What do you do when your friends believe woo?

[shroomigator]

A friend recently asked me to look at some papers she had and give her my opinion. What followed was a trip down a rabbit hole of sovereign citizen claptrap that I had to decipher because my friend was about to spend a great deal of money on what they were offering.

This is the website: //actnowpma.info/PrivateMemberAssoc.html

In a nutshell, this guy has been marketing Private Membership Associations as a way for alternative health care practitioners to practice their trade without interference from licensing boards or the FDA.

He charges $6000 to draw up papers for a P.M.A. that he claims will, and I quote, be able to "Enjoy a general immunity to public laws, regulations and internal rules of local, state and federal administrative agencies (including, but not limited to, the FDA) that protect the public health."

So I give her my opinion, which is that the guy is a con artist.

Then she tells me that she isn't the only one, that others among our friends had already bought in.

So far I know of two friends who run alternative health businesses who paid this guy to draw up papers for them, and they are mad as hell with me right now because they love this guy and I say he's scamming them.

I don't feel like I can just sit idly by while some scammer rips off my friends. We've had clashes before, because my acceptance of and advocacy for vaccines and "western medicine" aka Science Based Medicine.

So how do I deal with friends who believe in woo without biting my tongue every time one of them mentions something I disagree with? These are people I like and respect. I value their friendship, but I don't want to sacrifice my ethics or commitment to the truth just to remain friends.

 

[marplots]

These are people I like and respect. I value their friendship, but I don't want to sacrifice my ethics or commitment to the truth just to remain friends.

What an odd collision of evaluations that presents.

I'd approach it like I would if someone took on a hobby I didn't care for. Interested because they were interested, but not a participant.

They are getting something of value for their money - the adventure, the association with someone they admire, the sheer pleasure of playing "outside the lines."

It wouldn't bother me a bit. Friends participate in friends' lives, but do not direct them. You can be the documentarian here, the dispassionate observer.

ETA: Pay a couple bucks and run a criminal history check on the guy. Might be interesting.

 

[paulhutch]

If your freinds read this on the homepage ...

Notice

The Director of the PMA does not have a Juris Doctor; is not now nor has ever been a member of any local, state, federal or foreign BAR Association; and, is not an attorney.

The PMA Does Not Offer
To represent anyone or any person in any court.
To sign any pleading for or on behalf of anyone or any person that will be filed in any court.
To give anyone or any person “legal advice."​

and still went ahead I think there's little you can do to help them.

 

[Joey McGee]

Follow the science-based advice in this booklet to a t and you will have a far higher chance of getting to them.

http://www.skepticalscience.com/Debunking-Handbook-now-freely-available-download.html

The Handbook explores the surprising fact that debunking myths can sometimes reinforce the myth in peoples' minds. Communicators need to be aware of the various backfire effects and how to avoid them, such as:

The Familiarity Backfire Effect
The Overkill Backfire Effect
The Worldview Backfire Effect

It is my personal view that most skeptics have created the backfire effect so many times in their lives that they have formed a personal belief that you can't talk people out of beliefs unless they are ready to be talked out of them. They are self-justifying fools. 90% of the advice you will see when this question is asked is self-serving *********.

 

[shroomigator]

If your freinds read this on the homepage ...


and still went ahead I think there's little you can do to help them.

that's actually a selling point with them...

 

[shroomigator]

ETA: Pay a couple bucks and run a criminal history check on the guy. Might be interesting.

Dude has been convicted of selling fraudulent common law trusts and spent 10 years in prison. They all know about it. He has them convinced he was railroaded, the law is on his side, and all will be set right as soon as his latest case goes to court...

He still sells the trusts, only now he doesn't claim they can shield you from tax liability. Now he focuses on the PMAs, because so many people in the alternative health field lack certification, he sells them on a way they can practice without licenses.

 

[marplots]

I did find something of interest on someone with the same name as the principle - reposted, of all places, on the Stormfront forum:

https://www.stormfront.org/forum/t7875/

If it is the same John Philip Ellis, we have a prison sentence for tax fraud and a laundry list of other financial scams.

(The article actually exists, but I didn't want to pay to get it: https://www.newspapers.com/newspage/134637189/)

This can't be good.
"The jury found Ellis, 49, of Royal Palm Beach, and two associates guilty of conspiring to defraud the Internal Revenue Service by selling "common law" trusts, which they said could shelter money and property from income taxes. Ellis also was convicted of obstructing justice by interfering with a grand jury investigation."

