Transwomen are not Women - Part 15

[Dani]

Under self-ID as the TRA's want it, you cannot lie about this. Whatever you say is axiomatically true. It is true because you said it.

Yup. There is no "self-ID, but". Once you introduce the "but", self-ID collapses.

If policies, both in the private and public sphere, need to distinguish between men and women (regardless of whether these concepts are determined via sex or gender), then self-ID is very shaky ground. In this scenario, it creates incentives the moment people see the possibility entirely in their hands of being granted access to that which is limited or denied on the basis of sex/gender differentiation.

On the other hand, if there is no need for public and private policies to make the distinction in the first place, then self-ID becomes as trivial as "nice hat!" Under this scenario, of course, everything goes and no objections from me.

The thing is, I'm of the idea that we should make the least distinctions possible between men and women when creating policies, but that some distinctions are inevitable if we want to avoid a greater harm than the good "absolute equality" produces.

Self-ID can be cool most of the time, though. Like, again, "nice hat!" I'm all in for that.

 

[d4m10n]

You seem to be working from the assumption that everyone has a gender identity.

English-speaking adults can all respond to the following question: "Do you consider yourself a man, woman, or neither?"

(I suppose for the sake of completeness we could mention that some people will say "Both!" rather than neither but I'm willing to count them under "neither" for the purposes of a gender marker scheme on official documents, that is, W/M/X or "woman," "man," "non-binary" if you've got room to spell it out.)

When you ask whether "everyone has a gender identity" you're asking something fairly tricky and perhaps even metaphysical, which is why I simplified matters by just asking people how they identify themselves.

Putting both elements on ID cards is effectively forcing everyone in that society to play make-believe so that a minority of people can have euphoria about their ID cards.

You don't have to pretend to believe anything in order to answer the question about how you identify yourself.

It's about as useful and meaningful as requiring that everyone must put their religion on their ID Cards, and then to go that extra step and insist that atheism is a religion too.

Ever heard of dog tags?

 

[d4m10n]

d4m10n, what has occurred in your life that has shifted your view on this so substantially from what it was just a year ago? For a while, I thought you were playing Devil's Advocate, but now I'm not so sure of that.

My personal views do not matter here, all that matters is what can be supported by evidence and arguments.

You're now seem to be pretty well embracing gender identity and the notion that everyone "identifies" as a "man" or a "woman", as well as the language of "cisgender".

Every adult I know identifies themselves as a man, a woman, or non-binary when asked to do so, typically while filling out an online registration form.

Then you throw in arguments that are on the ragged edge of "you can't actually tell what someone's sex is, it's just an educated guess and you're likely to be wrong".

Pro-tip: Don't put strawman characterizations in quotations. It's not just wrong, it's poor form.

 

[Puppycow]

Ever heard of dog tags?

I was in the Navy and my dog tags said NORELPREF. All caps with no spaces if memory serves. Basically everything on the dog tags is written in capital letters.

So, for gender you could have NOGENPREF?

When I was young, if you had to tick a box on a form, it was usually labeled "Sex" and the choices were only "Male" or "Female". Some people prefer to keep it that way. (They don't want it taken away and replaced with "Gender".)

Should we have two separate ones now? The traditional "Sex" with only two choices (or three if you want to include intersex) plus a separate one for "Gender Identity" with as many choices as you want?

 

[Aber]

Every adult I know identifies themselves as a man, a woman, or non-binary when asked to do so, typically while filling out an online registration form.

You have excluded those who consider that they are a man/woman, and that they are reporting a fact not an opinion.

 

[Emily's Cat]

English-speaking adults can all respond to the following question: "Do you consider yourself a man, woman, or neither?"

Most rational adults understand that this is a meaningless question. In response, I would say "Consideration is irrelevant, I AM a female human being, how I feel about that doesn't matter".

And that's at the heart of this issue - how a person feels about what they want their personality and psyche to represent in some ephemeral mystic fashion is meaningless and irrelevant to anyone who isn't part of their particular religion.

You might similarly ask someone "Do you consider yourself Irish or Mexican or something else?" and you can get an answer that you might even find interesting. You can have some great conversations about it. But if that person is an American citizen, and is not an Irish citizen or a Mexican citizen, then how they feel about their ancestry or a culture with which they resonate doesn't have any real-world meaning or implication.

My ancestry is predominantly Irish and German. So the **** what? I'm an American citizen, who grew up in American, who has rights guaranteed by the US Constitution, and I exist within the framework of American laws and regulations. Whether or not I really like corned beef or schnitzel, and whether I prefer Guinness or Doppel Bock to Bud Light is nothing more than a personality quirk.

When you ask someone whether they consider themself to be a man, a woman, or neither... all you're asking is whether or not they accept and have affinity for a set of stereotypes.

Every adult I know identifies themselves as a man, a woman, or non-binary when asked to do so, typically while filling out an online registration form.

Baloney. I would say that the overwhelming majority of adults that you know don't "identify" as any of those things; they acknowledge what sex they are. "Identification" has nothing to do with any answer you would get - and I would bet that the majority of adults you interact with would look at you funny if you asked them such an inane question. The only people who would take that question seriously are going to be transgender identified individuals or people who believe in mystical gendered souls.

 

[smartcooky]

English-speaking adults can all respond to the following question: "Do you consider yourself a man, woman, or neither?"

My answer could be: "The question is irrelevant. I don't consider myself to be any of those... I know I am a man... but I consider myself to be an Attack Helicopter."

You have excluded those who consider that they are a man/woman, and that they are reporting a fact not an opinion.

