Thermal
August Member
But if she has no proof, it's just an accusation. Whether or not the rumored videos exist and are in her lawyers custody in the event she turns up dead is still a wild card.
Merged why the release of names associated with Epstein mean little to absolutely nothing.
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acbytesla
Penultimate Amazing
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That's a continued speculation of what else is out there. I agree with you if the bomb hasn't entirely exploded.
Venom
Philosopher
Jean-Luc Brunel - Wikipedia
en.m.wikipedia.org
A close Epstein, with a history of decades of sex trafficking through a model agency, and raping very young women also died in prison, in 2022.
I wouldn't be surprised if Maxwell just keeps her mouth shut, knowing that she wouldn't live long otherwise.
Wait are you suggesting assassins are going around murdering Epstein associates?
Are we still doing this.
The Great Zaganza
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Actually, yes.
There is so, so much that hasn't been investigated, like the time when Epstein, without any qualifications, got a job at a fancy girl's school; and not long after a top job at an investment firm
It should be easy to find people who knew him then, and it should be easy to see what investment transactions he did.
But all we know is that super rich people suddenly started to give him extremely cushy jobs and tons of money; in particular people in the modeling industry, like Les Wexner. Maxwell was the key in a huge pyramid scheme of getting schoolgirls to do massages for old rich people, and bring in their friends to do the same. Maxwell told girl's that they could model for Victoria's secret or Trump's modeling agency.
If every girl brought in on average only one or two more, they had an infinite supply. And if only every one in ten was willing to do some sexual acts, you have a child prostitute ring of hundreds or more.
And Trump was actively bringing in girls from Eastern Europe with his Agency, none of which have actually modeled for anything as far as we know - what happened to them? There should be some work visa paperwork.
The bank statements could tell us exactly how often and how much cash Epstein took to pay the girls, and that would tell us the scope and duration.
Remember that these payments were flagged but never acted on by investigators.
Epstein had people in power protect him, by claiming that Epstein was working for US or allied Intelligence - and actual US intelligence didn't mind that, true or not.
I think it's wrong and dangerous to play along with Trump's marching orders that it was just something that people did back then to pay underage girls to look pretty at parties for old men and not much more.
RE: suicide. Epstein was the most high profile prisoner in a prison that hadn't had a suicide in decades because of policy changes. And the pathologist didn't think that he could have broken his neck the way it was by trying to hang himself.
I think at the very, very least, murder can not be ruled out, and the level of stonewalling on all things Epstein suggests that some people know a lot, lot more and don't want to tell.
And people in power don't want to investigate: remember, Maxwell said that so many of the people in Epstein's orbit are now in Trump's administration.
Now is the worst time to assume that we have been given the full story, as everyone with the power to lie to us and can do a cover up has an incentive to do so.
I am sure we will learn a lot more about what the FBI found out and wasn't allowed to tell or follow up on. But the evidence might well be destroyed by then.
There is so, so much that hasn't been investigated, like the time when Epstein, without any qualifications, got a job at a fancy girl's school; and not long after a top job at an investment firm
It should be easy to find people who knew him then, and it should be easy to see what investment transactions he did.
But all we know is that super rich people suddenly started to give him extremely cushy jobs and tons of money; in particular people in the modeling industry, like Les Wexner. Maxwell was the key in a huge pyramid scheme of getting schoolgirls to do massages for old rich people, and bring in their friends to do the same. Maxwell told girl's that they could model for Victoria's secret or Trump's modeling agency.
If every girl brought in on average only one or two more, they had an infinite supply. And if only every one in ten was willing to do some sexual acts, you have a child prostitute ring of hundreds or more.
And Trump was actively bringing in girls from Eastern Europe with his Agency, none of which have actually modeled for anything as far as we know - what happened to them? There should be some work visa paperwork.
The bank statements could tell us exactly how often and how much cash Epstein took to pay the girls, and that would tell us the scope and duration.
Remember that these payments were flagged but never acted on by investigators.
Epstein had people in power protect him, by claiming that Epstein was working for US or allied Intelligence - and actual US intelligence didn't mind that, true or not.
I think it's wrong and dangerous to play along with Trump's marching orders that it was just something that people did back then to pay underage girls to look pretty at parties for old men and not much more.
RE: suicide. Epstein was the most high profile prisoner in a prison that hadn't had a suicide in decades because of policy changes. And the pathologist didn't think that he could have broken his neck the way it was by trying to hang himself.
I think at the very, very least, murder can not be ruled out, and the level of stonewalling on all things Epstein suggests that some people know a lot, lot more and don't want to tell.
And people in power don't want to investigate: remember, Maxwell said that so many of the people in Epstein's orbit are now in Trump's administration.
Now is the worst time to assume that we have been given the full story, as everyone with the power to lie to us and can do a cover up has an incentive to do so.
I am sure we will learn a lot more about what the FBI found out and wasn't allowed to tell or follow up on. But the evidence might well be destroyed by then.
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Venom
Philosopher
We don't have the full story but few people are even trying to look into the information already publicly available. There may not be that much left to investigate.
