Transwomen are not Women - Part 15

[Olmstead]

They’ve been competing as female for years without issue. Their home countries - including one where it is illegal to change gender - are supporting them as female. The IOC is supporting them as female. There exists zero verifiable evidence that they are anything other than female. Claiming “bad criteria” to explain all that away is an even bigger stretch than a conspiracy.

Well, the other option is that there was a conspiracy or incompetence on the part of IBA. I guess IOC seems more reputable, but I don't really know much about either organization.

We're considering a condition that would make a male's genitals appear female at birth, which sounds exactly like the kind of thing that a transgender-hostile country would try to streamline in some boneheaded way.

But to be honest, I don't feel comfortable discussing a person's undisclosed medical status in this way, so if IBA did mess up, it's a really big mess.

 

[johnny karate]

No, it’s one vote for IOC didn't do any testing and is taking the athletes at their word.

Claiming that IOC has eligibility requirements so lax that biological males can easily qualify for women’s events and get the full-throated support of the IOC is just a slightly different conspiracy.

 

[Pixel42]

In which case it would not be a conspiracy, but it could potentially be a case of bad criteria.

It's just different criteria. One includes a test for XY chromosomes, which it considers disqualifying, the other doesn't.

The fact that different people have different criteria for what meets the definition of "woman" is the reason this thread exists. Read its title.

No conspiracies, just differences of opinion.

 

[johnny karate]

It's just different criteria. One includes a test for XY chromosomes, which it considers disqualifying, the other doesn't.

The fact that different people have different criteria for what meets the definition of "woman" is the reason this thread exists. Read its title.

No conspiracies, just differences of opinion.

The IOC isn’t claiming a difference of opinion. They are claiming the IBA did not follow proper procedure in their determination and that it therefore isn’t valid. So yes, if we are to believe these two boxers are biologically male, it still requires a conspiracy for all this to happen the way it has.

 

[Pixel42]

The IOC isn’t claiming a difference of opinion. They are claiming the IBA did not follow proper procedure in their determination and that it therefore isn’t valid.

They are? I didn't seen that claim in the news articles I read.

What is the procedure they claim the IBA did not follow?

 

[johnny karate]

They are? I didn't seen that claim in the news articles I read.

What is the procedure they claim the IBA did not follow

From the IOC statement I linked in post# 146:

These two athletes were the victims of a sudden and arbitrary decision by the IBA. Towards the end of the IBA World Championships in 2023, they were suddenly disqualified without any due process.

The current aggression against these two athletes is based entirely on this arbitrary decision, which was taken without any proper procedure - especially considering that these athletes had been competing in top-level competition for many years.

Furthermore, the IBA has been plagued with corruption and scandal. To take them at their word as the sole piece of evidence that these boxers are biologically male is laughably foolish.

 

[smartcooky]

Furthermore, the IBA has been plagued with corruption and scandal. To take them at their word as the sole piece of evidence that these boxers are biologically male is laughably foolish.

Furthermore, the IOC has been plagued with corruption and scandal. To take them at their word as the sole piece of evidence that these boxers are biologically female is laughably foolish.

 

[Pixel42]

Whereas the BBC article I linked says

In a statement on Wednesday, the IBA said the pair were disqualified to "to uphold the level of fairness and utmost integrity of the competition".

It said they "did not undergo a testosterone examination but were subject to a separate and recognised test, whereby the specifics remain confidential".

"This test conclusively indicated that both athletes did not meet the required necessary eligibility criteria and were found to have competitive advantages over other female competitors," the body added.

Which suggests different criteria. I can't remember where I read that the additional test mentioned was for XY chromosomes.

 

[smartcooky]

Whereas the BBC article I linked says

Which suggests different criteria. I can't remember where I read that the additional test mentioned was for XY chromosomes.

Here is where the IBA XY criteria is laid out

https://www.reuters.com/sports/olympics/olympics-dsd-rules-focus-womens-boxing-2024-07-31/

And here is where it says the two boxers failed to meet the criteria

https://www.nytimes.com/2024/08/01/...unlocked_article_code=1._k0.e8cl.3IEukvXZgBB3

"The International Boxing Association, which ran those championships and ordered the disqualifications, offered little insight into the reasons for the boxers’ removal, saying in a statement that the disqualifications came after the athletes did not undergo a testosterone examination but were subject to a separate and recognized test."​

"The International Boxing Association, the former governing body for amateur boxing but one the Olympic body no longer recognizes, issued its own statement this week to explain why it had barred Khelifa and Lin last year. Umar Kremlev, the association’s president, said at the time that the boxers had been excluded from the 2023 world championships because testing revealed that they possessed X and Y chromosomes."​

https://www.iba.sport/news/statemen...fications-in-world-boxing-championships-2023/

"The disqualification was based on two tests conducted on both athletes as follows:

Test performed during the IBA Women’s World Boxing Championships in Istanbul 2022.
Test performed during the IBA Women’s World Boxing Championships in New Delhi 2023.

