Cont: The Sinking of MS Estonia: Case Reopened Part V

[Vixen]

Reversing the burden of proof and argument from silence. You are the one claiming a cover story had to be invented to conceal the real reason Svensson's medal was awarded. You provide no evidence that he was awarded it for anything other than what was stated. The supposition you supply instead of evidence is rendered moot by the awarding of the same medal in other cases without disclosing the reason. They could have simply done the same thing in Svensson's case if it was awarded for something they did not want to reveal.

Helicopter OH-HVG saved 37

During its first rescue flight OH-HVG inspected four liferafts and rescued four persons, who were taken to the SILJA SYMPHONY. The crew of OH-HVG noted that the darkness made it difficult to see people floating in lifejackets even if searchlights were used. The use of only one rescue man proved to be slow and dangerous, and at 0445 hrs OH-HVG flew to Turku to pick up a second rescue man. On the same trip, it flew the air operations co-ordinator to the scene. During the second flight, from 0515 hrs to 0915 hrs, several rafts were inspected. Forty survivors were rescued, and one body was retrieved.

JAIC 7.5.5


Q97 saved 15

On its first flight Q 97 rescued six survivors from the keels of two upside-down lifeboats. As instructed by the OSC, Q 97 flew them to Utö, where it landed at 0500 hrs. During the stop the crew called ARCC Arlanda, informing about the situation at the scene and asking for as many helicopters as possible.

After refuelling, Q 97 returned at 0540 hrs to the scene and rescued nine survivors, five from a liferaft and four from the water. They were in very poor condition. The pilot decided to take them directly to Hanko on the mainland. Q 97 landed at a sports field in Hanko at 0735 hrs, and local residents quickly summoned ambulances to the field. The crew was advised to fly to the Hanko coast guard station landing field, where they could refuel.

JAIC 7.5.5 ibid

As you can see, the conditions were dangerous and challenging for all of the rescue men. That is why I was wondering if Svensson's medal was for something over and beyond the obvious bravery as shown in JAIC 7.5.5 and as reported in the Aftonbladet. Note, too, how JAIC points out that Swedish helicopter Q97, "As instructed by the OSC, Q 97 flew them [the survivors and deceased] to Utö". As instructed by the On Scene Commander.

There is a strong likelihood there was a further eight or nine who were taken to Huddinge, who were later removed from the records and the survivors list downsized, accordingly.

From Official Riksarkivet page:

Finnish Sea rescue helicopter OH-HVG 37
Swedish Air Force helicopter Q 97 15

 

[Vixen]

...

 

[JayUtah]

Helicopter OH-HVG saved 37

Yeah, you didn't actually address my point. You just repeated yours. You're ever so anxious to mire yourself down in the alphabet soup of helicopter designations. You aren't examining the core fallacy of your claim, which is ever so much simpler.

 

[Vixen]

You do realise, don't you Vixen, that this particular sub-thread all goes back to your original assertion that




Yet you're now moving the goalposts and claiming it purely relates to the recovery of bodies.

And in any case, if the sole aim was the recovery of bodies, it would have been functionally impossible for any dive team to have recovered any more bodies than those which were either visible or behind ingress points on the upper decks. There's effectively no way in which any dive team would have been able to roam through the interior of the ship locating and recovering the bodies of those who'd died deeper inside the vessel. It would have been crazily unsafe to have tried to do so. And a sizeable proportion of the "missing, presumed dead" passengers/crew wouldn't even have been within the wreck in any case - they'd have drowned or frozen to death in open water, and they would have been carried away into the vast open seas, never to be seen again.

And with that in mind, do you perhaps see any valid reason (and yes, there is a valid reason, even though you probably don't see it) why the respective national governments might have found it politically and ethically questionable (at best) to sponsor and pay for an operation which recovered only a small proportion of the missing-presumed-dead passengers/crew?

If you had read the Rockwater Report, you would have been aware that it assessed that up to 200 could have been recovered, in their opinion, taking into account feasibility and viability.

Circa 97 bodies were recovered from the sea anyway, so how does that differ from bringing out the ones stacked int eh ship's stairwells? The Swedish government claimed all of the bodies remaining were inside the vessel but Jutta Rabes said that her ROV picked up at least twenty-five images scattered around the seabed. Bodies have washed up at various shores. Of course, the bodies could have been recovered. Maybe not all but at least some, perhaps even half of them.

