Cont: The sinking of MS Estonia: Case Reopened Part VI

[Vixen]

How did a sub collision result in a hole above the waterline?

How did a submerged diesel electric sub keep up with the ferry?

If a sub caused the damage why do you think there will be evidence of an explosion on the damaged section of the hull?

Only part of the breach is above the waterline.

Are you now claiming there is no tear in the hull, because you say so?

 

[Vixen]

I'll repeat the question as you seem to have missed it the first time: whose military?

<shrug>

 

[Vixen]

The Russian station that was broadcasting a carrier wave om ch16 cannot interference with Swedish coastal radio VHF. That is not possible due to the curvature of earth. The signal cannot reach that far.

The simple answer is that they were too far away to reach the Swedish coastal stations.

The sequence of events is this. Where there is a Mayday message, it is the nearest land Coastguard MRCC who assumes responsibility for the rescue. Accordingly, Tammes' final Mayday message* ended 01:31.

The last radio contact with Estonia took place on September 28, 1994 at 1.31 am and ended with the words: "How far are you? Really bad, really bad now looks like yes here. "

JAIC Report

MARIELLA's second mate Ingmar Hans-Göran Eklund testified:

After we had heard the 'Mayday' call we saw the lights of ESTONIA. While I was taking care of the navigation, the master was trying to get in contact with Helsinki Radio, first over VHF and then on MF 2182 kHz, both of which failed. He finally managed to get in contact with the shore by mobile phone.«

Echoing what Capt. Jan Tore Thoresson said in his police statement.


Mikko Montonen the Capt.Lt of Turku MRCC picked up the Mayday call - all of which are recorded - at 01:36. His first duty was to mobilise rescue operations locally and a Puma helicopter set off from Turku accordingly.

Montonen, who was the back officer, arrived at the Turku Rescue Center at 1.36. "The emergency message talked about tilting and black outs, but Estonia was still visible on the radar and we were working on that." 1.45 p.m. Estonia disappeared from the radar of the Maritime Rescue Center. "At the time, it was clear that the ship had sunk and we launched a rescue operation for the catastrophe. That included the Mariehamn Maritime Rescue Center liaising with Stockholm," Montonen says.

The problem here was getting Estonia's coordinates as Tammes had cited - or appeared to cite - coordinates that were eight minutes (five km) out.

Nobody knows why Ainsalu and subsequently also Tammes did not use the bridge installed VHF or even the MF installation, being much stronger, which would have connected them with the outside world immediately.

The fact of not having coordinates - thanks to the EPIRB's being switched off and the Estonia's rapid sinking - caused a delay in Helsinki Radio being able to provide precise location. At last at circa 01:52 communication was made with nearby Stockholm via Mariehammn in the Ålands, who conveyed the request for additional help.

The Stockholm Maritime Rescue Center received information about the sinking via Mariehamn at 1.55. When Turku was contacted from Stockholm at 1.57, Turku also asked for helicopters from Sweden, as Mariella, who was the first to arrive in the sinking area, announced that the ships would not be able to rescue those at sea due to the sea.

The captain of the Stockholm Maritime Rescue Center, Sea Captain Lennart Johansson, confirms that the information about the sinking of Estonia came via Mariehamn at 1.55. The distress message broadcast on Estonian VHF radio was not part of Stockholm's coastal radio.

"We called Helsinki first and then Turku. We agreed with the Turku Rescue Center to send helicopters and alerted the Arlanda Air Rescue Center," says Johansson. The Swedes alerted their first helicopters at 1.58, and the first took off from Visby at 2.35.

Commander of the Archipelago Sea Coast Guard, Commodore Raimo Tiilikainen, who led the rescue operations in Turku, takes full responsibility for what happened and confirms that it took 30 minutes before the Estonia message went to Sweden.

HS <snipped>

JAIC confirms:

Helsinki Radio had mentioned a strange wave of interference, which prevented the officers of ships near Estonia from contacting mainland Finland and Sweden.

*via a handheld 'walkie-talkie' device, rather than the much stronger VHF or even MF installation on the bridge - having taken over from Ainsalu who told Silja Europa that he couldn't give the position because of 'blackout' (of the electrical system, which should have kicked in the emergency generator plus there should have been a battery to maintain power in the bridge whilst out)

 

[JayUtah]

Correction of misinformation: the EPIRB's were HRU-activated free float automatic, and had been checked the week before by electricians. Rockwater divers confirm the EPRIB cages were empty and retrieved an HRU, indicating it triggered correctly when immersed.