 

[shroomigator]

I did find something of interest on someone with the same name as the principle - reposted, of all places, on the Stormfront forum:


If it is the same John Philip Ellis, we have a prison sentence for tax fraud and a laundry list of other financial scams.

Thanks for finding that. It's the same guy, all right. I doubt it will sway anyone, but it's nice to see

 

[rjh01]

You can say what you think, but do not press home. Then when they find reality or reality hits them give them a shoulder to cry on without saying I told you so.

But what you do depends on what sort of person you are.

 

[catsmate]

Find new friends.

 

[stanfr]

I think the believing in woo thing and this particular con artist are two separate issues. You can state your opinion (given his prior convictions, it's more like an established fact...) that he is a scammer without addressing underlying claims about alt medicine. He's presenting himself as a pseudo-lawyer, not an alt med guru. 6,000 clams to draw up legal papers by a non-attorney ought to be a red flag to anyone, but if it isn't, I don't see the harm in pointing out how crazy it is....

 

[JJM 777]

So how do I deal with friends who believe in woo without biting my tongue every time one of them mentions something I disagree with?

Your friends being alternative medicine practitioners would be the "woo" part. But they could as well be simply religious, or even religious professionals. It should be possible to maintain an awareness that you don't believe in the same religion / alternative medicine / whatever, without discussing the differences every day, or even every month. Religious people tend to be aware that most people failing to believe in their doctrines is the default expectation. I am not sure about alternative health practitioners, really it is the feedback from average people that will define their default experience, and thus their default expectations.

If your freinds read this on the homepage ...

> The Director of the PMA does not have a Juris Doctor;
> is not now nor has ever been a member of any local, state,
> federal or foreign BAR Association; and, is not an attorney.
>
> The PMA Does Not Offer To represent anyone or any person in any court.
> To sign any pleading for or on behalf of anyone or any person that will be filed in any court.
> To give anyone or any person “legal advice."

and still went ahead I think there's little you can do to help them.

This is not "woo". This is simply a gross fraud.

 

[shroomigator]

The woo and the fraud are more closely intertwined than you would think... all of the anti-vaccine and anti-science messages are rooted in distrust for the government and our institutions. CDC says vaccines are safe? Well they lie to you and they once gave syphilis to black people on purpose. Independent testing labs say GMOs are harmless? Well are they REALLY independent, or does Big Whatever control them?

And if you don't believe what they believe, if you question anything, you have to defend against accusations of "shilling" or being undercover in some capacity.

Every argument boils down to distrust of the government. This con artist found the perfect marks.

 

[Roger Ramjets]

In a nutshell, this guy has been marketing Private Membership Associations as a way for alternative health care practitioners to practice their trade without interference from licensing boards or the FDA.

A con artist conning other con artists? I wouldn't lose any sleep over it...

These are people I like and respect. I value their friendship, but I don't want to sacrifice my ethics or commitment to the truth just to remain friends.

Then don't. Find some new friends who share your ethics and commitment to the truth.

 

[Sergei Walankov]

Even after Mission: Impossible II, my girlfriend continued to believe in Woo. "But there's so much more artistry than you normally get from Hollywood action films," she used to say.

 

[shroomigator]

He responds!
[edit] This response is missing its weblinks, so it may seem nonsensical. He didn't respond to my direct questions, he just addressed the links I sent my friend that show the 8th circuit denied this argument

My reply:

Facts:
1.
Case No.: 15-3786, UNITED STATES OF AMERICA v. Robert Larry Lytle, is currently before the UNITED STATES COURT OF APPEALS for the EIGHTH CIRCUIT, in St. Louis, Missouri. The court appeal from is UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT for the DISTRICT OF SOUTH DAKOTA, located in Rapid City, South Dakota. Appellant’s initial brief was timely filed on the 27th day of January, 2016; docketed on the 3rd day of February; plaintiff’s response brief is due 30 days from that date or around the 4th day of March, 2016 and Larry’s reply brief is due 10 days after that is filed (around March 15, 2016).

So, fact number one is that this case is far from “settled law” in the Eighth Circuit or any other federal circuit court.

The only issue raised by the plaintiff is the FDA’s constitutionally unsupported claim that the FDA has regulatory authority over any medical device manufacturer that commercially distributes devices intended for human use to the public using the channels of interstate commerce that are adulterated or misbranded (improperly labeled or packaged) and that have not been approved or cleared by the FDA.

The question presented in Larry’s appeal brief is whether the permanent injunction entered in October, 2015 (the preliminary injunction having been overturned previously) lawfully (constitutionally) can prevent Larry from also privately distributing low-power laser devices to members of a private membership association without such devices having any approval or clearance from the FDA for such private sales.

