Merged why the release of names associated with Epstein mean little to absolutely nothing.

[Venom]

I don't think it's offensive to look for ways to downplay the depravity of a predator and child sex offender remains a deeply weird hill to die on.

Whenever there's a side discussion about the ethics of criticizing accusers and such you always come with this line. Suggestions of ethical or sexual improprieties of anyone who dares question the prevailing narrative is a cheap and childish tactic.

 

[johnny karate]

Whenever there's a side discussion about the ethics of criticizing accusers and such you always come with this line. Suggestions of ethical or sexual improprieties of anyone who dares question the prevailing narrative is a cheap and childish tactic.

This feigned indignation coming hot off the heels of you questioning the ethics of Epstein's accusers. Quite rich.

 

[Thermal]

IN the bathrooms or on the floor where his bathroom was in that mansion?

Reporting is of a video surveillance room where pinhole cameras were viewable in toilets and bedrooms (see his Wiki page for summary and sources).

 

[Venom]

Power imbalance is a thing, and between Epstein/Maxwell and the girls they abused, there was no balance at all. Grooming is sometimes very subtle, and very difficult to see if you are inexperienced, and just like domestic abuse, the process is insidious, and debilitating to the victim, who will be taught to think that no one else will want them, or care for them.

Or, for that matter, believe them.

Maybe he didn't abuse everyone. That does not mean that he didn't abuse anyone.

Maybe this is a good aside for the "Does 'rape culture' accurately describe (many) societies?" thread.

I'm very suspicious of modern formulations of this concept. I hear women, especially younger women, swear that they feel differently about a past relationship, that it was borderline abuse, or grooming, just because of an age disparity, or certain aspects of their partner that in retrospect were "creepy". But this I don't see much of in older gen women. I don't see the same hypersensitivity. Which makes me believe this could be a psychosocial phenomenon to an extent.

Take a look at the birthday book, "request no. 1", page 203, the letter with the blue circles. An astute observer noticed that the censors missed the signature "dg". This is Anouska De Georgiou, a British socialite and very good friend of Epstein until well after he was released from jail. She also testified against Ghislaine Maxwell using a pseudonym. Of course they had to redact everything they could about her because we wouldn't want a settlement receiver and government witness to be revealed as an Epstein lover.

If this is kind of crap we can expect in the rest of the files, they should just keep everything sealed.

 

[Venom]

Reporting is of a video surveillance room where pinhole cameras were viewable in toilets and bedrooms (see his Wiki page for summary and sources).

I'm not sure which report you're referring to exactly but if it's Maria Farmer, yeah, she is probably the least credible Epstein accuser of all time. You shouldn't believe a word she says.

 

[Venom]

This feigned indignation coming hot off the heels of you questioning the ethics of Epstein's accusers. Quite rich.

Oh please. You permit any and every rumor about anyone accused of having coffee with Epstein. But the moment anyone pushes back critically you cry foul.

 

[Helen]

I am closing in on 70. My experience of older women and their stories of abuse is very different from yours. They, and I, are very happy that young women of today are just a little more aware of their rights, and know that their body is theirs to do with exactly as  they will. I am also happy to note that more and more men agree, and understand this, I think we all are better off with this in mind.

I am not sure that we will get anything out of continuing this discussion. The way you talk about the young women does not make me feel that we are getting anywhere close to agreeing about most aspects of this very sordid, but not uncommon, story. The pnly thing that stunds our about it is the scope of it ä, and the people involved, but apart from that, similar things happen every day.

 

[johnny karate]

Oh please. You permit any and every rumor about anyone accused of having coffee with Epstein. But the moment anyone pushes back critically you cry foul.

Either questioning the ethics of other people is an offense or it isn't.

Someone who treats it as an offense only when it happens to them while they feel free to do it to other people is some crybully bull ◊◊◊◊.

Also, someone who goes to great lengths to downplay the offenses of a sex offender by attacking his victims probably has some shared interests with the sex offender.

 

[johnny karate]

I am closing in on 70. My experience of older women and their stories of abuse is very different from yours. They, and I, are very happy that young women of today are just a little more aware of their rights, and know that their body is theirs to do with exactly as  they will. I am also happy to note that more and more men agree, and understand this, I think we all are better off with this in mind.

I am not sure that we will get anything out of continuing this discussion. The way you talk about the young women does not make me feel that we are getting anywhere close to agreeing about most aspects of this very sordid, but not uncommon, story. The pnly thing that stunds our about it is the scope of it ä, and the people involved, but apart from that, similar things happen every day.

Hard to believe that someone mansplaining the experiences of women to a woman might not be providing accurate information.

