Fat Logic

[GlennB]

Only in the sense that there are other factors affecting energy efficiency depending on the subject.

No one in this thread has argued otherwise.

But, since it seems to need repeating: You cannot gain weight if you consume less calories than you manage to metabolize, regardless of the factors influencing your metabolism.

Why does it seem that way to you? Has anyone in this thread argued, or even implied, that you can do so?

No, but it's often - correctly - said that a calorie surplus has different effects on different people. Some seem to use that as denying Skeptical Greg's point. Basically, some folks are looking for a loophole to blame weight gain on uncontrollable external circumstances.

 

[Prometheus]

No, but it's often - correctly - said that a calorie surplus has different effects on different people. Some seem to use that as denying Skeptical Greg's point. Basically, some folks are looking for a loophole to blame weight gain on uncontrollable external circumstances.

Are any of those people present in this thread? I'm asking because Skeptical Greg's oft repeated point seems to me to be about as helpful as would be a biology textbook which consisted of the line, "Organisms grow because they eat".

 

[Emily's Cat]

Why do you feel switching to the absurd is a valid argument?

There's nothing absurd in pointing out that your approach is absurd. If it were truly as simple as calories in, calories out... then there'd be nothing at all absurd about my statement.

 

[Emily's Cat]

No, but it's often - correctly - said that a calorie surplus has different effects on different people. Some seem to use that as denying Skeptical Greg's point. Basically, some folks are looking for a loophole to blame weight gain on uncontrollable external circumstances.

I do not believe that anyone is doing that.

I do, however, believe that we are saying that the overly simplistic approach of CICO, with no consideration of any other factor is incomplete, misleading, thoughtless, and inconsiderate.

Consider: It's easy to hit a baseball. Just swing and hit. That's all there is to it. Anyone who says that it's not as simple as "hit the ball" is just trying to blame their poor batting average on uncontrollable external circumstances.

**subtext: If you're unable to hit a baseball, then obviously you're just weak willed and undeserving of any sort of sympathy. If you can't hit the ball with no more knowledge or advice than "hit the ball", then there's something wrong with you, and you're a lesser person**

 

[ThunderChunky]

There's nothing absurd in pointing out that your approach is absurd. If it were truly as simple as calories in, calories out... then there'd be nothing at all absurd about my statement.

Ignoring basic nutritional requirements to (try to) make a point is absurd.

 

[Tsukasa Buddha]

If your position is that none of the other influences, apart from CICO, are significantly explanatory factors, wouldn't that be arguing that CICO is the sole factor that determines weight loss/gain?

I am not surprised you are confused when you ignore what the opposition posts (see #392) and carry on with strawmen.

 

[Tsukasa Buddha]

I do not believe that anyone is doing that.

I do, however, believe that we are saying that the overly simplistic approach of CICO, with no consideration of any other factor is incomplete, misleading, thoughtless, and inconsiderate.

Consider: It's easy to hit a baseball. Just swing and hit. That's all there is to it. Anyone who says that it's not as simple as "hit the ball" is just trying to blame their poor batting average on uncontrollable external circumstances.

**subtext: If you're unable to hit a baseball, then obviously you're just weak willed and undeserving of any sort of sympathy. If you can't hit the ball with no more knowledge or advice than "hit the ball", then there's something wrong with you, and you're a lesser person**

Firstly, to play on your analogy, we have people saying "I genetically can't hit the ball. My bat swinging is just broken." They are denying physics, AKA CICO.

Second, if we compare to training baseball, I see no one in the thread saying that people don't need to train (mentally) for eating less, or that there is something wrong with someone who struggles or that they are a lesser person. You are fighting fat activist strawmen.

 

[Skeptical Greg]

If your position is that none of the other influences, apart from CICO, are significantly explanatory factors, wouldn't that be arguing that CICO is the sole factor that determines weight loss/gain?

No one is arguing that, but some people seem to have a fixation on the other influences, while refusing to concede that CICO is the foundation of weight maintenance for an overwhelming majority of the population.

Do you have evidence that it is not?

 

[Roboramma]

If your position is that none of the other influences, apart from CICO, are significantly explanatory factors, wouldn't that be arguing that CICO is the sole factor that determines weight loss/gain?

Those other things influence CICO, perhaps in the form of influencing how many calories are made metabolically available (calories in) or affecting appetite (also calories in), or perhaps in the form of influencing how mood (affecting desire to exercise, and thus calories out) or basal metabolism (also calories out).

It comes down to calories in vs. calories out, but that doesn't mean that CICO is simple. Reducing the in side of the equation can also have an affect on the out side. Changes in diet that don't affect total caloric intake may affect CICO in some other way, and thus affect weight gain or loss.

And, contrary to the above, obviously health is about more than just weight, and thus there are important factors for health that go outside of the paradigm of calories in - calories out.

 

[marplots]

Those other things influence CICO, perhaps in the form of influencing how many calories are made metabolically available (calories in) or affecting appetite (also calories in), or perhaps in the form of influencing how mood (affecting desire to exercise, and thus calories out) or basal metabolism (also calories out).

