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Transwomen are not Women - Part 15

lionking said:
Two blokes, banned from competing as women by the International Boxing Federation, are competing in the Olympics. Surely this has to be overturned.

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/a...-championships-cleared-to-compete-at-olympics


“The International *Olympic Committee has confirmed that two boxers who were disqualified from the world champion*ships last year for failing gender eligibility tests will be allowed to fight in Paris.

Imane Khelif of Algeria and Lin Yu‑ting of Chinese Taipei (Taiwan) both start their Olympic campaigns this week: Khelif will meet the Italian Angela Carini in the 66kg *cate*gory, and Lin is expected to face an unnamed opponent in the 57kg cate*gory on Friday.”

Let’s hope competent, strong woman boxers kick their arse.
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Yep, fully agree that they should NOT be allowed to box with women.
 
d4m10n said:
Prescriptivist nonsense. Linguistic meaning stems from actual usage, not from some Platonic realm.
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No ****, Sherlock. And actual usage for all but a small segment currently presents gender as being synonymous with sex. That small segment, however, has decided to impose their own jargonistic meaning, and try to force it on everyone else in an attempt to coerce their platonic ideal of language.
 
lionking said:
Two blokes, banned from competing as women by the International Boxing Federation, are competing in the Olympics. Surely this has to be overturned.

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/a...-championships-cleared-to-compete-at-olympics


“The International *Olympic Committee has confirmed that two boxers who were disqualified from the world champion*ships last year for failing gender eligibility tests will be allowed to fight in Paris.

Imane Khelif of Algeria and Lin Yu‑ting of Chinese Taipei (Taiwan) both start their Olympic campaigns this week: Khelif will meet the Italian Angela Carini in the 66kg *cate*gory, and Lin is expected to face an unnamed opponent in the 57kg cate*gory on Friday.”

Let’s hope competent, strong woman boxers kick their arse.
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Not sure this belongs in this thread - there's no suggestion these two boxers are transgender, is there?
 
The BMA has called for "a pause on the implementation of the recommendations in" the Cass Review, while they (the BMA) conduct "an evaluation" of it.

https://www.bma.org.uk/bma-media-ce...entity-services-for-children-and-young-people

Poor timing, considering it was just a few days ago that a judge said that it was correct to regard the Cass Review as "the best and most up-to-date scientific evidence available, and further research on the effects and safety of puberty blockers for children and young people was not required."

https://www.judiciary.uk/wp-content...TransActual-CIC-and-Anor-v-SSHSC-and-Anor.pdf
 
Matthew Best said:
Not sure this belongs in this thread - there's no suggestion these two boxers are transgender, is there?
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Given the pronouns used, it appears that there's at least some suggestion of it:

In its internal system, which is provided to journalists in Paris, the IOC states that Khelif was “disqualified just hours before her gold medal showdown against Yang Liu at the 2023 world championships in New Delhi, India, after her elevated *levels of testosterone failed to meet the eligibility criteria”. The IOC also acknowledges that Lin was “stripped of her bronze medal after failing to meet eligibility requirements based on the results of a biochemical test.
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If they're not transgender, then there would presumably be no good argument for using female pronouns to refer to what are clearly two males.
 
Transgenderism of convenience, perhaps?

Also, in my opinion, another way to tell if a man is trans is if they're willing to give up being the best athlete they could possibly be, in order to downgrade their bodies and wear womanface at the highest levels of sport.
 
Emily's Cat said:
Given the pronouns used, it appears that there's at least some suggestion of it:



If they're not transgender, then there would presumably be no good argument for using female pronouns to refer to what are clearly two males.
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I presumed (though I haven't looked into it) that they were people with DSDs, like Caster Semenya. Semenya uses female pronouns, but not because they consider themself transgender.
 
angrysoba said:
I also disagree with this.

My understanding is that the term gender basically just meant type and the way it acquired the current meaning is through the medium of grammatical gender.

As we all know, many languages gender all kinds of nouns in their languages, and arbitrarily some of them will be grouped in one way, and others in another. It has been hypothesized, I believe, suggesting that nobody really knows, that whatever group man and woman fell into was considered masculine or feminine. Hence a table is feminine in French because the grammar around it happens to coincide in morphology with the way that woman is used.

So it defininitely did not always simply mean sex.
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Your understanding is only partially correct.

The Oxford Etymological Dictionary of the English Language of 1882 defined gender as kind, breed, sex, derived from the Latin ablative case of genus, like genere natus, which refers to birth. The first edition of the Oxford English Dictionary (OED1, Volume 4, 1900) notes the original meaning of gender as "kind" had already become obsolete.

angrysoba said:
It may indeed have a helping hand from biology, and there is obviously a big debate about whether or not men like machines and things, and women like knitting and shopping.

Funnily enough, this is where a certain "gender critical" movement seems to split.

The right-wingers argue that there is only sex and women be shopping and cooking!