First off, no the medical examiner did not rule that Epstein couldn't have broken his hyoid bone. She ruled it a suicide, which of course conspiracy theorists didn't want to hear, because they fully bought into the QAnon narrative. The "second opinion" for them was celebrity pathologist Michael Baden widely ridiculed for his knee jerk contrarian takes speaking on various cases, even then he claimed it couldn't be determined either way. Consider Epstein was quite older than the average suicide victim and breaking those particular neck bones from a hanging was uncommon but not unheard of.
Ghislaine Maxwell also said the entire narrative around this Epstein thing is controlled by a handful of people, and that's true. Nobody said anything about trafficking rings and blackmail until Virginia Roberts came onto the scene and was boosted by some very irresponsible journalists and opportunistic lawyers. She's since been badly discredited in discovery in various civil cases: Doe v. United States (2008), Giuffre v. Maxwell, and Giuffre v. Dershowitz. No wonder she wasn't called as a witness in Maxwell's trial.
The entire underage sex narrative comes from a period of Epstein's life in the late 1990s, early 2000s mostly in Palm Beach involving local high school girls and young women who were invited to massage him, with varying levels of sexualization, for money or career advancement. All of the suspects other than Epstein in that case were personal assistants, other employees, locally recruited women, and their friends who helped transport these girls. There was no concept at the time to prosecutors of any kind of "child sex trafficking ring" involving prominent people, nor was there any allegation of anyone other than Epstein's very formidable legal team getting him that plea deal. These ideas came much later after Virginia's conspiracy theories became widely disseminated.
He also had legitimate female employees who worked at his properties and followed him around or served as "background decoration" as Michael Wolff puts it. I think this is where questions about where he got such women and the businesses of Jean Luc Brunel and Trump etc. are relevant. But of the names I've seen none of these women were like high schoolers or anything. Is that "trafficking"? That's a stretch to me. Young women going into modelling, older men offering them opportunities, they end up in the U.S. They were high status, lived the high life, got decent jobs, etc.
The Great Zaganza
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What happened to the footage from all the Epstein properties that had cameras everywhere? Do we even know if they still exist? And if so, who has them?
The FBI didn't spend thousands and thousands of man-hours going over no material.
No, very obviously, there is a lot more information out there that is not publicly available or even talked about.
The FBI didn't spend thousands and thousands of man-hours going over no material.
No, very obviously, there is a lot more information out there that is not publicly available or even talked about.
dirtywick
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Pam Bondi dodges questions on Jeffrey Epstein in combative hearing
Attorney General Pam Bondi refused to answer questions about Jeffrey Epstein during a Senate Judiciary Committee hearing Tuesday, instead attacking Democratic senators who asked her about it. Bondi raised her voice as she blasted the lawmakers for their queries.
and this is what pam bondi refuses to talk to congress about?
Helen
Implicitly explicit
And why Epstein was convicted of procuring a child for prostitution, was facing dozens of charges of sex trafficking children, and why Ghislaine Maxwell was convicted of sex trafficking children.
Venom
Philosopher
There was a time local police installed cameras in Epstein’s house in Palm Beach because he was complaining about his stuff getting stolen. The thief was his butler Juan Alessi. There's no real evidence of "cameras recording people" in compromising situations.
Another employee Alfredo Rodriguez testified he saw intimate photos of young women on computers, and indeed computers and other electronic materials were confiscated from Epstein’s properties. That might be some of what Pam Bondi called “child pornography” when asked why the remaining files weren’t being made public after that July 5 FBI memo.
It was part of the plea deal. He had to agree to an additional state charge of procuring a minor, if I recall, a 17 year old who was nearly 18. The original charge was a regular prostitution charge, meaning she was legal in Florida. I mean it’s obvious the charges didn’t reflect all of Epstein’s conduct, and local police and at least one federal prosecutor didn’t like the result at all, but that ignores the fight Epstein’s defense team put up and the fact that most federal prosecutors were just as nervous about a trial as the state attorney because of weak evidence. Epstein’s team didn’t want to risk a trial either.
So he eventually pled guilty, agreed to serve 18 months in jail, register as a sex offender, and settle all civil cases against him from government approved victims.
Look I’m not saying the deal wasn’t lenient, but having to settle all those claims was a pain in the ass for him (over 30 women eligible) and he had to be registered as a sex offender for life, which he vehemently opposed when it was suggested as part of the deal (Florida probably wouldn’t have required him to serve any jail time, much less register). So the federal government serving as a backstop for the state case compelled Epstein to sign the plea deal and face punishment he might have otherwise avoided.
Only after Trump became president and the MeToo movement was at its peak did people revisit the case and think it was such a monstrous deal. Julie K. Brown, the journalist who broke the story, really misrepresented what happened.
As for Ghislaine Maxwell I'm not sold on the case against her. Based on the weak evidence at trial, I think her getting 20 years was a disgrace. There's more evidence against Sarah Kellen, Nadia Marcinkova, any of the other co-conspirators listed on the non-prosecution agreement, even against Virginia Roberts and Haley Robson, two older teens who are confirmed to have profited off of Epstein's scheme. None of these people were ever prosecuted. They were protected by the NPA as part of Epstein's plea agreement.