It comes down to calories in vs. calories out, but that doesn't mean that CICO is simple. Reducing the in side of the equation can also have an affect on the out side. Changes in diet that don't affect total caloric intake may affect CICO in some other way, and thus affect weight gain or loss.

And, contrary to the above, obviously health is about more than just weight, and thus there are important factors for health that go outside of the paradigm of calories in - calories out.

A very nicely balanced summary.

 

[casebro]

I've got some logic for discussion-

What if both extreme hypertension and obesity are caused by pinched nerves? Vagus in particular?

There seems to be some linkage of a positive feedback loop of hypertension caused by an artery pulsing against the vagus nerve. The more pulse, the more interference in the nerve signal, the brain raises blood pressure, with pulses harder against the nerve, rinse, repeat until a vessel explodes in your head. The fix is called "arterial decompression microvascular surgery". Also some cases of extreme hypertension are relieved incidental to neck disc surgery.

But doesn't the same nerve go to the stomach, and sense things like fullness? Irritate the nerve, get less signal of fullness? The vagus nerve enters the abdomen through the same window in the diaphragm as the esophagus- eat to much, dampen the signal that you are full?

Yes, it's still CICO, but appetite control is the key to less CI, the signals have to work right for that.

Side note- There is a group of symptoms tied to heart disease risk. Four items, called Syndrome X- one item for each leg of the X. Obesity, hypertension, diabetes, and hypercholesterolemia. I think I got that right. The vagusd nerve goes to the stomach (obesity) the heart (hypertension) the liver (cholesterol & diabetes) the pancreas ( diabetes). hmmmmm.

 

[cosmicaug]

I've got some logic for discussion-

What if both extreme hypertension and obesity are caused by pinched nerves? Vagus in particular?

It depends on what you mean by that 'what if'. If you are asking if it's possible, I have no idea if it is. I suppose weirder physiological mechanisms have been demonstrated. I certainly would be open to believing it might be possible (though I'd certainly like to see some references). Indeed, some approaches to treating obesity are based on manipulating the vagus nerve (though you should not take that to mean that this implies that vagal dysfunction causes obesity).

If, on the other hand, you are asking if that is significant, from a perspective of public health, then the answer would almost certainly have to be no. It's like those people who like to bring up Prader–Willi syndrome^WP: sure, it predisposes one to obesity (IIRC, their appetite regulation is broken) but most obese people do not have Prader–Willi syndrome. It's pretty clear that if such a pathophysiology of hypertension existed it is very likely not applicable to the vast majority of cases of obesity (or even hypertension) and it would take massive amounts of evidence to show otherwise.

Side note- There is a group of symptoms tied to heart disease risk. Four items, called Syndrome X- one item for each leg of the X. Obesity, hypertension, diabetes, and hypercholesterolemia. I think I got that right. The vagusd nerve goes to the stomach (obesity) the heart (hypertension) the liver (cholesterol & diabetes) the pancreas ( diabetes). hmmmmm.

No, you haven't found the Rosetta stone of metabolic syndrome.

 

[casebro]

...

If, on the other hand, you are asking if that is significant, from a perspective of public health, then the answer would almost certainly have to be no. It's like those people who like to bring up Prader–Willi syndrome^WP: sure, it predisposes one to obesity (IIRC, their appetite regulation is broken) but most obese people do not have Prader–Willi syndrome. It's pretty clear that if such a pathophysiology of hypertension existed it is very likely not applicable to the vast majority of cases of obesity (or even hypertension) and it would take massive amounts of evidence to show otherwise.

88,000 hits <arterial decompression microvascular surgery hypertension> Read some.

You said: ...significant, from a perspective of public health,... it predisposes ONE to obesity... a pathophysiology of hypertension existed it is very likely not applicable to the vast majority of cases of obesity (or even hypertension)....

No to all that, I am only interested in one patient. Casebro. And incidentally my sister, who only has one prong of Syndrome X but her BP also runs over 200.

I have "essential hypertension". That does not mean it is required, it means "we don't give a **** what the cause is, take the damn pills even if them make you pass out."

 

[Skeptical Greg]

What if both extreme hypertension and obesity are caused by pinched nerves? Vagus in particular?

How would this correlate to the extreme rise in obesity in the last ~40 years?

What was going on with the pinched nerves ( or lack of ) back then ?


At the risk of sounding snarky, would sitting on the couch and watching TV increase the risk of getting these pinched nerves?

 

[casebro]

How would this correlate to the extreme rise in obesity in the last ~40 years?

I guess one point I didn't bring up is that obesity may put pressure on the nerve, making for a positive feedback loop. more fat more poressure moire eating more fat....

What was going on with the pinched nerves ( or lack of ) back then ?

Crossing the threshold used to be harder, with the diet and wages of the time? But 40 years ago is only 1975, make it 70 years ago? Doesn't the epidemic go back long time?

At the risk of sounding snarky, would sitting on the couch and watching TV increase the risk of getting these pinched nerves?

Certainly, if the pinch is in the neck. But where ever, Yoga is probaly good for it, and couch potatoes is anti-yoga-ness.