For clarification

Lin Yu-ting did not appeal the IBA’s decision to the Court of Arbitration for Sport (CAS), thus rendering the decision legally binding.
Imane Khelif initially appealed the decision to CAS but withdrew the appeal during the process, also making the IBA decision legally binding."​

 

[johnny karate]

Furthermore, the IOC has been plagued with corruption and scandal. To take them at their word as the sole piece of evidence that these boxers are biologically female is laughably foolish.

Good news, you don’t have take the IOC at their word as the only piece of evidence. Both the home country governments of the two boxers - including one that makes changing gender illegal - also reject the notion that they are biologically male. They have both competed as female in multiple events run by different organizations and have had no issue with eligibility with any of them.

The only source for the claim that they are biologically male is the test results from an unethical organization that no one outside of that organization have actually seen. All other available evidence points to them being biologically female.

Only someone with a predetermined belief could possibly look at the totality of evidence and conclude that they are biologically male.

Edit: And I’m not sure why you think lazily linking a Wikipedia article about controversies and scandals related to the Olympics tells us anything about the IOC. Perhaps you have something more specific you can provide to prove your point.

 

[johnny karate]

Here is where the IBA XY criteria is laid out

https://www.reuters.com/sports/olympics/olympics-dsd-rules-focus-womens-boxing-2024-07-31/

And here is where it says the two boxers failed to meet the criteria

https://www.nytimes.com/2024/08/01/...unlocked_article_code=1._k0.e8cl.3IEukvXZgBB3

"The International Boxing Association, which ran those championships and ordered the disqualifications, offered little insight into the reasons for the boxers’ removal, saying in a statement that the disqualifications came after the athletes did not undergo a testosterone examination but were subject to a separate and recognized test."​

"The International Boxing Association, the former governing body for amateur boxing but one the Olympic body no longer recognizes, issued its own statement this week to explain why it had barred Khelifa and Lin last year. Umar Kremlev, the association’s president, said at the time that the boxers had been excluded from the 2023 world championships because testing revealed that they possessed X and Y chromosomes."​

https://www.iba.sport/news/statemen...fications-in-world-boxing-championships-2023/

"The disqualification was based on two tests conducted on both athletes as follows:

Test performed during the IBA Women’s World Boxing Championships in Istanbul 2022.
Test performed during the IBA Women’s World Boxing Championships in New Delhi 2023.

For clarification

Lin Yu-ting did not appeal the IBA’s decision to the Court of Arbitration for Sport (CAS), thus rendering the decision legally binding.
Imane Khelif initially appealed the decision to CAS but withdrew the appeal during the process, also making the IBA decision legally binding."​

Now all you have to do is provide the results of the tests and scientific validation that they determine these two women are actually biologically male and you’ll have proven your claim. Until then, your claim is baseless.

 

[Pixel42]

Both the home country governments of the two boxers - including one that makes changing gender illegal - also reject the notion that they are biologically male.

I don't think anyone is disputing that the individuals in question were brought up female, so everybody's reasonable default assumption is that they are indeed female. Is that the only criteria on which their governments have rejected the notion that they are biologically male or have they done tests to determine their sex, and if so did they include a test for the presence or absence of a Y chromosome?

They have both competed as female in multiple events run by different organizations and have had no issue with eligibility with any of them.

Did any of those organisation's criteria include, and test for, the presence or absence of a Y chromosome?

The only source for the claim that they are biologically male is the test results from an unethical organization that no one outside of that organization have actually seen.

If they're the only organisation that includes the presence or absence of a Y chromosome in their criteria then they're obviously going to be the only organisation that test for it. As for publishing the results: sensitive medical information is usually considered confidential, indeed in most countries publishing it is illegal. If the test wasn't valid surely at least one of the individuals ruled out by it would have disputed it rather than accepting their ineligibility by this particular organisation's criteria.

