Trump's Second Term

[smartcooky]

Indeed. So again... What proof is there that the US Christmas attacks on Nigeria hit terrorists of any sort? Beyond Trump claiming that is the case.

What evidence do we ever have that any government has struck the correct target. Answer - none. I'm not the person you should direct your question to. You should write to the Nigerian government - they seem happy enough with what the US did.

PS: Your snipping out of the awkward questions you can't answer is noted!

 

[smartcooky]

Not really the impression that I took away from the posts, myself. Rather, Trump and his Administration's record of engaging in indiscriminate harm over and over and brazenly lying about all kinds of things over and over leads to entirely understandable doubts. When it comes to Nigeria, specifically, the previous statements made have been quite problematic, as well.

Well, its the impression I took!

IF the air strikes were actually truly against IS and Boko Haram based on solid intel and IF the Nigerian government was actually supportive of the action, rather than coerced to pretend to support it, it could be a good thing.

So far, the ONLY evidence we have to go on is what has been published.

- We will probably never know anything about the intel that was used to plan and co-ordinate the strikes.

- Most media are reporting that Nigeria fully approved of the action. NO media (so far) has stated the Nigerians were coerced. Ergo, we go with the evidence we have so far we have got until something changes... this is how skepticism works

Quoting Sagan as I like to...
"We wish to pursue the truth no matter where it leads—but to find the truth, we need imagination and skepticism both. We will not be afraid to speculate, but we will be careful to distinguish speculation from fact."

Trump and his Administration have made both of those considerations thoroughly doubtful, though. That propensity to just sling about accusations of some variety of "those people are very, very bad people, so just trust us as we ignore laws and principles to hurt them" at anyone they feel like with no regard for truth works against trust there particularly strongly.

As another side note, the timing fairly certainly plays into the criticism. It's really not wrong to consider Trump's words and actions as profaning the Christmas spirit, after all.

I don't think his words have anything to do with the strike itself. That's just his usual dumbspeak "stream of consciousness" babble.

And? Are you really trying to pretend that Obama's record and statements were anywhere close to as objectionable as Trump's?

Of course not, but I can understand why you might think that, given that you separated two parts of a point that were supposed to be taken together

Sure. First, though, note there the part where the militants dramatically outnumbered the civilians. Second, note that "the Left" did criticize Obama and his Administration over that.

The left here in this forum (which is what I specified didn't. Not a word.
Evens whiny I pointed it out in this very thread, crickets.

Third, Trump, well...

US dramatically escalates air strikes on Somalia under Trump this year
Trump’s strike total on conflict-ridden East African nation exceeds Bush, Obama and Biden administrations combined.

If that is terrorists they are striking then good,. More please

That speaks for itself. Generally speaking, having a very selfish mentally ill guy who has made it clear that he wants Canada, Greenland, and more to submit and join the US and who put a guy who declared that war crimes are to be standard practice now in charge of military operations is naturally cause for much greater concern overall than is caused by an intelligent person who demonstrated that he actually cares about morals and the good of the country.

No argument with that

I have yet to see reasonable argument to the contrary.

I was referring to your last sentence.. "It's as simple as that."

In my experience, nothing in politics is simple

 

[arthwollipot]

STFU. You know NOTHING about me.

I am politically a centrist - I always have been, and I always will be. There is no way I will ever shackle myself to an extremist political tribe the way you have.

No, you're not. Every issue you talk about is a right wing talking point. The war on "woke" is a right wing culture war. Trans hostility is deeply embedded in the right wing. Fearmongering about immigrants and terrorists is classic deep right wing. And yes, stoking conspiracy theories about the "radical left" extremist ideology is incredibly right wing.

You've been so bamboozled by all the gaslighting that you think that where you sit on these issues is a centrist position. It isn't.

There is no way I will ever shackle myself to an extremist political tribe the way you have.

In my experience, nothing in politics is simple

One of these things is not like the other.