Or perhaps radioactivity is the fear. Hence the concrete attempt.

 

[zooterkin]

Helicopter OH-HVG saved 37

JAIC 7.5.5


Q97 saved 15

And? Who said it was just about the numbers rescued?

As you can see, the conditions were dangerous and challenging for all of the rescue men. That is why I was wondering if Svensson's medal was for something over and beyond the obvious bravery as shown in JAIC 7.5.5 and as reported in the Aftonbladet.

Above and beyond the bravery already noted? Why does there need to be?

Note, too, how JAIC points out that Swedish helicopter Q97, "As instructed by the OSC, Q 97 flew them [the survivors and deceased] to Utö". As instructed by the On Scene Commander.

And did you notice the quote in the next paragraph: "The pilot decided to take them directly to Hanko on the mainland."

There is a strong likelihood there was a further eight or nine who were taken to Huddinge, who were later removed from the records and the survivors list downsized, accordingly.

No. There is no likelihood at all. You don't have a shred of evidence for that, do you?

 

[JayUtah]

If you had read the Rockwater Report, you would have been aware that it assessed that up to 200 could have been recovered...

Did you even read the post you're responding to? We're not talking about the recovery of bodies.

You claimed "it is said" that the ship could have been raised with manageable cost and effort. I want to know who was saying that. I want to read their engineering rationale and cost estimation. Are you able to provide that, or are you going to continue trying to distract?

As to the feasibility estimate of recovering bodies, this was discussed at length early in the thread. It has nothing to do with the point we're making today.

 

[Vixen]

Could you please READ that official document.

I mean, read what they write. The text, not just the lists of names.

I have already two times told you what specific part you need to read. Page 2(3) of report for helicopter Y74, the fourth paragraph of "Genomförande"

You have refused to do so. I'm starting to believe that you can't read Swedish at all.

That paragraph tells you that Svensson rescued people while on Y74. The "Ytb SEK" that they winch down is Svensson. They tell that earlier on the section.

So please, read the texts that you yourself post as sources.

I know four languages and that is enough for me. Swedish is not one of them, although I did a short course once. I can generally recognise the drift simply because it is so similar to German and even English.

Can you point out where in the above report it specifically says that Svensson was awarded a Gold Medal of Merit with Sword for the Y74 incident?

 

[JayUtah]

I know four languages and that is enough for me. Swedish is not one of them, although I did a short course once. I can generally recognise the drift simply because it is so similar to German and even English.

Are you claiming competence in Swedish translation or not?

Can you point out where in the above report it specifically says that Svensson was awarded a Gold Medal of Merit with Sword for the Y74 incident?

Straw man.

 

[Vixen]

You have been bringing up the negative stereotypes about the Swedish. That there is a stereotype that Swedes are sissy gays has nothing to do with Estonia, but for some reason you thought it necessary to mention that and to say that it is a Finnish thing to joke about it.

Joking about gay Swedes isn't a universal Finnish thing. In my experience the only adults who do that are those who think both that being Swedish and being gay are bad. Spreading those jokes is a kid and teen thing and people grow out of it in their twenties the latest.

It sounds to me like you are dancing on the line with a "Some say Swedes are gay sissies. I think Swedes are wonderful, but hey, did you know that some people say Swedes are gay sissies?" performance.

What you post shapes the opinions of other posters. You bring up negative stereotypes of Swedes when there is no reason to do it and people will believe that you hold them.

The advice that I gave you before on anti-semitism holds here too: if you don't want people to think that you hate Swedes, don't post negative stereotypes about them.

I was simply pointing out a common stereotype and I did say that it was dying out. Where did Tom of Finland come from after all? See here if you don't believe me:

https://www.quora.com/Why-are-Swedish-males-sterotypical-depicted-as-gay-and-effeminate-in-Finland

There is nothing wrong with looking at social mores and kinship structures.

 

[Vixen]

Here's how the alternate reality seems to work:

Rescuing people by helicopter is like golf. If you rescue people from someone else's helicopter then that's like playing a shot with someone else's golf ball. Even if you get a hole in one, it doesn't officially count.

So Svensson officially rescued one person from Y64. And rescued lots more from Y74 but they don't officially count because due to the official rules of officially rescuing people it wasn't officially his helicopter.

Since Svensson was officially awarded an official medal for officially rescuing lots of people, he must have secretly rescued them on another flight on his own official helicopter.