 

[Pixel42]

The interesting question for me is whether the presence or absence of the Y chromosome is indeed sufficient to rule someone out as a competitor in a female sports league. I know the differences between male and female bodies which make separate female sports leagues advisable are not confined to the presence or absence of dangly bits, but I don't know how many of them are determined by the presence or absence of the Y chromosome.

 

[johnny karate]

I don't think anyone is disputing that the individuals in question were brought up female, so everybody's reasonable default assumption is that they are indeed female. Is that the only criteria on which their governments have rejected the notion that they are biologically male or have they done tests to determine their sex, and if so did they include a test for the presence or absence of a Y chromosome?

Why would that be necessary?

Did any of those organisation's criteria include, and test for, the presence or absence of a Y chromosome?

Why would that be necessary?

If they're the only organisation that includes the presence or absence of a Y chromosome in their criteria then they're obviously going to be the only organisation that test for it. As for publishing the results: sensitive medical information is usually considered confidential, indeed in most countries publishing it is illegal. If the test wasn't valid surely at least one of the individuals ruled out by it would have disputed it rather than accepting their ineligibility by this particular organisation's criteria.

If a discredited organization failed to follow the proper procedure in making their determination, what would be the point of formally disputing the results? And these women continue to compete as women, so they very clearly informally dispute the results.

Rationalize all you want, but the claim that these women are biologically male still rests on a single piece of evidence that is unverified and therefore unreliable.

 

[lionking]

If the test wasn't valid surely at least one of the individuals ruled out by it would have disputed it rather than accepting their ineligibility by this particular organisation's criteria.

Indeed. It seems that the boxers decided to have another go with a different regulatory body.

 

[johnny karate]

Indeed. It seems that the boxers decided to have another go with a different regulatory body.

One that isn’t widely discredited for rampant corruption.

Imane Khelif has also boxed in numerous other competitions overseen by various governing bodies without issue. The idea that she is somehow gaming the system is silly. The IBA and their determination is the outlier, not the other way around.

 

[Pixel42]

Why would that be necessary?

Why would that be necessary?

Whether or not it's necessary (and I said in my next post I don't know the answer to that question) it appears to be the reason why different organisations have ruled the same individuals both eligible and ineligible to compete as women in a boxing tournament. So it's certainly relevant to the discussion, and to the disagreement as to whether the current controversy is due to malice/conspiracy or simply to a difference in eligibility criteria.

If a discredited organization failed to follow the proper procedure in making their determination, what would be the point of formally disputing the results? And these women continue to compete as women, so they very clearly informally dispute the results.

Not necessarily. They may just not agree with the organisation's criteria for eligibility.

 

[Samson]

One that isn’t widely discredited for rampant corruption.

Imane Khelif has also boxed in numerous other competitions overseen by various governing bodies without issue. The idea that she is somehow gaming the system is silly. The IBA and their determination is the outlier, not the other way around.

This individual is 30 kg heavier than the woman, and also with internal testes, no ovaries, and male puberty, has 160% the hitting power.
And he sexually assaulted her after the match.

https://twitter.com/nicholelizaq/status/1819035576559120743?t=S9iFpUG19Mm6ueT3Ek6TFw&s=19

 

[johnny karate]

Whether or not it's necessary (and I said in my next post I don't know the answer to that question) it appears to be the reason why different organisations have ruled the same individuals both eligible and ineligible to compete as women in a boxing tournament. So it's certainly relevant to the discussion, and to the disagreement as to whether the current controversy is due to malice/conspiracy or simply to a difference in eligibility criteria.

Then we’re putting the cart before the horse. There’s no reason to expect a certain test to be performed if we don’t even know the scientific validity of that test.

Not necessarily. They may just not agree with the organisation's criteria for eligibility.

Seems like six on one hand, half a dozen on the other to me. Either way, this criteria is an outlier and the organization that used it is not well respected in the boxing community. I see no reason to accept what they say at face value.

 

[johnny karate]

This individual is 30 kg heavier than the woman, and also with internal testes, no ovaries, and male puberty, has 160% the hitting power.
And he sexually assaulted her after the match.

https://twitter.com/nicholelizaq/status/1819035576559120743?t=S9iFpUG19Mm6ueT3Ek6TFw&s=19

Team Biologically Male has a delusional Trump supporter on their side. That’s got to feel good.