 

[Venom]

Either questioning the ethics of other people is an offense or it isn't.

Someone who treats it as an offense only when it happens to them while they feel free to do it to other people is some crybully bull ◊◊◊◊.

Also, someone who goes to great lengths to downplay the offenses of a sex offender by attacking his victims probably has some shared interests with the sex offender.

What you routinely do is make the dumbest insinuations about people's sexual proclivities based on them merely pushing back on unsupported claims. It's Twitter level nonsense. See page 7 for your responses to the slightest pushback and demand for evidence.

I on the other hand are telling you consider the generous payouts from Epstein-related compensation funds and proven track record of lies and confabulations of some accusers uncovered in many legal battles over the past decade and a half. That's my basis for my doubt and going on offense against claims made by conspiracy theorists.

 

[dirtywick]

i’ve asked several times for the evidence of this track record of lies from epstein’s accusers, it’s yet to be provided

 

[johnny karate]

What you routinely do is make the dumbest insinuations about people's sexual proclivities based on them merely pushing back on unsupported claims. It's Twitter level nonsense. See page 7 for your responses to the slightest pushback and demand for evidence.

I on the other hand are telling you consider the generous payouts from Epstein-related compensation funds and proven track record of lies and confabulations of some accusers uncovered in many legal battles over the past decade and a half. That's my basis for my doubt and going on offense against claims made by conspiracy theorists.

Congrats to you on all your hard work. Sex offenders everywhere thank you for your service.

 

[dirtywick]

I think Whitehouse got that anecdote from Michael Wolff, which certainly is potentially embarrassing for Donald Trump but is it just embarrassing or illegal? Who knows.

the thing about the embarrassing angle is that he’s already publicly known to appear many times in the epstein files. if it was for completely innocent reasons it would be exonerating to release them, and yet he and his admin constantly goes to extreme lengths to stop any progress on releasing any information. so it doesn’t make sense

 

[Venom]

Congrats to you on all your hard work. Sex offenders everywhere thank you for your service.

Typical. You'll never take responsibility.

 

[Venom]

the thing about the embarrassing angle is that he’s already publicly known to appear many times in the epstein files. if it was for completely innocent reasons it would be exonerating to release them, and yet he and his admin constantly goes to extreme lengths to stop any progress on releasing any information. so it doesn’t make sense

Everyone by now knows they were friends. I mean he didn't have to lie about the birthday card either, but it seems to be a habit of Trump to lie about relatively small things anyway. Like those girls he was allegedly pictured with. Was Michael Wolff telling the truth? If he was he didn't say they were underage, though the ambiguity might be enough to hurt Trump.

i’ve asked several times for the evidence of this track record of lies from epstein’s accusers, it’s yet to be provided

I gave you a summary. There are links and references to their cases and to articles. If you still give them the benefit of the doubt I'll have to write an essay for you.

 

[dirtywick]

Everyone by now knows they were friends. I mean he didn't have to lie about the birthday card either, but it seems to be a habit of Trump to lie about relatively small things anyway. Like those girls he was allegedly pictured with. Was Michael Wolff telling the truth? If he was he didn't say they were underage, though the ambiguity might be enough to hurt Trump.

he also lies to protect himself. and this goes way beyond lying, they’re delaying votes in congress

I gave you a summary. There are links and references to their cases and to articles. If you still give them the benefit of the doubt I'll have to write an essay for you.

i recall a link to a few lines from a deposition, and you said you’d provide more or start your own thread. if there was something else i missed it.

 

[The Great Zaganza]

Hundreds if not thousands of suspicious transactions of Epstein accounts have been flagged to the FEC and DOJ, and nothing was done.
This is unprecedented.

Epstein was clearly protected somehow.

 

[Dabop]

the thing about the embarrassing angle is that he’s already publicly known to appear many times in the epstein files. if it was for completely innocent reasons it would be exonerating to release them, and yet he and his admin constantly goes to extreme lengths to stop any progress on releasing any information. so it doesn’t make sense

Well it 'does'....
IF releasing that information showed that 'Individual 1' wasn't just there because the music was good at Epsteins parties...

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

... As for Ghislaine Maxwell I'm not sold on the case against her. Based on the weak evidence at trial, I think her getting 20 years was a disgrace. There's more evidence against Sarah Kellen, Nadia Marcinkova, any of the other co-conspirators listed on the non-prosecution agreement, even against Virginia Roberts and Haley Robson, two older teens who are confirmed to have profited off of Epstein's scheme. None of these people were ever prosecuted. They were protected by the NPA as part of Epstein's plea agreement.