So is there just an entirely different alternate reality that lives between your ears? Asking for a friend...

 

[JayUtah]

Hydrostatic Release Unit - do look up how they work.

We have. That's how we know you're lying.

 

[JayUtah]

<shrug>

Trying for another hundred pages, I guess.

 

[JayUtah]

You haven't produced a single scrap of evidence to back up your claim. You are claiming your word tops that of IMO Chapter 3 regulations.

We discussed the regulations at length. You were surprisingly quiet during that discussion. You're claiming your fantasy tops observable fact.

 

[Andy_Ross]

You have been told and have been shown that it was an IMO Chapter 3 regulation [1988] to have an automatic free float EPIRB.

Why do you persist in being obtuse in face of hard documentary evidence? Do you believe your word of the top off your head cancels an irrefutable fact?

Liar
You have been shown that what you are claiming is a lie
Everything you have written in this post is a lie.
That you have been shown it's all lies but you keep repeating it tells me you are doing it deliberately.

 

[JayUtah]

Only part of the breach is above the waterline.

Asked and answered. We discussed at length the collision scenarios between submarines and surface ships. Your physics understanding was insufficient.

Are you now claiming there is no tear in the hull, because you say so?

Obvious straw man. Obvious bait. Obvious Gish gallop.

 

[Andy_Ross]

You haven't produced a single scrap of evidence to back up your claim. You are claiming your word tops that of IMO Chapter 3 regulations.

IMO regulations at the time allowed Estonia to carry manual activation beacons until 1999

You have been shown this repeatedly. Regulations have been posted previously in the thread, they were gone in to in great detail.

You are deliberately dishonest and repeating lies

You are repeating a deliberate lie

 

[Andy_Ross]

Only part of the breach is above the waterline.

Are you now claiming there is no tear in the hull, because you say so?

It was above the waterline
How does a submarine make a hole anywhere near the waterline?

 

[Jack by the hedge]

SE times.

00:23 Mayday call from Estonia
00.52 Mariehamns Sea Rescue Sub-central calls Stockholm Rescue Central
around 1:00 Britt-Marie Seibold (Night Editor at TT) calls the Swedish Sea Rescue Central to ask about a fishing boat in trouble outside Öland. While on that call, she gets informed about Estonia.
01:31 TT puts out their first flash message. This also reaches pagers at several key persons in the government as previously quoted in this thread.

Instead of relying on your guesses, we can check what was actually reported.

The analysis group looked into this, and reports about it already in chapter 2.

In Rosenbad in Stockholm, a thank-you party for the outgoing moderate government is taking place during the night. Around midnight, the number of guests thins out, but the event is still going on as the clock approaches half past two. At 01.31 the pagers of several of the party participants start ringing. Lars Christiansson and Per Zetterquist, the press manager and press secretary of the Cabinet Committee, among others, are reached in this way by the first TT telegram that Estonia is feared to have sunk.

Prime Minister Carl Bildt and State Secretary Peter Egardt are about to leave Rosenbad when they receive the news that a ferry has sunk.

Thanks for all of these helpful items for the timeline.

It helps sink conspiracy theories about Bildt having been aware suspiciously early about what was going on. I shall feel free to ignore conspiracist speculation that Bildt knew just after midnight built on nothing but one person having left the party by then and a vague optinion that Swedes like to get to bed early.

 

[Jack by the hedge]

You have been told and have been shown that it was a ...

Kannad 406F.

Your opinion is not evidence.

 

[W.D.Clinger]

As for the US defences, they didn't pick up on the terrorist threat at all - obviously things must have been very wrong if a bunch of semi-literate Egyptians just out of elementary Flying School could spring such a surprise.

Only one of the 19 hijackers was Egyptian.

That Egyptian, Mohamed Atta, studied engineering at Cairo University, specializing in architecture, and graduated in 1990. He went on to postgraduate study at the Hamburg University of Technology. He earned a commercial pilot's license, and was piloting the first of the four planes that was hijacked and crashed on September 11, 2001.

