Transwomen are not Women - Part 15

[smartcooky]

Alternatively, you could just say "man" as you do when filling out government forms.

You're missing the point..... again, and you do this so often, I have to believe you are doing so deliberately. You are playing silly, semantic word games - I am pretty sure no-one here is fooled by your shtick!!.

I DON'T self-identify,
I DON'T have a "perception" of myself as any gender.
When I am naked, and look down between the tops of my legs, I see I have a cock and two balls. It therefore is an observable, biological reality that I am a male. This is a FACT, not some self-perception.
The End.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Holy crap, the Olympics Opening Ceremony.

And that's all I've got to say about that.

 

[Graham2001]

I found this article on the website of the Foundation for Individual Rights & Expression (formerly the Foundation for Individual Rights in Education.) in which a (self-identified) trans individual discusses why they feel the current tactics used by Trans-Activists and their Allies seem to be proving counter productive in the long run.

In recent years, the transgender community has gained a reputation for championing cancel culture. Unfortunately, this is largely true.

In FIRE’s 2024 College Free Speech Rankings, a sample of 454 students who identified as nonbinary overwhelmingly reported support for illiberal protest tactics. (The survey does not have a separate category for female-to-male or male-to-female transitioners.) Almost nine in ten (86%) nonbinary students, compared to 63% of students overall, said that it could be acceptable to shout down a campus speaker. Seventy-three percent of nonbinary students showed some level of tolerance for physically blocking others from attending a speech, while only 45% of students overall said the same. Most shockingly, 53% — more than half! — of nonbinary students did not categorically oppose the use of physical violence to stop a speech. Compare that to 27% of students overall.

https://www.thefire.org/news/im-trans-trans-communitys-illiberalism-putting-our-rights-risk

 

[Elaedith]

The emergency puberty blocker ban introduced by the last UK government is lawful, the High Court has ruled.

Full judgement here.

The judgment seems rather dismissive about attempts to smear Cass and the Cass review, describing its findings as 'powerful scientific evidence'.

 

[smartcooky]

The emergency puberty blocker ban introduced by the last UK government is lawful, the High Court has ruled.

Full judgement here.

The judgment seems rather dismissive about attempts to smear Cass and the Cass review, describing its findings as 'powerful scientific evidence'.

Refreshing to see some members of the judiciary with a better grasp on reality over this issue than most. Puberty blockers are a terrible idea.

When you drill down to the facts, using drugs to prevent a normal, natural part of human development cannot possibly be good for the person taking them, it can only cause harm. If it were not for the current gender ideology that seems to have taken hold in some parts of society, such drugs would probably never have been developed in the first place.

The problem I see here is one of peer pressure and pandering. Gender confusion is a fad, and it will eventually fade into the oblivion that bell bottom trousers, big hair, hipsters, winkle pickers and Brylcreemed hair fell into. The vast majority of kids with gender issues, kids with uncertainty about gender during their formative years, grow out of it to become normal, well adjusted people. Those who do not are generally those with parents who pander to their kids rather then just let them grow up. For those who remain, gender dysphoria should be treated in accordance with what it is... a mental illness.

Who here remembers reading all the scaremongering that banning puberty blockers was going to causes a spike in youth/teen suicides rates? Well that hasn't happened has it? Of course they have only been banned in the UK since the end of May - not long enough to glean any useful statistics, but in the US, gender affirming care has been banned in 25 states and for a lot longer.

https://www.usnews.com/news/best-st...e-and-which-states-have-restricted-it-in-2023

Have we seen a spike in the teen suicide rates in those states since the bans were enacted? Nope, at least, not that I'm aware of.

 

[Matthew Best]

If it were not for the current gender ideology that seems to have taken hold in some parts of society, such drugs would probably never have been developed in the first place.

I don't think this is true. Puberty blockers were developed to treat precocious puberty, not gender dysphoria.

 

[angrysoba]

Refreshing to see some members of the judiciary with a better grasp on reality over this issue than most. Puberty blockers are a terrible idea. When you drill down to the facts, using drugs to prevent a normal, natural part of human development cannot possibly be good for the person taking them, it can only cause harm. If it were not for the current gender ideology that seems to have taken hold in some parts of society, such drugs would probably never have been developed in the first place.
The problem I see here is one of peer pressure and pandering. Gender confusion is a fad, and it will eventually fade into the oblivion that bell bottom trousers, big hair, hipsters, winkle pickers and Brylcreemed hair fell into. The vast majority of kids with gender issues, kids with uncertainty about gender during their formative years, grow out of it to become normal, well adjusted people. Those who do not are generally those with parents who pander to their kids rather then just let them grow up. For those who remain, gender dysphoria should be treated in accordance with what it is... a mental illness.