Maxwell's defense tried to argue she was protected under it as well. And it was their main argument on appeal, because they probably thought that was the best argument to get higher court to overturn the conviction, but regarding the problems with the trial itself, the prosecution could only produce four women, two of whom were disqualified by the judge because nothing they alleged was illegal, three of the four never even mentioned Maxwell in previous interviews with police and the FBI, the one who had mentioned her once previously wasn't very convincing on cross examination, and all of them and their lawyers received undisclosed millions, possibly tens of millions, in compensation after Epstein's death. The material evidence consisted of "suspicious payments" to Maxwell from Epstein (Epstein was known to generously compensate all of his employees), flight logs that showed her on the same flight with some of the alleged victims, or at least name that matched a first name of one of them, but apparently the jurors were swayed by the witness testimony.
If Maxwell had gotten 5-10 years I wouldn't be so uneasy about it. But this idea that it was an open and shut case is pure ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊◊. And the idea that Trump should consider clemency for Maxwell shouldn't be some radical position.
Thermal
August Member
There were also video recording devices (not installed by police) in his Manhattan property, including bathrooms and bedrooms. No one was stealing his toilet paper, man.
Venom
Philosopher
Pam Bondi dodges questions on Jeffrey Epstein in combative hearing
Attorney General Pam Bondi refused to answer questions about Jeffrey Epstein during a Senate Judiciary Committee hearing Tuesday, instead attacking Democratic senators who asked her about it. Bondi raised her voice as she blasted the lawmakers for their queries.www.yahoo.com
and this is what pam bondi refuses to talk to congress about?
I think Whitehouse got that anecdote from Michael Wolff, which certainly is potentially embarrassing for Donald Trump but is it just embarrassing or illegal? Who knows.
Helen
Implicitly explicit
The plea deal saved him from facing carges of abusing a 14-year old girl, and instead plead guilty to procuring a 17-year old for prostitution. Iirc. You may not be sold on any of the arguments, just as you aren't sold on the many stories of the womrn themselves. That doesn't change the facts.
Venom
Philosopher
IN the bathrooms or on the floor where his bathroom was in that mansion?
Venom
Philosopher
I don't have as much of a problem with women who blame Epstein himself for everything, though it's worth examining their actual relationship with him rather than taking them at face value. Would you disagree that his female employees and those Palm Beach high schoolers had different experiences?
I'm against propagating the claims of opportunists who were trying to drag all of his associates into it. I'm against the QAnon narrative because it has made a lot of questionable women and their lawyers very rich and there is almost no pushback against their claims.
Helen
Implicitly explicit
Venom, you think you are reading about girls in their late teens, choosing to massage/escort rich older men, becoming models, having glitzy careers, enjoying glamorous lifestyles. A sort of win-win situation for everyone. I hope you really believe that it's true.
I do not think reality works like that. I do not think young girls work like that.
I see vulnerable teen girls, easily impressed, being groomed, becoming dependent on their groomers, who are in a position of power. I see them being used and abused sexually, being traumatised and scarred for life. I see them learning to think that it is what they deserve. All they deserve. Every story i have heard from them sounds like every other story i have heard from others who have been through similar things.
I do not think reality works like that. I do not think young girls work like that.
I see vulnerable teen girls, easily impressed, being groomed, becoming dependent on their groomers, who are in a position of power. I see them being used and abused sexually, being traumatised and scarred for life. I see them learning to think that it is what they deserve. All they deserve. Every story i have heard from them sounds like every other story i have heard from others who have been through similar things.
Helen
Implicitly explicit
Different girls had different experiences, of course; not all of them would have been equally vulnerable, equally easy to groom. Groomers are good at picking the groomable ones.
Venom
Philosopher
Now grooming I think is a very nebulous concept, highly overstated today. I think Epstein was a groomer. But only in certain respects with certain women.
I don't buy that every young woman he ever came into contact with, such as his employees and models, girlfriends, associates, etc was a victim of abuse and very few considered themselves victims until the Epstein compensation fund and various class action suits opened up. I don't think it's offensive to point this out. Money is a big motivator to stretch the truth, for legitimate interests too.
johnny karate
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I don't think it's offensive to look for ways to downplay the depravity of a predator and child sex offender remains a deeply weird hill to die on.
Helen
Implicitly explicit
Power imbalance is a thing, and between Epstein/Maxwell and the girls they abused, there was no balance at all. Grooming is sometimes very subtle, and very difficult to see if you are inexperienced, and just like domestic abuse, the process is insidious, and debilitating to the victim, who will be taught to think that no one else will want them, or care for them.
Or, for that matter, believe them.
Maybe he didn't abuse everyone. That does not mean that he didn't abuse anyone.
Or, for that matter, believe them.
Maybe he didn't abuse everyone. That does not mean that he didn't abuse anyone.
Helen
Implicitly explicit
Oh yes, the money; coming forward when you have an intensiven, and when others will come forward as well, does not make you a liar or a golddigger. They had certainly worked har for it, and I do not begrufge them a little comprnsation. They will not get back what was stolen from them. And I personally do not think that any money in the world could make what they have been through worth it.