OMG have you not been paying attention? Maxwell was Epstein's partner in crime. The evidence is dripping from every surface the two touched.

Maxwell's defense tried to argue she was protected under it as well. And it was their main argument on appeal, because they probably thought that was the best argument to get higher court to overturn the conviction, ...

Keep in mind Maxwell was convicted and sentenced. It's not like her case made its way through the appeal system before Trump and his cronies manipulated the criminal system to give her a faux pardon by placing her in a minimal security prison thus insulating Trump from giving her a blatant pardon.

... but regarding the problems with the trial itself, the prosecution could only produce four women, two of whom were disqualified by the judge because nothing they alleged was illegal, three of the four never even mentioned Maxwell in previous interviews with police and the FBI, the one who had mentioned her once previously wasn't very convincing on cross examination, and all of them and their lawyers received undisclosed millions, possibly tens of millions, in compensation after Epstein's death. The material evidence consisted of "suspicious payments" to Maxwell from Epstein (Epstein was known to generously compensate all of his employees), flight logs that showed her on the same flight with some of the alleged victims, or at least name that matched a first name of one of them, but apparently the jurors were swayed by the witness testimony.

If Maxwell had gotten 5-10 years I wouldn't be so uneasy about it. But this idea that it was an open and shut case is pure ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊◊. And the idea that Trump should consider clemency for Maxwell shouldn't be some radical position.

Not many people are claiming the number of victims was less than 4. I have heard a lot of the women who were abused as girls just wanted to move on.

I heard a fascinating interview tonight with a person more intimately knowledgeable about Virginia Giuffre's experience with Epstein, Maxwell, Prince Andrew and others.

From Wiki:

Her second memoir, Nobody's Girl: A Memoir of Surviving Abuse and Fighting for Justice, was co-authored with journalist Amy Wallace beginning in 2021. It is scheduled for posthumous publication by Alfred A. Knopf on 21 October 2025.<a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virginia_Giuffre#cite_note-120"><span>[</span>120<span>]</span></a><a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virginia_Giuffre#cite_note-121"><span>[</span>121<span>]</span></a>

I'll try to expand on this tomorrow.

 

[Venom]

OMG have you not been paying attention? Maxwell was Epstein's partner in crime. The evidence is dripping from every surface the two touched.


Keep in mind Maxwell was convicted and sentenced. It's not like her case made its way through the appeal system before Trump and his cronies manipulated the criminal system to give her a faux pardon by placing her in a minimal security prison thus insulating Trump from giving her a blatant pardon.

Yeah, convicted on the basis of Carolyn Andriano's testimony, basically. An admitted schizophrenic who once was paranoid that sex traffickers were coming after her children. Look, if her mental issues are a product of her extensive past of sexual exploitation, then I sympathize. But there's no evidence Epstein, let alone Maxwell, was the cause of that. And there's no getting around the fact that she was crucial in getting Maxwell locked up for 20 YEARS! Prosecutors apparently wanted 30. Unbelievable.

That one male juror also bragged on TV that he managed to convince the skeptical jurors to convict Maxwell after opening up about his own alleged sexual abuse. That has nothing to do with the case. He was summoned to a hearing to explain himself, and it was ruled that he probably didn't affect the outcome of the trial. Nothing to see here.

Not many people are claiming the number of victims was less than 4. I have heard a lot of the women who were abused as girls just wanted to move on.

Yes, and how many of those abused as girls (minors) even mentioned Maxwell in previous interviews with the police and FBI? They named almost everyone else in that house but her. The only ones who claimed to have met Maxwell back then was Nadia Bjorlin (Jane), and Virginia Roberts, the star accuser, who was conspicuously missing at the trial. The fact that Annie Farmer and Anouska De Georgiou (Kate) were even allowed to testify to pad the prosecution's case is telling.

I heard a fascinating interview tonight with a person more intimately knowledgeable about Virginia Giuffre's experience with Epstein, Maxwell, Prince Andrew and others.

From Wiki:

I'll try to expand on this tomorrow.

From the summary on Wikipedia, it looks to be rehashed stories she told back in the early 2010s she tried to sell to publishers. Hopefully they edited out the parts she had to retract or her own lawyers argued were fiction.

Sharon Churcher, the woman who helped Virginia release her stories on Daily Mail and find her a publisher, was eventually deposed in July 2021 during the lawsuit between Virginia and Alan Dershowitz, though it remains sealed. Now that's a relationship worth looking into.

What did Churcher tell her? What did she tell Brad Edwards!? Did Andrew really have sex with Virginia? I'm skeptical. I'm not going to get into it atm.