

 

[Scorpion]

To get back on topic. There is an experiment Doctors could do on people who hear voices.
They could give them a static bath in electricity with a wimshurst Machine and see if the voices stop. The theory being that the voices may be obsessing entities in a persons aura.
The entities cannot stand static electricity and would exit the aura. I wrote a letter to the secretary of the spiritualist association in the 1970's asking him how to safely apply a static charge to a patient, but he did not answer me.
However I know from other sources that some time ago mental hospitals use to give patients static baths, by seating them on a wooden chair on top of a glass topped table. So that they were insulated from the ground. Then they grounded one terminal of the static machine and applied the other terminal to the patient. This would charge them up with static without harming them. I can envisage a problem with that because as soon as the patient steps off the table they will get a violent shock as they discharge to the ground. I imagine there was some way of slowly discharging the patient so they did not get a shock.
Thomas Johanson said the spiritualist association stopped giving people static charges because even if they cleared the persons aura of entities the person would soon get obsessed again. But I think they could be trained in psychic self defense, and self healing
so that this would not happen.

 

[junkshop]

To get back on topic. There is an experiment Doctors could do on people who hear voices.
They could give them a static bath in electricity with a wimshurst Machine and see if the voices stop. The theory being that the voices may be obsessing entities in a persons aura.
The entities cannot stand static electricity and would exit the aura. I wrote a letter to the secretary of the spiritualist association in the 1970's asking him how to safely apply a static charge to a patient, but he did not answer me.

It was the '70s. Static electricity was endemic, what with all the nylon, polyester and shagpile. How were there any 'obsessing entities' (outsde of the cheeseclothy Good Life types, obviously)?

 

[Axxman300]

To get back on topic. There is an experiment Doctors could do on people who hear voices.
They could give them a static bath in electricity with a wimshurst Machine and see if the voices stop. The theory being that the voices may be obsessing entities in a persons aura.
The entities cannot stand static electricity and would exit the aura. I wrote a letter to the secretary of the spiritualist association in the 1970's asking him how to safely apply a static charge to a patient, but he did not answer me.
However I know from other sources that some time ago mental hospitals use to give patients static baths, by seating them on a wooden chair on top of a glass topped table. So that they were insulated from the ground. Then they grounded one terminal of the static machine and applied the other terminal to the patient. This would charge them up with static without harming them. I can envisage a problem with that because as soon as the patient steps off the table they will get a violent shock as they discharge to the ground. I imagine there was some way of slowly discharging the patient so they did not get a shock.
Thomas Johanson said the spiritualist association stopped giving people static charges because even if they cleared the persons aura of entities the person would soon get obsessed again. But I think they could be trained in psychic self defense, and self healing
so that this would not happen.

Please explain how a static electric charge is different to the human body than a regular electric charge.

In my experience if someone is hearing voices and they aren't schizo then they should get their home tested for high levels of CO2.

 

[Scorpion]

Please explain how a static electric charge is different to the human body than a regular electric charge.

In my experience if someone is hearing voices and they aren't schizo then they should get their home tested for high levels of CO2.

Regular electric charge works too, but it kills you. That is until they invented the TENs machines that apply a low voltage. Primarily intended to stimulate the muscles. I read in a book that entities cannot stand even low voltages, so a TENs machine is supposed to work cleansing the aura of entities too. I purchased one and applied it to my stomach, but I still heard voices.

I also purchased a wimshurst machine, but one of the disks was cracked in transit and it does not work. The manufacturers declined to send me a new disk, but they refunded my money. Just as well it did not work as I might have given myself an almighty shock by now.

 

[MarkCorrigan]

To get back on topic. There is an experiment Doctors could do on people who hear voices.
They could give them a static bath in electricity with a wimshurst Machine and see if the voices stop. The theory being that the voices may be obsessing entities in a persons aura.

That isn't a theory. You've literally just assumed that auras are real (they aren't) and that there are "entities" (there aren't) and that these "entities" can attach to the aura. You've made three bald assertions with no evidence for them. Before any of the rest of this post is even worth considering please show that auras exist, that entities exist, and that entities can attach to auras.

Use evidence, not just "some spiritualist said so" or "I believe it therefore it's true" which is all you've ever been able to provide.

 

[Scorpion]

That isn't a theory. You've literally just assumed that auras are real (they aren't) and that there are "entities" (there aren't) and that these "entities" can attach to the aura. You've made three bald assertions with no evidence for them. Before any of the rest of this post is even worth considering please show that auras exist, that entities exist, and that entities can attach to auras.

Use evidence, not just "some spiritualist said so" or "I believe it therefore it's true" which is all you've ever been able to provide.

People, including myself, hear disembodied voices. It is not unreasonable of them to think they may be obsessed by entities. There has to be an explanation why people hear voices, and to exclude the possibility of entities is ignorance.

 

[MarkCorrigan]

People, including myself, hear disembodied voices. It is not unreasonable of them to think they may be obsessed by entities. There has to be an explanation why people hear voices, and to exclude the possibility of entities is ignorance.

The explanation is auditory hallucinations. Especially for you as you are a self confessed schizophrenic.

There are perfectly valid explanations that do not require the making up of entities, and even if there were not there would need to be actual evidence of entities in the first place.

It is entirely unreasonable to assume they are entities when a much more parsimonious and logical explanation exists.

One time while at university, I was walking to one of my seminars when I quite clearly and distinctly heard someone calling my name from behind me. When I turned around there was no one there. Would you say it is reasonable to assume that I had heard from an entity?

What if I told you I had been awake for 5 days straight? Would that alter your assumption?