 

[Darat]

Indeed. So again... What proof is there that the US Christmas attacks on Nigeria hit terrorists of any sort? Beyond Trump claiming that is the case.

I was fortunate enough to live a few years in Nigeria as a kid, mainly in Kano. I still have friends from back then that I have some contact with and I've remained interested in the country all my life. The country is again going through one of its more volitile periods. Sadly these periods seem to be almost cyclical, and even more sadly they are either created or exploited (cause and effect is hard to establish) by the powerful in the country. An example of this is how certain groups are now using the USA to further their goals, the USA is being played for a fool.

(Note this is not to say atrocities aren't happening, that there are no problems.) Nigeria is a very complex country by any definition, and by any sensible criteria it should not be a single country. Missile strikes by another country will do absolutely nothing to address the country's problems, they won't make one person safer.

 

[smartcooky]

No, you're not. Every issue you talk about is a right wing talking point.

You only think that because you are cherry picking my posts.

Go have a look back at US Politics forums during the time of The Fat Orange Turd's first term, and the Biden presidency. When you don't cherry pick the debates that fit your preferred view of me, you'll find a very, very different story.

 

[Mojo]

Trump supporters hail US strikes in Nigeria as ‘amazing Christmas present’

Some even celebrated ‘mass killing’ and the president’s ‘resolve’ in attacking Islamic State targets

www.theguardian.com

 

[Tero]

Went through about 100 posts on threads. It was about Trump and Epstein. All kinds of links and photos and babies dumped in Lake Michigan. The MAGA people responding, ten or more, all said pretty much "so there are pictures of Trump and Epstein, so what?" They are not going to look at any document from the files unless it is shown on Fox News.

 

[jimbob]

Exactly.

The president of the United States is going to have occasions when there are good reasons to order military strikes. And indeed I think Obama was too cautious, in Syria, for example.

However there is a difference between a well-considered strike and sabre rattling followed by ones that don't seem to have any specific goals beyond "hitting Boko Haram" (whatever that means).

Let alone the strikes against claimed drugs smugglers. Asking whether those were probably guilty or not is missing the point. Due process exists for a very good reason. And committing war crimes is counterproductive on top of everything else wrong with it.

Expanding on this. I suspect his approach to foreign policy gives an insight into how he ran his businesses.

Keep on changing things so he could see an impact and be unable to leave anything alone. It isn't that he can't make decisions. It's that he makes decisions quickly, acts on them and then makes different decisions soon after, which he also acts on.

 

[shemp]

Boy, it's a good thing these Islamic terrorists got bombed!

Fear and confusion in Nigerian village hit in US strike, as locals say no history of ISIS in area

A day after part of a missile fired by the United States hit their village, landing just meters from its only medical facility, the people of Jabo in northwestern Nigeria are in a state of shock and confusion.

Suleiman Kagara, a resident of this quiet and predominantly Muslim farming community in Tambuwal district of Sokoto state, told CNN he heard a loud blast and saw flames as a projectile flew overhead at around 10 p.m. on Thursday.

Soon after, it came crashing down, exploding on impact with the ground and sending the villagers fleeing in fear.

“We couldn’t sleep last night,” Kagara said. “We’ve never seen anything like this before.”

Kagara did not realize it at the time, but what he was witnessing was part of a US strike that President Donald Trump would later refer to as a “Christmas present” for terrorists.

While parts of Sokoto face challenges with banditry, kidnappings and attacks by armed groups including Lakurawa – which Nigeria classifies as a terrorist organization due to suspected affiliations with Islamic State – villagers say Jabo is not known for terrorist activity and that local Christians coexist peacefully with the Muslim majority.

Bashar Isah Jabo, a lawmaker representing Tambuwal in the state parliament, described the village to CNN as “a peaceful community” that has “no known history of ISIS, Lakurawa, or any other terrorist groups operating in the area.”

He said the projectile had struck a field “approximately 500 meters” from a Primary Health Center in Jabo and that, while there were no casualties, the incident had “caused fear and panic within the community.”