The TERFs argue that there is only sex and that gender is a patriarchal form of oppression!
In my opinion, things are more complicated than that. The right is probably correct that there is a certain hardwired form of gender that comes from biology, but that of course opens the door to the possibility that there are men who genuinely feel more like women than men because their brain says so. Then again, I somewhat agree with the TERFs who argue that just because they are women doesn't mean they can't cut their hair short and work on an oil rig if they want.
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I guess that makes me more closely aligned with the TERFs than the political right. I'm relieved to know that :D

Now all of this might be interesting and some of it might even be true, but none of it makes me wrong.

The word "gender" was hijacked by the trans lobby, in much the same way that "gay" and "queer" were hijacked by the homosexual lobby. Its worth noting that both of those words still also mean what they once did even if those usages are less common that they once were. Same applies to "gender"

If I ask someone what is their gender, and they tell me female, I will expect them to be biologically female. If they then turn out to have a full beard and Adam's apple, and/or a cock and balls between their legs, then they are actually biologically male, and they have lied to me.... and they certainly should NOT be entitled to compete in womens' sports under ANY circumstances, nor have unfettered access to ANY women-only spaces.
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Matthew Best said:
Not sure this belongs in this thread - there's no suggestion these two boxers are transgender, is there?
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Well...

Algerian Imane Khelif moved past Angela Carini when the Italian abandoned their 66kg fight after 46 seconds in the first round on Thursday.

Khelif has been in the spotlight since she was disqualified just hours before the gold medal match at the 2023 world championships for failing International Boxing Association (IBA) eligibility rules that prevent athletes with XY chromosomes from competing in women’s events. She was ruled eligible, however, to compete in Paris, a competition run by the International Olympic Committee...

Some sports have limited the levels of testosterone allowed for athletes competing in women’s competition, while others ban everyone who has been through male puberty.
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Link

On Twitter, Sean Ingle, another Guardian writer says this...

Utterly heartbreaking hearing the Italian boxer Angela Carini in the mixed zone. Blood on her shorts.

Broke down in tears as she explained that she had never been hit so hard before.

Added that she came her to honour her father, that she was a warrior, but had to stop.
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Link

It sounds as though he is stopping just short of condemning the participation of Imane Khelif.
 
In fact, Sean Ingle has followed up with...

More from Italian fighter Angela Carini. Did not want to talk about rules but added:

"After the second one (blow to the nose) I couldn't breathe anymore. I went to my coach and said 'enough' because it takes maturity and courage to stop. I didn't feel like fighting anymore."
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Huge intervention by UN Special rapporteur on violence against women and girls

Reem Alsalem UNSR Violence Against Women said:
#Angelacarini rightly followed her instincts and prioritized her physical safety, but she and other female athletes should not have been exposed to this physical and psychological
Violence based on their sex.
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Link

He's also retweeted a short video of the punch that sent her out...

Link
 
Emily's Cat said:
And actual usage for all but a small segment currently presents gender as being synonymous with sex.
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As a skeptic, I'm just going to take your word for this. Presumably you've randomly sampled English speakers and are currently waiting to get your results through peer review. ;)
 
smartcooky said:
Your understanding is only partially correct.

The Oxford Etymological Dictionary of the English Language of 1882 defined gender as kind, breed, sex, derived from the Latin ablative case of genus, like genere natus, which refers to birth. The first edition of the Oxford English Dictionary (OED1, Volume 4, 1900) notes the original meaning of gender as "kind" had already become obsolete.
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I think if you quote something that you have just Googled, you should put it in quotation marks and cite your source. Otherwise it looks like you just happen to have these antique tomes on your bookshelf and that you have just consulted them.

Like this:

Scholarly Community Encyclopedia said:
The modern English word gender comes from the Middle English gender, gendre, a loanword from Anglo-Norman and Middle French gendre. This, in turn, came from Latin genus. Both words mean "kind", "type", or "sort". They derive ultimately from a widely attested Proto-Indo-European (PIE) root gen-,[1][2] which is also the source of kin, kind, king, and many other English words.[3] It appears in Modern French in the word genre (type, kind, also genre sexuel) and is related to the Greek root gen- (to produce), appearing in gene, genesis, and oxygen. The Oxford Etymological Dictionary of the English Language of 1882 defined gender as kind, breed, sex, derived from the Latin ablative case of genus, like genere natus, which refers to birth.[4] The first edition of the Oxford English Dictionary (OED1, Volume 4, 1900) notes the original meaning of gender as "kind" had already become obsolete.
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Link

But the point is that your source contradicts your claim:

The real meaning of gender is biological sex, its just different word for the same thing - it always has been, and it always will be.
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My point that it simply meant "type" is entirely correct, not partially, and you are just trying to make distinctions without a difference.

Given that these uses trace back to Proto-Indo-European we don't really know why these different genders took hold in various languages (including English), but only that at some point they began to be referred to as masculine and feminine (among others) and from there, the concept crept further. This is not so much a "hijacking" as simply the way that words evolve over time.

Of course, none of this means that men should compete in women's sports or should be housed in women's jails, but it is best not to make bad arguments to further your cause such as by asserting falsehoods about what the word gender has always meant.
 
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