The case has potential wide-ranging effects on issues of peoples’ rights regarding freedom of association, speech and the press at the minimum regarding the differences between the FDA’s legal authority over public corporations and other public entities and people acting in a private character and capacity and any alleged “constitutional authority” the FDA seeks to exercise over people acting privately.
Larry (and I) are prepared to take this to the U.S. Supreme Court and to other courts if necessary.
2.
[weblink] is a link to a law firm’s opinion about the Lytle case that is old news, off point and irrelevant.
3.
Same as No. 2.
4.
Credential Watch comments on the Pastoral Medical Association PMA. A PMA apparently set up by Karl Dahlstrom/ProAdvocate Group in Texas. The Dahlstrom PMA, and this one in particular, I believe have numerous legal defects in their contract and, I believe cannot provide the protection the people purchasing a PMA from them expect.

Its claims about Larry are incorrect. Larry, in fact, lost his dental license for pioneering a new (at the time) dental procedure that is now taught as an advanced procedure in the most prestigious dental schools in the United States of America. He was ahead of his time.
He was one of the first practitioners of laser dentistry. He saw the advantages that lasers had in healing and started 2035 Inc., a Nevada Corporation, to market his invention, the QLasers. He has distributed over 20,000 QLasers devices over a 17 year period of time (much of the time under one of two corporations and one partnership) without one death, one permanent or even temporary injury, one complaint alleging that the device caused any discomfort, pain, or suffering to any human or caused any damage to any pet, domestic animal, livestock or wild beast.

The temporary injunction was overturned and remanded to the District Court in 2015; it was subsequently dismissed. The permanent injunction (entered on the 13th day of October, 2015 is now on appeal).

Stopping Larry from privately distributing QLasers is an outrageous and unconstitutional exercise of authority by the FDA and the plaintiff, UNITED STATES OF AMERICA.

The rest of the people cited either failed to defend their PMA at all or defended it improperly.

Some examples are:

Daniel Smith apparently got his PMA from ProAdvocate Group (discussed above).

The problems with Lynette Blake are legion and actually have nothing to do with a PMA.

Chris McCutcheon had previously been a licensed chiropractor and there is no evidence that at any time he addressed the licensing in his case.

Garritt Mason had been a licensed chiropractor and there is no evidence that he did anything about his license prior to setting up a PMA. Furthermore, he defended himself and procedurally lost the case.

However, see the second to the final paragraph where it begins: “In 2015, the Kentucky Board of Chiropractic Examiners decided that Pastoral Medical Association services are "pastoral" and that Kentucky chiropractors were "free to join, advertise, and counsel under the Pastoral Medical Association so long as there is a separation date between the PMA services and the chiropractic services being rendered. PMA services are pastoral in nature…”

 

[shroomigator]

So they're all urging me to call him up, so he can explain it to me himself... I've resisted this so far because I'm not a lawyer and I couldn't trust myself to catch all the gobbledygook if it was coming at me at speech speeds... besides, I know the guy's a con artist, I'm just humoring my friends... at this point it's clear to me that I should have minded my own business, told my friend what I thought of the papers and left it at that... it was at her insistence that I went down the rabbit hole and I did not find the experience to be at all pleasant. big life lesson here guys

 

[JJM 777]

The fact that your opinion was asked, is a positive indicator that your friend has at least some healthy suspicions. May the suspicions win the battle for truth or not.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Find new friends.

Not always an option. My son's significant other's father believes Bigfoot exists. I've raised a rational thinker and he knows how I view such beliefs. He agrees and I assume his girlfriend does as well.

She accepts my flaws, my son accepts her parent's flaws.

My son warned me ahead of time. We've now spent two Thanksgivings together. They're absolutely wonderful people. The subject came up. I politely said I don't see the evidence, and that's where it ended.

My brother believes in God and the Sharper Image Ionic Breeze. I just don't bring either one up.

 

[The Atheist]

So how do I deal with friends who believe in woo without biting my tongue every time one of them mentions something I disagree with? These are people I like and respect. I value their friendship, but I don't want to sacrifice my ethics or commitment to the truth just to remain friends.

First off, welcome along!

Neat name, too - if I'm reading it right. We had a good discussion a few weeks back about psilocybin.

Anyway, as to the topic, just this:

Find new friends.

If your friends trust a con-artist more than a friend who is trying to help them, they aren't worth the time and will surely fail you if you ever need help.

Some people are beyond redemption.