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Ed A call for new open-minded research on psychic phenomena

No, they aren't Warp. Why are you continuing to lie about what people are saying?
 
Warp12 said:
But, when it comes to a coincidence, some are saying, in essence, "no matter how long the odds, or how bizarre the scenario, we'll just attribute that to chance. They are all the same...because in a large test group some random zany stuff is going to happen". That way of thinking doesn't work for me, and it never will.
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Then you should stop insisting on it. Your critics are the ones asking for details about the various scenarios you say we should be looking at. We're asking so that we can see whether some detail bears on the length of the odds or the uniqueness of the situation. You've stated in no uncertain terms that you won't be providing any of those details, precisely because you don't want the ensuing discussion. Since you categorically refuse to provide the necessary and asked-for specificity, you're clearly okay with your critics treating them as all uniform. What seem to upset you is that they treat them more uniformly critically than you do. You seem to want to assume all the inuitively guessed-at likelihoods are as tiny as can be imagined.
 
Heh. I just realized that Warp12's complaint is just that nobody has ever bothered to seriously control for the invisible dragon in the garage. We're all so focused on testing the clairvoyant claim as such. But what if the dragon is real and we're remiss in not looking for it?
 
If Eva Mendes ends up in Warp's bed and he can't explain it, then perhaps it's something worth investigating as to how such a strange thing could have happened.

Until that actually happens, the discussion seems rather pointless. It reminds me of a lot of discussion on the paranormal or on religion where believers, instead of providing evidence for some interesting claim, just argue that skeptics wouldn't believe the evidence anyway.

i.e. if Eva Mendes showed up in Warp's bed, then it would just be dismissed as a natural event instead of being investigated as a possible paranormal event. It hasn't happened, so it can't actually be investigated as either natural or paranormal or whatever, it's just a pointless hypothetical.
 
Warp12 said:
I like where this is headed. :)

But seriously, I see people here talking about numbers, and using their relatively precise nature to justify a conclusion. "We didn't see anything outside of chance in the tests, based on our math". Which is very reasonable.

But, when it comes to a coincidence, some are saying, in essence, "no matter how long the odds, or how bizarre the scenario, we'll just attribute that to chance. They are all the same...because in a large test group some random zany stuff is going to happen". That way of thinking doesn't work for me, and it never will.

So, I think we can put the debate to rest. At least my involvement. I won’t be discussing “coincidence” anymore, in this thread.
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Is clairvoyance that's indistinguishable from coincidence really clairvoyance at all?

And so what if it is? So what if there is some paranormal blessing out there, that touches only a lucky few? That gives them the power to exactly the same thing everyone else does by accident all the time?

Why on earth would anyone even bother to look for something like that? You certainly haven't bothered.
 
Warp12 said:
Let me ask you this...

If we were to conclusively discover evidence of any single notable paranormal phenomenon, is there any level of investment in time and money that would make you say, "it wasn't worth it"?
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Yes, obviously. The level of time and money you have invested is a good benchmark. Obviously it's not worth it to you, to invest every iota of time and money at your disposal in the pursuit of these things.

Why should I care about your questions, more than you care about your questions?
 
Warp12 said:
But, when it comes to a coincidence, some are saying, in essence, "no matter how long the odds, or how bizarre the scenario, we'll just attribute that to chance. They are all the same...because in a large test group some random zany stuff is going to happen". That way of thinking doesn't work for me, and it never will.
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So it's exactly as I predicted - your intuition as to whether an event is unlikely enough to warrant a paranormal explanation is all that matters, to hell with any maths that proves that such coincidences happen no more often than would be expected by chance.

Common sense has proved to be a very poor guide to the nature of reality, most of modern physics is counterintuitive. We regularly have posters on this board arguing that the theory of relativity doesn't make sense, and it always comes down to their unwillingness to accept that their intuition is simply wrong. "That way of thinking doesn't work for me, and it never will" sums up the attitude of every physics crackpot I have ever encountered. Get it through your head: the universe doesn't care whether its laws make sense to you. And neither do the generations of scientists who devoted their whole lives to discovering what those laws are.

Note that, even though any individual coincidence cannot be attributed to the paranormal, it's perfectly possible to investigate whether unlikely coincidences are happening more often than would be expected by chance using the scientific method, and hence prove that there really is something paranormal going on. So why don't you get right on that, and come back and rub our faces in the objective evidence when you've got it. We'll wait.
 
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My internet was out for three days and I come back to this.

Proving psychic phenomena should be pretty easy.

Step 1: Find a psychic.

Step 2: Identify the psychic's claimed ability.

Step 3: Test it in an controlled environment until proven or disproved.

Step 4: Find another psychic and repeat steps 1-3.

That's it.

All the fancy expensive machinery would come into play AFTER a successful test.

All that other stuff about how in the past we believed the earth to be flat, and blood letting to cure disease, and Edison is nothing more than worn out smoke trowing. Somehow we've gone 7 pages without someone throwing in quantum theory incorrectly.

Psychic power is a physical ability, as is passing gas. The difference is that I can heat up a can of Dennison's chili and within a n hour walk into a controlled environment and let rip. I can do this every time. Yet for some reason no psychic has been able to let rip, so to speak.

No psychic predicted 911, or our invasion of Afghanistan. No psychic has cured cancer or mended bone. Someone claiming to have this ability should pass the tests with flying colors.
 