Who here remembers reading all the scaremongering that banning puberty blockers was going to causes a spike in youth/teen suicides rates? Well that hasn't happened has it? Of course they have only been banned in the UK since the end of May - not long enough to glean any useful statistics, but in the US, gender affirming care has been banned in 25 states and for a lot longer.

https://www.usnews.com/news/best-st...e-and-which-states-have-restricted-it-in-2023

Have we seen a spike in the teen suicide rates in those states since the bans were enacted? Nope, at least, not that I'm aware of.

The drugs were not developed to treat gender dysphoria but were used before that for precocious puberty and apparently a number of other conditions depending on whether for male or female.

Some children go through normal puberty at an early age which is apparently not good for them if they want to reach their maximum height potential, and can be alarming for children going through puberty much earlier than their peers.

There seems to be no problem using them in the short-term, but the long-term use is apparently much less clear.

 

[Elaedith]

The drugs were not developed to treat gender dysphoria but were used before that for precocious puberty and apparently a number of other conditions depending on whether for male or female.

Some children go through normal puberty at an early age which is apparently not good for them if they want to reach their maximum height potential, and can be alarming for children going through puberty much earlier than their peers.

There seems to be no problem using them in the short-term, but the long-term use is apparently much less clear.

I think the risk versus benefits for using them to treat precocious puberty probably needs to be reviewed in light of some recent evidence. However, it is a very different use from blocking puberty that occurs during the normal time frame, followed (in almost every case) by using hormones to induce secondary sexual characteristics of the other sex. There are no systematic long-term follow up studies to show what this does to neurological development.

Meanwhile, I see a lot of activists are using the line 'they are banned for trans kids but not for cis kids, it's discrimination'. This is nonsense; they are banned for treatment of one type of condition but not others. A child with a trans identity who develops precocious puberty can be prescribed them for that.

 

[d4m10n]

When I am naked, and look down between the tops of my legs, I see I have a cock and two balls. It therefore is an observable, biological reality that I am a male. This is a FACT, not some self-perception.

I was not referring to sex (the male/female binary) but rather to the meaning of gender as typically used in 21st century English. You seem to have confusing the former for the latter, which is a common enough mistake.

You think that a drop down that panders to a very vocal group of activists is somehow representative of the views of the vast majority of people?

Having seen that drop-down in multiple websites, I assume it is comprehensible to English-speaking users and presumably useful to the website owners. If you want to argue it is intended solely to placate activists, you remain free to do so.

 

[smartcooky]

I don't think this is true. Puberty blockers were developed to treat precocious puberty, not gender dysphoria.

The drugs were not developed to treat gender dysphoria but were used before that for precocious puberty and apparently a number of other conditions depending on whether for male or female.

Some children go through normal puberty at an early age which is apparently not good for them if they want to reach their maximum height potential, and can be alarming for children going through puberty much earlier than their peers.

There seems to be no problem using them in the short-term, but the long-term use is apparently much less clear.

Interesting, probably true, but ultimately irrelevant the point I was making.

These drugs are/were being used to "treat" kids going through puberty when its NOT precocious, and is just a normal part of growing up, purely on their say-so that they "feel" they are not whatever is their observable biological sex. 12-15 year old simply DO NOT have the maturity to make such impactful decisions.

 

[smartcooky]

I was not referring to sex (the male/female binary) but rather to the meaning of gender as typically used in 21st century English. You seem to have confusing the former for the latter, which is a common enough mistake.

Oh rubbish!! I'm not confused about this at all.

The real meaning of gender is biological sex, its just different word for the same thing - it always has been, and it always will be. So when I say...

"When I am naked, and look down between the tops of my legs, I see I have a cock and two balls. It therefore is an observable, biological reality that I am a male. This is a FACT, not some self-perception." I AM talking about gender because in my world, that being the world of observable, objective scientific reality, gender and biological sex are one and the same thing

The "gender" you are talking about is a fiction, and made up term, a word that has been hijacked by ideologues. You may feel differently, but facts are facts, they don't care how you feel.

 

[Emily's Cat]

I don't think this is true. Puberty blockers were developed to treat precocious puberty, not gender dysphoria.