I'm sure a certain poster will be here any minute now to tell us that these people are liars and perhaps ISIS terrorists themselves.

Nigeria’s Information Ministry later said that the government, in collaboration with the US, had “successfully conducted precision strike operations” targeting ISIS hideouts in the forests of Tangaza district in Sokoto.

That's really good precision, dropping million-dollar bombs that the taxpayers paid for into an empty field. Oh, silly me, of course the trillions in tariffs paid for it!

 

[Mojo]

Went through about 100 posts on threads. It was about Trump and Epstein. All kinds of links and photos and babies dumped in Lake Michigan. The MAGA people responding, ten or more, all said pretty much "so there are pictures of Trump and Epstein, so what?" They are not going to look at any document from the files unless it is shown on Fox News.

Even then they are just going to be looking at the pictures.

 

[W.D.Clinger]

Obama didn't lie about anything and everything all of the time. Obama didn't hide stats that showed him in a poor light. Obama didn't spend his entire presidency ◊◊◊◊ posting on social media just to "trigger the libs". He was, more or less, an honest man and when he did things the general population felt he did them for the right reasons.

Your left-wing bias is showing, as your cherry-picking failed to say Obama was a thin-skinned narcissist and wore a tan suit.

 

[Aridas]

Well, its the impression I took!

As you said. To be clear, I wasn't trying to deny what you saw there, just noting that I didn't see the same and why.

So far, the ONLY evidence we have to go on is what has been published.

- We will probably never know anything about the intel that was used to plan and co-ordinate the strikes.

- Most media are reporting that Nigeria fully approved of the action. NO media (so far) has stated the Nigerians were coerced. Ergo, we go with the evidence we have so far we have got until something changes... this is how skepticism works

Quoting Sagan as I like to...
"We wish to pursue the truth no matter where it leads—but to find the truth, we need imagination and skepticism both. We will not be afraid to speculate, but we will be careful to distinguish speculation from fact."

And the evidence that was published was minimal and very, very incomplete. It is not out of line to speculate within larger context, though it would be out of line to firmly conclude. It is also not out of line to withhold judgement while remaining rather doubtful.

I don't think his words have anything to do with the strike itself. That's just his usual dumbspeak "stream of consciousness" babble.

Trump calls Nigeria strike his ‘Christmas present’ to ISIS

“I said yesterday, ‘Hit them on Christmas Day. It will be a Christmas present.’ We hit ISIS, who are terrible. They are butchers. We really hit them hard in different locations. They really got hit hard yesterday. They got a very bad Christmas present,” Trump told John Catsimatidis on WABC.

The president said he “told Nigeria, and I told the people around Nigeria, that if you do it, you’re going to get hit.”

Hard to take his words in any other way and also by his own words, he acted to coerce Nigeria, which makes it much, much more difficult to take them at their word that they're fully onboard with the strikes, even if they actually were.

As far as I'm concerned, that was a foul perversion of the Christmas spirit. To be clear, I'm not fundamentally against striking terrorists on Christmas, but calling that a Christmas gift to them is totally against the Christmas spirit, before getting the rest.

Of course not, but I can understand why you might think that, given that you separated two parts of a point that were supposed to be taken together

It's mostly because you combined them as you did that led to that question, with the separation just being mildly convenient at the time to separate the thoughts more clearly.

The left here in this forum (which is what I specified didn't. Not a word.

At the time? I fully admit that I have no desire to go through Obama era threads to verify that, though I am doubtful that the left had not a word spoken about the drone strikes. It is something that I recall the left complaining about occasionally back in the Obama years, though.

Evens whiny I pointed it out in this very thread, crickets.

And what is there to reasonably expect as a response? Someone getting triggered and snapping back at you because you didn't remember something from a decade or more ago?

I was referring to your last sentence.. "It's as simple as that."

In my experience, nothing in politics is simple

In fair part because politics is a combination and interaction of a lot of different things. If you focus on one particular bit, it does tend to get much simpler.