Exactly this, 100%

 

[d4m10n]

Should we have two separate ones now? The traditional "Sex" with only two choices (or three if you want to include intersex) plus a separate one for "Gender Identity" with as many choices as you want?

This is basically what I was suggesting upthread, but we can easily keep both fields down to three choices.

 

[d4m10n]

My answer could be: "The question is irrelevant. I don't consider myself to be any of those... I know I am a man... but I consider myself to be an Attack Helicopter."

Alternatively, you could just say "man" as you do when filling out government forms.

 

[d4m10n]

Most rational adults understand that this is a meaningless question.

Go ask 100 adults, I bet almost none of them will have trouble answering the question. Seriously, give it a try instead of just telling us your intuitions about rational adults.

Happened to come across this question in the field just this a.m. while attempting to sign up for an NBC account to watch more Olympics events.

When you ask someone whether they consider themself to be a man, a woman, or neither... all you're asking is whether or not they accept and have affinity for a set of stereotypes.

Nope.

I would say that the overwhelming majority of adults that you know don't "identify" as any of those things; they acknowledge what sex they are.

Certainly not on the NBC Universal form, since "non-binary" is about gender rather than sex.

 

[Paul2]

Go ask 100 adults, I bet almost none of them will have trouble answering the question.

My guess - and it's only that - is that the people who would have no trouble answering the question would do so on the basis of interpreting - consciously or not - the question to mean, "are you a man or a woman?"

 

[d4m10n]

My guess - and it's only that - is that the people who would have no trouble answering the question would do so on the basis of interpreting - consciously or not - the question to mean, "are you a man or a woman?"

That's just fine for those who self-identify as the gender which is (nearly always) associated with their sex at birth.

 

[Paul2]

That's just fine for those who self-identify as the gender which is (nearly always) associated with their sex at birth.

That point seems to be orthogonal to what I said. My statement was an estimate of what a poll would show, not what we'd like a poll to show. Your point is how the interpretation I offered of your question wouldn't be fine for a certain class of people. Presumably, the people for whom the interpretation that I offered of your question wouldn't be just fine wouldn't accept that interpretation.

So I don't know where you're going in relation to my point.

ETA: Perhaps it will help if I let the other shoe drop. If it is true that most people would answer the original question not as a question about how they consider themselves but as a question about what they are, then your point about your question fades away, I think.

I see this getting too far down into the weeds; I may well let you have the last say on this.

 

[Emily's Cat]

This is basically what I was suggesting upthread, but we can easily keep both fields down to three choices.

One of those fields needs to be restricted to two options.
The other field is useless, but whatever.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Go ask 100 adults, I bet almost none of them will have trouble answering the question. Seriously, give it a try instead of just telling us your intuitions about rational adults.

Happened to come across this question in the field just this a.m. while attempting to sign up for an NBC account to watch more Olympics events.

[qimg]https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20240724/fbf5d550aa7800851b00e8b9966723f1.jpg[/qimg]

Nope.

Certainly not on the NBC Universal form, since "non-binary" is about gender rather than sex.

Let me get this straight - You think that a drop down that panders to a very vocal group of activists is somehow representative of the views of the vast majority of people?

I'm interested in selling my very successful cranberry bog, located in sunny AZ. Are you interested in buying?

 

[Emily's Cat]

That's just fine for those who self-identify as the gender which is (nearly always) associated with their sex at birth.

I reject the entirety of your framing. I reject the implicit assumption that you're relying on, and I won't play this game.

 

[Samson]

This video covers the field.
A young white woman, typically described as unreachable by Wesley Yang, deplores Elon Musk for claiming to be tricked into allowing his young gay autistic son to be sterilized.
She is an indoctrinated weirdo.
Elon Musk vows to stop this virus.
He has discovered the great pain attached to discovering trans "women" are not women, just people who warp space and time like a black hole. (my stunning analogy)
Elon explains the death of his son to J Petersen.

https://youtu.be/W192fcF6_eU?si=-gbNyUoHilpG9APf

 

[novaphile]

This video covers the field.
A young white woman, typically described as unreachable by Wesley Yang, deplores Elon Musk for claiming to be tricked into allowing his young gay autistic son to be sterilized.
She is an indoctrinated weirdo.
Elon Musk vows to stop this virus.
He has discovered the great pain attached to discovering trans "women" are not women, just people who warp space and time like a black hole. (my stunning analogy)

https://youtu.be/W192fcF6_eU?si=-gbNyUoHilpG9APf

I don't accept that trans people are dense enough to warp space and time.

Reality distortion, I can accept.

Lots of people appear to have reality distortion fields around them.

/me looks at Sampson

 

[Samson]

I don't accept that trans people are dense enough to warp space and time.

Reality distortion, I can accept.

Lots of people appear to have reality distortion fields around them.

* novaphile;14369853 looks at Sampson

Who is Sampson?
My analogy is supposed to refer to the great damage done to a great number, all of whom have life meaning subtracted and sucked away.
But then I find the more I research this field the worse it looks for every person involved, and there are millions now.
Sorry to be so bleak, your opinion of me is completely irrelevant, but thanks for trying to help.
I am out of reach like that indoctrinated woman. There is a complete firewall between us.

 

[Samson]

To clarify, the firewall is between me and the young woman.
Wesley Yang has described this in 18 to 25 year olds, but that was last year.
Maybe it is 19 to 26 year olds now.
That sincere apologist for the industry is 28.

His views as a "public intellectual" are in his substack, I thought I first heard him on BBC, which could be deemed unlikely, as the thieves are rainbowticked into oblivion. Helen Joyce says too many "trans" kids associated with the state broadcaster. Nothing like the white middle class poshters to pollute the science.

https://substack.com/@wesleyyang