Cont: The Sinking of MS Estonia: Case Reopened Part V

[JesseCuster]

I know that now. I misread it as 'Ethane'.

Ethanedynamite is how Google automatically translates (mistranslates) that page from Finnish to dynamite. You didn't misread it, you relied upon an autotranslation that got it wrong.

 

[Marras]

I know that now. I misread it as 'Ethane'.

This is the weirdest of your misreadings to the date. You see a common everyday word and think that it is a rare one that I don't think I have ever used after I passed the high school chemistry courses.

 

[zooterkin]

Ethanedynamite is how Google automatically translates (mistranslates) that page from Finnish to dynamite. You didn't misread it, you relied upon an autotranslation that got it wrong.

You’re surely not suggesting that Vixen is lying about understanding Finnish?

 

[Here_to_learn]

Let's take a look at Vixens posts about Heiwa/Aftonbladet. I'll start with this post:

...And his copy of Aftonbladet appears to come from exactly the same digital newspaper site that Here To Learn directed us to (or was it Marras).


Aftonbladet retains the copyright and they were correctly credited, as does Eesti Paiva Lehti re the Moik article.

If Bjorkman was to quote Shakespeare, I will give credit to Shakespeare.

Now, at this stage Vixen could have gone back and verified what I actually posted. But instead we get a long list of posts:

The only Aftonbladet articles from Heiwa - and they were accredited to Heiwa - were the ones relating to Svensson on 28/29 Sept 1994.

Any others would have been direct from their own webpage.

Those two Aftonbladet articles about Svensson on 28 and 29 Sept 1994 were important.

As I have said the only two Aftonbladet articles from Heiwa were those two Svensson ones.

If you recall, a poster provided the Swedish digital newspapers link and the ellipses were also there, so that is obvs where Bjorkman got the articles himself.

Ah, but was that really what I did?

As I said the two Aftonbladet articles about Svensson came from Heiwa and it shows the same ellipse excerpt style that shows on the digital newspaper library.

Most Swedish newspapers seem to be behind the paywall but the ones I've cited would be to their direct website together with the url.

Almost as if newspapers that focus on quality and preserving history spend money on make archives available. They then charge for access to it, to cover some of that costs. For example Dagens Nyheter and Svenska Dagbladet that I've referenced several time.

Other papers do not make their archive available. For example Aftonbladet.

The digital library Aftonbladet only cites highlights, also. As I do not speak Estonian or Swedish, I think it was jolly useful that Bjorkman made these articles available.

The article about Svensson saving eight or nine people on 28.9.1994 and 29.9.1994 are clearly sourced to Bjorkman.

They are the only two Aftonbladet articles that come from his website.

What? Heiwa's piece is in English (or it could be auto translate, as I do for Swedish). So what was reproduced here was exactly as was there.

As I have said twice now. The digital newspaper library shows exactly the same style of ellipses, so that is where he got it from

It does, does it? Interesting, let's see what I actually posted:

I've been trying to find that Aftonbladet article anywhere online, but have failed. The only place it's available to view is to go and visit the National Library of Sweden in Stockholm, where it can be checked out for free.

However, their archive can be searched online for free, and you get an small amount of text back, as well as the date the article was published.

What I can say is that I cannot find the first article that Björkman claims is in the paper from the 28th. I've searched for several phrases, and cannot get a hit in any newspaper published in Sweden. Note that there is a law in Sweden that requires all printers to deliver a copy to the library.

However, I do get hit from the second article, the one published on the afternoon of the 29th.

This is what a search looks like, for "estonia" in Aftonbladet on the 28th.

So, to summarize - we can say that what Björkman claims was published in Aftonbladet on the 28th does not match what can be found in the official archive.

Oops, seems that the archives does not support Heiwa, or Vixen, but that seems to have been forgotten in the last reset.

 

[Mojo]

I deleted one message because I noted in retrospect the OP had called me a moron.

[Looks to see who that was]

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=352675

I hope the name-calling doesn’t escalate to fisticuffs.

 

[Marras]

'Etana' is 'snail'.

In the name of pointless pedantry, I have to correct myself.

Technically 'etana' is 'slug' and 'kotilo' is 'snail'.

In everyday usage 'etana' is used for both snails and slugs.

 

[Mojo]

To clarify: I was referring to post #1534, which was quoted and replied to by both JayUtah and MarkCorrigan (sorry, missed that initially).

Neither of those replies called you a moron. Or had anything to do with Rome.

I now see that you appear to have deleted post #1526, too. It seems that no one replied to that one.
Was that 'the Rome post'? Who is this OP who called you a moron? IIRC, you are the OP of this thread, are you not?