 

[TragicMonkey]

A difference that is completely irrelevant.

Do you think thieves, burglars and shoplifters should be allowed to get away with their crimes because they didn't steal from you?
Do you think hit and run drivers should be allowed to get away with their crimes because they didn't run you down?
Do you think murderers should be allowed to get away with their crimes because they didn't kill a member of your family?

Terrorism is terrorism, no matter to is doing it. Every terrorist organizations needs to be in constant fear of attack - let them feel what its like for their victims.

It is entirely relevant. You are suggesting it is the responsibility of the US to be a world policeman. That's not in any nation's interest, including the US's.

 

[Mojo]

As far as I'm concerned, that was a foul perversion of the Christmas spirit. To be clear, I'm not fundamentally against striking terrorists on Christmas, but calling that a Christmas gift to them is totally against the Christmas spirit, before getting the rest.

He's essentially a cartoon villain.

 

[shemp]

Hard to take his words in any other way and also by his own words, he acted to coerce Nigeria, which makes it much, much more difficult to take them at their word that they're fully onboard with the strikes, even if they actually were.

They may be onboard in the same way that the bank manager who's tied up with a gun to his head is onboard with giving the bank robbers the combination to the vault.

 

[Andy_Ross]

But those libs though, they sure are triggered by it so whatever Donald does is OK by me!

 

[Mojo]

It is entirely relevant. You are suggesting it is the responsibility of the US to be a world policeman.

I remember someone (P J O'Rourke?) writing that the US's role as world policeman was usually that of "a big dumb flatfoot in the middle of a domestic".

 

[Safe-Keeper]

Terrorism is terrorism, no matter to is doing it. Every terrorist organizations needs to be in constant fear of attack - let them feel what its like for their victims.

This completely misunderstands, or ignores, the intent of terrorism in the first place.
Edit: Also, condemning foreign terrorism while supporting a regime that wantonly blows up random boats on the high seas is just wild to me.

 

[Aridas]

He's essentially a cartoon villain.

Back near the beginning of Trump's first term, cartoon/comic book writers said that Trump was actually too over the top dumb and bad to be used as a villain, because it just wouldn't be believable and thus wouldn't sell.

They may be onboard in the same way that the bank manager who's tied up with a gun to his head is onboard with giving the bank robbers the combination to the vault.

Maybe. Hence the original "if." I won't pretend to have insider knowledge, but Trump and his Administration have given plenty of cause not to give him and his Administration the benefit of the doubt.

 

[smartcooky]

Boy, it's a good thing these Islamic terrorists got bombed!

Fear and confusion in Nigerian village hit in US strike, as locals say no history of ISIS in area







I'm sure a certain poster will be here any minute now to tell us that these people are liars and perhaps ISIS terrorists themselves.



That's really good precision, dropping million-dollar bombs that the taxpayers paid for into an empty field. Oh, silly me, of course the trillions in tariffs paid for it!

First, the sensational headline gets your attention.... Village Bombed in US air Strike

So then you read the article, and find a somewhat different story..

A day after part of a missile fired by the United States hit their village, landing just meters from its only medical facility, the people of Jabo in northwestern Nigeria are in a state of shock and confusion.​

​

He said the projectile had struck a field “approximately 500 meters” from a Primary Health Center in Jabo and that, while there were no casualties,​

​

Nigeria’s Information Ministry later said that the government, in collaboration with the US, had “successfully conducted precision strike operations” targeting ISIS hideouts in the forests of Tangaza district in Sokoto.​

However, it also noted that “during the course of the operation, debris from expended munitions fell in Jabo,” and another area in north-central Kwara state – though it stressed there had been no civilian casualties.​

So the village wasn't "bombed" after all... some debris from an exploded missile fell in a field "just metres" away... Yeah, just 500 metres away!! (for the Americans in the room, thats a third of a ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊ mile!).

FFS use your critical thinking skills folks and start employing some skepticism. Read the whole article, don't just knee jerk to the sensationalist headline.