I'm sorry, but those are the official rules. If you doubt them then I guess you're just not as gullible as I need you to be.

I didn't say it didn't count. Fact is, the rescues were ascribed to the specific helicopter (team), not the individual, and that is as it should be as they were team efforts, each part of the team, an essential one.

It was nice Svensson dived in after that guy.

 

[Vixen]

Your lies about it have been central to the conspiracy theory you’ve been pushing.

I don't think you know what a lie is. For you, it is just a cheap meaningless insult if you disagree with someone.

 

[JayUtah]

I was simply pointing out a common stereotype and I did say that it was dying out.

Where did you say that? I followed the thread chain backwards and I see no attempt on your part to mitigate any stereotype. I agree with Marras: the impression I get from your overall posting is that you dislike Sweden and the Swedes. If that is not your intent, then perhaps curtail the irrelevant digs against them.

 

[Vixen]

Well, it is difficult to see how Vixen can rehabilitate her rep.

“We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.”

― Oscar Wilde, Lady Windermere's Fan

Or should that be 'jacktars'?

 

[Vixen]

Yeah, you didn't actually address my point. You just repeated yours. You're ever so anxious to mire yourself down in the alphabet soup of helicopter designations. You aren't examining the core fallacy of your claim, which is ever so much simpler.

Your point was already asked and answered insofar that Svensson having already told Aftonbladet and being hailed a hero, no need for anonymity.

 

[JayUtah]

Your point was already asked and answered insofar that Svensson having already told Aftonbladet and being hailed a hero, no need for anonymity.

No need for a cover story. Do you have a reference to Aftonbladet on this point that isn't from Anders Björkman?

 

[Here_to_learn]

I've been trying to find that Aftonbladet article anywhere online, but have failed. The only place it's available to view is to go and visit the National Library of Sweden in Stockholm, where it can be checked out for free.

However, their archive can be searched online for free, and you get an small amount of text back, as well as the date the article was published.

What I can say is that I cannot find the first article that Björkman claims is in the paper from the 28th. I've searched for several phrases, and cannot get a hit in any newspaper published in Sweden. Note that there is a law in Sweden that requires all printers to deliver a copy to the library.

However, I do get hit from the second article, the one published on the afternoon of the 29th.

This is what a search looks like, for "estonia" in Aftonbladet on the 28th.

So, to summarize - we can say that what Björkman claims was published in Aftonbladet on the 28th does not match what can be found in the official archive.

 

[Vixen]

And? Who said it was just about the numbers rescued?


Above and beyond the bravery already noted? Why does there need to be?




And did you notice the quote in the next paragraph: "The pilot decided to take them directly to Hanko on the mainland."

No. There is no likelihood at all. You don't have a shred of evidence for that, do you?

Hanko was one of the designated sites as instructed by the On Scene Commander. It had a hospital with a specialist fracture unit.

Why would it have been the highest medal in the land? The non-war military equivalent of the Victoria Cross. It seems disproportionate.

What about Olle Moberg who heroically saved Svensson? (I am not being sardonic, here. It is a genuine question. I want to understand.)

 

[Vixen]

Did you even read the post you're responding to? We're not talking about the recovery of bodies.

You claimed "it is said" that the ship could have been raised with manageable cost and effort. I want to know who was saying that. I want to read their engineering rationale and cost estimation. Are you able to provide that, or are you going to continue trying to distract?

As to the feasibility estimate of recovering bodies, this was discussed at length early in the thread. It has nothing to do with the point we're making today.

Rockwater in their report.

 

[Jack by the hedge]

I didn't say it didn't count. Fact is, the rescues were ascribed to the specific helicopter...

Fact is, the medal was awarded to a specific human. Not to a helicopter.

And it was awarded for the rescues we know about. The number of rescues ascribed to a helicopter do not define which people deserve medals.

If you're not claiming that his rescues made while operating from Y74 don't count, then why are you using his medal as if it was evidence for other rescues we don't know about?

That is what you're doing, is it not? You're belabouring the point that Y64 is credited with only one rescue to try to persuade us that Svensson must have rescued more people with Y64 than are admitted to. Right? Or is that not your point, in which case, what is?

 

[JayUtah]

Rockwater in their report.

Which part of their report specifically discusses the engineering feasibility and cost estimation of raising the vessel? Name the section. Be specific, please.