But I'm not thinking absolute cause/effect. Obesity is multi-factorial. Blood pressure even more so. I'm thinks a significant minority, say 10-20%.

Shut up Casebro, take your pills eh?

 

[rustypouch]

I've got some logic for discussion-

What if both extreme hypertension and obesity are caused by pinched nerves? Vagus in particular?

There seems to be some linkage of a positive feedback loop of hypertension caused by an artery pulsing against the vagus nerve. The more pulse, the more interference in the nerve signal, the brain raises blood pressure, with pulses harder against the nerve, rinse, repeat until a vessel explodes in your head. The fix is called "arterial decompression microvascular surgery". Also some cases of extreme hypertension are relieved incidental to neck disc surgery.

But doesn't the same nerve go to the stomach, and sense things like fullness? Irritate the nerve, get less signal of fullness? The vagus nerve enters the abdomen through the same window in the diaphragm as the esophagus- eat to much, dampen the signal that you are full?

Yes, it's still CICO, but appetite control is the key to less CI, the signals have to work right for that.

Side note- There is a group of symptoms tied to heart disease risk. Four items, called Syndrome X- one item for each leg of the X. Obesity, hypertension, diabetes, and hypercholesterolemia. I think I got that right. The vagusd nerve goes to the stomach (obesity) the heart (hypertension) the liver (cholesterol & diabetes) the pancreas ( diabetes). hmmmmm.

What if? And what if there were some way to adjust someone's spine to releive the pinching?

 

[cosmicaug]

88,000 hits <arterial decompression microvascular surgery hypertension> Read some.

You said: ...significant, from a perspective of public health,... it predisposes ONE to obesity... a pathophysiology of hypertension existed it is very likely not applicable to the vast majority of cases of obesity (or even hypertension)....

Yeah, where I wrote about "pathophysiology of hypertension" I meant to write "pathophysiology of obesity". The comments still apply. That it is a thing does not mean that it is applicable to the majority of cases.

I have "essential hypertension". That does not mean it is required, it means "we don't give a **** what the cause is, take the damn pills even if them make you pass out."

It means that all the obvious causes have been ruled out. IOW, they don't really know.

 

[cosmicaug]

I've got some logic for discussion-

What if both extreme hypertension and obesity are caused by pinched nerves? Vagus in particular?

There seems to be some linkage of a positive feedback loop of hypertension caused by an artery pulsing against the vagus nerve. The more pulse, the more interference in the nerve signal, the brain raises blood pressure, with pulses harder against the nerve, rinse, repeat until a vessel explodes in your head. The fix is called "arterial decompression microvascular surgery". Also some cases of extreme hypertension are relieved incidental to neck disc surgery.

But doesn't the same nerve go to the stomach, and sense things like fullness? Irritate the nerve, get less signal of fullness? The vagus nerve enters the abdomen through the same window in the diaphragm as the esophagus- eat to much, dampen the signal that you are full?

Yes, it's still CICO, but appetite control is the key to less CI, the signals have to work right for that.

Side note- There is a group of symptoms tied to heart disease risk. Four items, called Syndrome X- one item for each leg of the X. Obesity, hypertension, diabetes, and hypercholesterolemia. I think I got that right. The vagusd nerve goes to the stomach (obesity) the heart (hypertension) the liver (cholesterol & diabetes) the pancreas ( diabetes). hmmmmm.

What if? And what if there were some way to adjust someone's spine to releive the pinching?

Nice try but I think we are talking about a cranial nerve here so I think not even the phantoms of chiropractic subluxation would be likely to affect it. Then again, good ole Palmer claimed to have cured deafness with a deft spinal adjustment and no spinal nerves are involved in hearing so I suppose it could work here too because of... magic!

 

[cosmicaug]

From Antonis Damianou at Smart Training & Flexible Dieting:

 

[Tsukasa Buddha]

New polling shows serious delusion afoot for adults now as well as children:

As part of the Gallup-Healthways Well-Being Index, Gallup calculates Americans' body mass index scores based on respondents' self-reported height and weight. The obesity rate ticked up to 27.7% in 2014, the highest rate recorded since Gallup and Healthways began tracking it in 2008. Still, Americans' desire to lose weight has not increased.

In addition to being less likely to say they want to lose weight in recent years, fewer Americans say they are making a concerted effort to do this. Less than a quarter of adults (24%) report they are "seriously trying to lose weight." This is the lowest reading since 2002, though it is similar to the 25% to 30% of adults who said they were "seriously" trying from 2003 through 2014.

Linky.

As with children, a feedback loop can be found in the "normalisation" of heavier weights.

The researchers conducted five experiments to see how subjects would react to cues suggesting that obesity was acceptable.

In each instance the subjects displayed a greater intended or actual consumption of unhealthy food and a reduced motivation to engage in a healthier lifestyle, driven by an increased belief that obesity was more socially acceptable.

The study's authors posit that efforts to increase acceptance are resulting in increasing the amount of thought consumers put into their appearance and heightening body anxiety - ironically the opposite of what many of these marketing campaigns are trying to achieve.

Linky.