Scorpion said:
I would have to ask. do people here think God would create a universe like this one, and a spirit world to which we go to when we die, and not separate the two?
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Easy. Suppose you are god. You create a universe. Would it be better or worse than the universe we have? Would you intentionally make noxious diseases? Or would you do a better job of it?

Scorpion said:
I suggest science will never discover the spirit world because it is beyond the earthy universe and functions on a different level. We are not meant to gain access to it.
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Then your god is a shod. You know those people that turn up offereing to tarmac your drive? That is your god We all point and laugh at people who fall for that old scam, right?

Scorpion said:
Can you imagine the human race getting power over the angels, or invading the spirit world. You can only know the psychic and spiritual by spiritual means not by science.
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I can imagine I am a Jedi. I can imagine I am the Pope. I can imagine whatever I like. My imagining it does not make it real.
 
Warp12 said:
I have done no such thing.
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To be fair, this is true. You only keep insisting that something might be there, despite not being able to point to one iota of objective evidence of it, and demanding that some new type of investigation be done to find it, despite having no suggestions as to how. The fact that one or other is essential before anyone can even consider doing as you demand seems to still be escaping you.
 
Pixel42 said:
To be fair, this is true. You only keep insisting that something might be there, despite not being able to point to one iota of objective evidence of it, and demanding that some new type of investigation be done to find it, despite having no suggestions as to how. The fact that one or other is essential before anyone can even consider doing as you demand seems to still be escaping you.
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I have not done that, either.

I have stated that if there is something, we are clearly not going to find it with current tests. They have turned up nothing. There is no point in continuing down that path, imo. Either stop testing, or come up with something new. Stop doing the same things over and over again, and expecting a different result.

I have also stated that I would not be surprised if no psychic phenomena exists. I will not be losing any sleep over it, either way.

And, for the record, I did not start, request, or title this thread. I am not imploring anyone to do anything. It was just a simple observation.

I am done posting in this thread.
 
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Warp12 said:
I have not done that, either.
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That's odd. Because as a small child finding out god was not real I went on a personal journey investigating whatever I could find. All of it had one common thing. A lack of evidence.

Warp12 said:
I have stated that if there is something, we are clearly not going to find it with current tests. They have turned up nothing. There is no point in continuing down that path, imo. Either stop testing, or come up with something new.Yes. You did indeed state that. You also stated that you had no idea what we should look for, what tests one might apply for the thing we are not looking for, or how or why such imaginary tests might work for an imaginary thing that does not exist.

Warp12 said:
Stop doing the same things over and over again, and expecting a different result.
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New irony meter, stat.

Warp12 said:
I have also stated that I would not be surprised if no psychic phenomena exists. I will not be losing any sleep over it, either way.
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Yet it does bother you. Why is that?

Warp12 said:
And, for the record, I did not start, request, or title this thread. I am not imploring anyone to do anything. It was just a simple observation.
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This is a discussion forum. By posting here you invite discussion. That is it's purpose.

That is what it is for.
Warp12 said:
I am done posting in this thread.
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Nope.
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Warp12 said:
I have stated that if there is something, we are clearly not going to find it with current tests. They have turned up nothing. There is no point in continuing down that path, imo. Either stop testing, or come up with something new. Stop doing the same things over and over again, and expecting a different result.
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Once again: what different tests would you suggest?
This, as Axxman300 so succinctly puts, is what has been done so far:

Axxman300 said:
Proving psychic phenomena should be pretty easy.

Step 1: Find a psychic.

Step 2: Identify the psychic's claimed ability.

Step 3: Test it in an controlled environment until proven or disproved.

Step 4: Find another psychic and repeat steps 1-3.
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To reiterate: this is what has been done so far, and no psychic powers of any kind have been revealed.
What, exactly, is wrong with this approach?

Science is a matter of observation. You observe a phenomenon, then try to understand it.
If observation is not the correct tool for testing the paranormal, with what would you replace it, and why?
 
Warp12 said:
I have stated that if there is something, we are clearly not going to find it with current tests. They have turned up nothing. There is no point in continuing down that path, imo. Either stop testing, or come up with something new. Stop doing the same things over and over again, and expecting a different result.
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Are you aware that for the most part, scientists have stopped testing, as of many years ago? There are few university parapsychology departments or degree programs still in existence, and (as far as I know) none where you can get credit for a thesis based on ******* around with Zener cards or bending spoons. The Men who Stare at Goats is a ten year old movie mocking government paranormal research conducted over 30 years earlier. The Million Dollar Challenge is closed. Television mediums and telephone psychics know better than to have their abilities tested, and no one cares any more if some faith healer uses a radio (and everyone carries sophisticated two-way radio devices around with them constantly anyhow).

So who exactly are you telling to stop testing? Do you think we should also stop using 8-track tapes and making so many buggy whips? There are a few skeptics societies who still test the claims people bring to them to be tested, and as so many others in this thread have pointed out unacknowledged by you, they test the claims that are made. There are still fringe researchers like Sheldrake and the Noetics groups who try to recast psi hypotheses and spiritual experiences into different terms like "morphogenic fields" and "subjective studies." Though those aren't all that new any more either, aren't they still exactly what you're calling for?
 
Also

Brave Sir Warp12 ran away.

Bravely ran away away.

When questions reared their ugly head he bravely turned his tail and fled.

Yes brave Sir Warp12 turned about and gallantly he chickened out.

Bravely taking to his feet he beat a very brave retreat.

Bravest of the brave, Sir Warp12!
 
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