1526 was quoted here: http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=13724272#post13724272

 

[Axxman300]

I presume even military supplies have to be accounted for.

Wouldn't a black-operation use black-market plastic explosives? Or just steal some from one of the stockpiles of the former Eastern Bloc like everyone else?

Doesn't matter, no explosives were used nor found.

 

[junkshop]

1526 was quoted here: http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=13724272#post13724272

Thanks.

 

[Vixen]

So do you stand by the claim that Sweden admitted to having committed enforced disappearance, as defined in the Rome Statute, against two Egyptians?

IMV that is the de facto case.

 

[Vixen]

If you want to build anything underground, you need to blow up the granite. That's simple. The folks who are building a large house near my home have been blasting the foundations for two weeks now.

But Vixen is really wrong when she claims that explosives are easily available in Finland. Laki vaarallisten kemikaalien ja räjähteiden käsittelyn turvallisuudesta ("Law on safe handling of dangerous chemicals and explosives", https://www.finlex.fi/fi/laki/ajantasa/2005/20050390) states that only three kinds of explosives can be handed over to private individuals:

1) fireworks that have been approved for private use

2) blank shells intended to be used with starter pistols

3) signal and illumination flares that have been approved

There's also the exception that ammunition may be handed over to people who have a licensed weapon.

The Panostajalaki ("Demolition certificate law", https://www.finlex.fi/fi/laki/ajantasa/2016/20160423) then lists what certificates are needed for doing different demolition jobs.

[Edited to add: those are the current laws, back in 1994 the laws were essentially the same, but for example, a wider range of fireworks were considered appropriate for private use.]

Marras, thanks for the law update. The builders in my family were the war veteran generation and pre-EU rules. All of the men fought in the Continuation War (and my grandfather in the civil war, the winter war and the continuation war). My grandfather built the barn on our land which is still standing solid after 100 years. The main farmhouse buildings, stables, barns and sauna are also still standing (although the sauna roof is covered in moss and long disused, but which I used as a child). The brothers built all four of their houses on their own islands in the archipelago. They all knew how to handle explosives from their military days.


OK, so I appreciate the substances are no longer 'readily available' although I am pretty sure registered/licensed builders (as they were) probably still have easy access.

 

[Vixen]

Ethanedynamite is how Google automatically translates (mistranslates) that page from Finnish to dynamite. You didn't misread it, you relied upon an autotranslation that got it wrong.

Stop misattributing and misrepresenting me.

 

[Vixen]

In the name of pointless pedantry, I have to correct myself.

Technically 'etana' is 'slug' and 'kotilo' is 'snail'.

In everyday usage 'etana' is used for both snails and slugs.

And as you know these animal names are used endlessly in brand names (as this was).

The marketing guys might want to create an association in the consumer's mind with nature but it doesn't necessary always happen.

 

[zooterkin]

Stop misattributing and misrepresenting me.

Then how did you read it as 'ethane' instead of as the Finnish for 'snail' (or 'slug'), especially when 'snail dynamite' had only just been mentioned in the thread?

 

[Vixen]

Wouldn't a black-operation use black-market plastic explosives? Or just steal some from one of the stockpiles of the former Eastern Bloc like everyone else?

Doesn't matter, no explosives were used nor found.

That is not the point. The issue is, something that looked like an IED was spotted by the German shipbuilder experts on the Rockwater video tapes. Some expert military explosives experts were appointed to investigate this. Enter Braidwood and Fellows. They presented their professional opinion to the JAIC via Hummel for Werft Meyer.

It really matters not a jot who, how or where these presumed IED came from.

You can't just handwave it away as 'oh it's a conspiracy theory!'

 

[zooterkin]

And as you know these animal names are used endlessly in brand names (as this was).

The marketing guys might want to create an association in the consumer's mind with nature but it doesn't necessary always happen.

You don't half spout some bollocks! It's nothing to do with 'nature', it's to do with slowness.

 

[Vixen]

You’re surely not suggesting that Vixen is lying about understanding Finnish?

You do enjoy slurring me.

 

[Vixen]

You don't half spout some bollocks! It's nothing to do with 'nature', it's to do with slowness.

Really? You don't say!

 

[MarkCorrigan]

IMV that is the de facto case.

Your view is simply wrong.

 

[Andy_Ross]

I presume even military supplies have to be accounted for.

So elite special forces teams have to pretend to be builders and get civilian licenses for dynamite and try to use it in place of the proper explosives for the job and use improvised devices?

No wonder they didn't explode and were left on the wreck.

How did the bow get blown off if the charges were still there?