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Transwomen are not Women - Part 15

Matthew Best said:
I presumed (though I haven't looked into it) that they were people with DSDs, like Caster Semenya. Semenya uses female pronouns, but not because they consider themself transgender.
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Caster Semenya has a male-specific DSD, and is male. People with DSDs aren't some newfangled "other" sex, they're all either male or female, and with the exception of DSDs associated with mixed-sex mosaicism and chimerism, they are unique to one sex or the other.

How Semenya likes to refer to themself is irrelevant. At the end of the day, Semenya is a male that wants to be referred to as if they were female... and that seems to be in keeping with the fundamental premise of transgenderism.
 
d4m10n said:
Here's the NYT article (unlocked):
Italian Boxer Quits Bout, Sparking Furor Over Gender at Olympics
https://www.nytimes.com/2024/08/01/...unlocked_article_code=1._k0.e8cl.3IEukvXZgBB3

I'm inclined to think this comes down to how much you trust the word of International Boxing Association president Umar Kremlev. :boxedin:
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As opposed to how much we trust our eyes and our understanding of sexual dimorphism in humans, and the fact that both of those boxers being complained about are blatantly and obviously male?
 
johnny karate said:
The only people obligated to provide sources are those claiming these boxers are biologically male. So far, those sources are "blatantly and obviously" absent.
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IBA website here:
https://www.iba.sport/

Their Competition Rules, effective from 3/3/2024 ( I do not know about any earlier versions), contains a glossary:

“Men/Male/Boy” means an individual with chromosome XY. For this purpose, the Boxers can
be submitted to a random and/or targeted gender test to confirm the above, which will serve
for the gender eligibility criteria for the IBA Competitions



If this criterion was in use when IBA disqualified the two boxers, the implication is that they tested XY.
 
Lord Muck oGentry said:
IBA website here:
https://www.iba.sport/

Their Competition Rules, effective from 3/3/2024 ( I do not know about any earlier versions), contains a glossary:

“Men/Male/Boy” means an individual with chromosome XY. For this purpose, the Boxers can
be submitted to a random and/or targeted gender test to confirm the above, which will serve
for the gender eligibility criteria for the IBA Competitions



If this criterion was in use when IBA disqualified the two boxers, the implication is that they tested XY.
Click to expand...


Absent the actual test results of these two boxers along with a scientific validation of those results, citing a rulebook isn't particularly compelling. Even less so in light of this:
The IBA was stripped of its status as the global governing body for boxing by the IOC in June last year because it failed to complete reforms on governance, finance and ethical issues.

A joint Paris 2024 Boxing Unit/IOC Statement read: "We have seen in reports misleading information about two female athletes competing at the Olympic Games Paris 2024. The two athletes have been competing in international boxing competitions for many years in the women's category, including the Olympic Games Tokyo 2020, International Boxing Association (IBA) World Championships and IBA-sanctioned tournaments.

"These two athletes were the victims of a sudden and arbitrary decision by the IBA. Towards the end of the IBA World Championships in 2023, they were suddenly disqualified without any due process.

"The current aggression against these two athletes is based entirely on this arbitrary decision, which was taken without any proper procedure - especially considering that these athletes had been competing in top-level competition for many years.

"Such an approach is contrary to good governance."
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I suppose it's possible that the IOC is involved in an international conspiracy to include two biological males in a women's boxing event.

Another possibility is that reactionary bigots with no regard for the truth are just being reactionary bigots with no regard for the truth.
 
johnny karate said:
I suppose it's possible that the IOC is involved in an international conspiracy to include two biological males in a women's boxing event.
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Why assume conspiracy? When Wambui, Niyonsaba, & Semenya shared a podium there was no conspiracy whatsoever, just three (XY) intersex athletes proudly representing their respective nations in women's sport.
 
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d4m10n said:
Why assume conspiracy? When Wambui, Niyonsaba, & Semenya shared a podium there was no conspiracy whatsoever, just three (XY) intersex athletes proudly representing their respective nations in women's sport.
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Multiple people in this thread have claimed these two boxers are biologically male. If that is true, the IOC is engaging in a conspiracy to hide it and allow them to compete in women’s boxing.
 
johnny karate said:
Multiple people in this thread have claimed these two boxers are biologically male. If that is true, the IOC is engaging in a conspiracy to hide it and allow them to compete in women’s boxing.
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It's obviously not a conspiracy if their own rules allow for it. The rules in question can still be criticized though.

Not that anything is clear at the moment, since it's all based on how she looks and a currently undisclosed and disputed test.
 
johnny karate said:
Multiple people in this thread have claimed these two boxers are biologically male. If that is true, the IOC is engaging in a conspiracy to hide it and allow them to compete in women’s boxing.
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Conspiracy isn't quite the right word. The problem is that the IOC isn't really supposed to reveal anything personal about athletes except whether or not they qualify. If they qualify in the women's category as biological males, then the IOC is only going to say they qualify, it's not going to say that they are in fact males.

The problem with that excuse, though, is that the qualification rules seem pretty damn opaque. I did some digging, and I can't find what exactly the rules for participation in the women's category even is. So it's entirely possible we're looking at people with conditions like Caster Semenya, who aren't really "trans" but rather have a DSD, and that under the current rules they're allowed to compete.
 
Olmstead said:
It's obviously not a conspiracy if their own rules allow for it. The rules in question can still be criticized though.

Not that anything is clear at the moment, since it's all based on how she looks and a currently undisclosed and disputed test.
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Ziggurat said:
Conspiracy isn't quite the right word. The problem is that the IOC isn't really supposed to reveal anything personal about athletes except whether or not they qualify. If they qualify in the women's category as biological males, then the IOC is only going to say they qualify, it's not going to say that they are in fact males.

The problem with that excuse, though, is that the qualification rules seem pretty damn opaque. I did some digging, and I can't find what exactly the rules for participation in the women's category even is. So it's entirely possible we're looking at people with conditions like Caster Semenya, who aren't really "trans" but rather have a DSD, and that under the current rules they're allowed to compete.
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The statement from the IOC specifically refers to them as “female athletes”. If they are anything other, the IOC is lying and engaged in a conspiracy to allow athletes who aren’t women to compete in a women’s event.
 
johnny karate said:
The statement from the IOC specifically refers to them as “female athletes”. If they are anything other, the IOC is lying and engaged in a conspiracy to allow athletes who aren’t women to compete in a women’s event.
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If she meets their criteria for "female", they can hardly refer to her as anything else.
 
johnny karate said:
Multiple people in this thread have claimed these two boxers are biologically male. If that is true, the IOC is engaging in a conspiracy to hide it and allow them to compete in women’s boxing.
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The IBA banned them

IOC allowed them

Someone is lying, and the IBA are the only ones who did any testing.

Draw your own conclusions.
 
Olmstead said:
In which case it would not be a conspiracy, but it could potentially be a case of bad criteria.
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They’ve been competing as female for years without issue. Their home countries - including one where it is illegal to change gender - are supporting them as female. The IOC is supporting them as female. There exists zero verifiable evidence that they are anything other than female. Claiming “bad criteria” to explain all that away is an even bigger stretch than a conspiracy.
 
johnny karate said:
That’s one vote for an international conspiracy.
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No, its one vote for IOC didn't do any testing and is taking the athletes at their word.

(and in any case, I don't think boxing should even be in the Olympics... the idea of a sport that involves bashing someone senseless with your fists - which would be aggravated assault in any other context - is hardly conducive to the Olympic values of excellence, respect and friendship).
 
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