Achooalleee... They were developed to treat specific types of sex-linked cancers and tumors. Their earliest secondary use was for chemical castration of sex-offenders. Treatment of precocious puberty came after that.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Some children go through normal puberty at an early age which is apparently not good for them if they want to reach their maximum height potential, and can be alarming for children going through puberty much earlier than their peers.

Well... it's not really height and discomfort that is the driver for treatment. Early triggering of the pituitary process has some negative health outcomes. One of the biggest ones is osteosclerosis caused by the accretion of bone density prior to the lengthening that would normally occur when the adrenal process triggers. This can result in bones getting too dense, and that can result in deformation, particularly of the long bones, when the adrenal does actually trigger. There are other impacts related to ways in which the body changes when secondary sexual characteristics develop, but when the skeletal infrastructure isn't there to support it, as well as things like the increased size of the uterus in females putting pressure on other internal organs because the abdomen hasn't grown to a sufficient size. There are other longer term risks as well.

At the end of the day, it really isn't about "oh, I'm developing early and this makes me uncomfortable".

I think the risk versus benefits for using them to treat precocious puberty probably needs to be reviewed in light of some recent evidence.

Sure, it probably deserves some additional review of the long-term effects. There should always be a balance between immediate and future impacts, and the risks should be evaluated.

That said, there's a difference between (a) using a drug to prevent a deleterious medical outcome that would occur if the drug were not used versus (b) using a drug to prevent a natural process and introduce deleterious medical outcomes that would not otherwise occur.

 

[d4m10n]

The real meaning of gender is biological sex, its just different word for the same thing - it always has been, and it always will be.

Prescriptivist nonsense. Linguistic meaning stems from actual usage, not from some Platonic realm.

 

[Matthew Best]

Achooalleee... They were developed to treat specific types of sex-linked cancers and tumors. Their earliest secondary use was for chemical castration of sex-offenders. Treatment of precocious puberty came after that.

Either way, the idea that they wouldn't exist if not for the trans lobby is obviously nonsense.

 

[Matthew Best]

Prescriptivist nonsense. Linguistic meaning stems from actual usage, not from some Platonic realm.

Tell that to the French.

 

[smartcooky]

Prescriptivist nonsense. Linguistic meaning stems from actual usage, not from some Platonic realm.

Not when that usage if hijacked by ideologues with agendas.

 

[smartcooky]

Either way, the idea that they wouldn't exist if not for the trans lobby is obviously nonsense.

But their use would be a lot more rare were if not for the trans lobby.

 

[angrysoba]

The real meaning of gender is biological sex, its just different word for the same thing - it always has been, and it always will be.

I also disagree with this.

My understanding is that the term gender basically just meant type and the way it acquired the current meaning is through the medium of grammatical gender.

As we all know, many languages gender all kinds of nouns in their languages, and arbitrarily some of them will be grouped in one way, and others in another. It has been hypothesized, I believe, suggesting that nobody really knows, that whatever group man and woman fell into was considered masculine or feminine. Hence a table is feminine in French because the grammar around it happens to coincide in morphology with the way that woman is used.

So it defininitely did not always simply mean sex.

But anyway, what is masculine and feminine certainly is socially constructed. It may indeed have a helping hand from biology, and there is obviously a big debate about whether or not men like machines and things, and women like knitting and shopping.

Funnily enough, this is where a certain "gender critical" movement seems to split.

The right-wingers argue that there is only sex and women be shopping and cooking!

The TERFs argue that there is only sex and that gender is a patriarchal form of oppression!

In my opinion, things are more complicated than that. The right is probably correct that there is a certain hardwired form of gender that comes from biology, but that of course opens the door to the possibility that there are men who genuinely feel more like women than men because their brain says so. Then again, I somewhat agree with the TERFs who argue that just because they are women doesn't mean they can't cut their hair short and work on an oil rig if they want.

 

[lionking]

Two blokes, banned from competing as women by the International Boxing Federation, are competing in the Olympics. Surely this has to be overturned.

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/a...-championships-cleared-to-compete-at-olympics


“The International *Olympic Committee has confirmed that two boxers who were disqualified from the world champion*ships last year for failing gender eligibility tests will be allowed to fight in Paris.

Imane Khelif of Algeria and Lin Yu‑ting of Chinese Taipei (Taiwan) both start their Olympic campaigns this week: Khelif will meet the Italian Angela Carini in the 66kg *cate*gory, and Lin is expected to face an unnamed opponent in the 57kg cate*gory on Friday.”

Let’s hope competent, strong woman boxers kick their arse.