You should probably stop guessing stuff. You're really bad at it. So are most people, but some of us have the sense to realize that.

A select few are really bad at just about everything.

A even more select few, while being really bad at just about everything, interpret the breadth of their non-expertise as proof their expertise is unusually wide-ranging, making them experts on just about everything.

 

[Jack by the hedge]

As for the US defences, they didn't pick up on the terrorist threat at all - obviously things must have been very wrong if a bunch of semi-literate Egyptians just out of elementary Flying School could spring such a surprise.

I recommend sticking to being almost entirely wrong about one topic at a time.

 

[Vixen]

Liar
You have been shown that what you are claiming is a lie
Everything you have written in this post is a lie.
That you have been shown it's all lies but you keep repeating it tells me you are doing it deliberately.

You are wrong.

"There are two categories of EPIRBs, Category I and II. The EPIRBs themselves are actually the same between CAT I and II; the type refers to a difference in the mounting bracket. A Category I EPIRB is enclosed in a plastic housing that gets mounted to the outside of the boat. If the boat were to sink underwater, a hydrostatic release allows the cover to pop off, and the EPIRB will float to the surface of the water and automatically turn on to start broadcasting a signal. A Category II EPIRB is in a manual bracket mounted inside the boat for easy access in an emergency. If the boat sinks with an EPIRB in a Category II bracket, the EPIRB will not turn on and will sink to the bottom without ever sending a signal. "

Survival at Sea. com

Q.E.D.
::

The ESTONIA was equipped with two modern EPIRB buoys (Emergency Position Indicating Radio Beacons) of type Kannad 406 F.
The last check of the radio beacons was reported to have been made about one week prior to the disaster by the radio operator. The check confirmed that the EPIRBs were in full working order and it has to be assumed that both were left in "switched-on" condition after the test.
Nevertheless, no signals from the two buoys were received in the course of the rescue operation.

estonia ferry disaster

The technical expert who presented to the JAIC confirmed they were free float automatically activated EPIRBS with HRU.

The Commission gave high priority to the emergency buoys and Asser Koivisto valued their role. "This is the rescue system I trust the most," he told journalists Anders Jörle and Anders Hellberg, who published the book Disaster Course: Estonia's Road to Destruction (1997).

There, Koivisto says that the emergency buoys were sandy and really looked like they had floated ashore.

"But both transmitters were turned off," he says.

 

[P.J. Denyer]

To Use Autopark
When driving, follow these steps to allow Autopark to maneuver Model S into a parking space:

While driving slowly on a public road, monitor the instrument panel to determine when Autopark has detected a parking space. The instrument panel will display a parking icon if the vehicle detects a potential parking spot.

This quote from a modern Tesla Manual proves that my 1994 Vauxhall Cavalier had auto parking.

Tesla . com

 

[JayUtah]

You are wrong.

No he isn't. You just can't comprehend English.

The technical expert who presented to the JAIC confirmed they were free float automatically activated EPIRBS with HRU.

I've asked you repeatedly to summarize for the group what I said previously about Koivisto when you brought him up. You haven't done so. This means you either don't remember, which means there's little point in trying to get you to pay attention to it again. Or you do remember, and you just want to pretend you haven't been asked. ETA the third option: you don't care.

Either way I'm puzzled at why your attempt to challenge the results of professional investigations relies so much on obvious misrepresentation.

 

[Jack by the hedge]

This quote from a modern Tesla Manual proves that my 1994 Vauxhall Cavalier had auto parking.

Tesla . com

Similarly, my 1994 Mazda is exempt from requiring a catalytic converter, even though you can easily Google stuff claiming all new cars from August 1992 had to have cats.

In a curious parallel to the EPIRB situation, some models of car had this exemption for a number of years during the transition period to the new UK cat test regulations.

 

[Andy_Ross]

You are wrong.



Survival at Sea. com

Q.E.D.
::

estonia ferry disaster

The technical expert who presented to the JAIC confirmed they were free float automatically activated EPIRBS with HRU.

We know exactly what model they were

They were manual activation only

If your expert says they were turned off he's confirming manual only activation. There's no way to turn the immersion sensor off.

Why do you repeat the same lies just a couple of posts after you were shown to be telling lies already?